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Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation







I have read and studied 6th edition, and I would like to think that I have a decent comprehension of the new rules. My roomate has been my only opponent and he largely accepts my view on the rules.
Soon I am to make war at the local hobby shop, and this frightens me: these players are notorious for going online and building an army completely out of cheese. Warmachine was my shortist lived hobby ever because of how rigged amies got at this shop. My CSM+IG list is not crap. I built it during 5th edition, so with some tweaking it seems to be effective.
Any advice? Not so much about army building but rather general stratigies that work now and didn't before or vice versa.
Things that I have already noticed:
Flyers got alot better and require skyfire or another flyer to hit if you want more than a 1/6 chance
Hull points nerfed vehicles/ they are super easy to hit in CC but easier to confer a cover save to
It takes a lot more turns to assault out of a non-assault vehicle
AP 2 and AP1 are even better in anti-vehicle role
wound allocation works different (look out sir is hilarious)
some special rules are confered to an entire unit even if only 1 model has the rule
overwatch
grenades can do more
characters and challenges
you may now deny your opponent's unit the highest cover save available but it limits the potential amount of models taken out of play

Did I miss anything big?Any edge you can give me would be great! Especially new dirty tricks. Thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/22 19:26:59


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






The biggest change is more rock/paper/scissors matchups. 5th edition mostly settled on MSU mech lists, but 6th is going in all directions at once. For example, Necron flyerspam will dominate Razorback spam (the Razorbacks can't kill anything effectively, and tesla wrecks light vehicles fast), but can't kill fast enough to deal with a horde army that just sits on all the objectives and calmly removes a few models every turn until the game ends. Demons with flamer spam wreck some armies in a single shooting phase, but GK bring warp quake and auto-table them. Etc.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation







So haveing a "balanced" army is not worth it? Just hope that my spam is the kind of spam that beats his spam?


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





Oregon, USA

Run a balanced army anyway. That way you have the moral high ground You will be beaten down by cheese-mongers on a regular basis, but at least you won't be one yourself.

It's always more satisfying for me to table a cheesemonger with a non-cheese army. The look on their faces is generally priceless

Either that or try to out-cheese them in the name of winning at any cost

Your option. Alternatively, find a different bunch to play against.

I'm surprised that you found WM armies to be 'rigged'. Any specific examples, as i've thus far found most WM forces to be fairly equal. Khador lags a little in power, i think, but i've not really run across any lists i'd consider particularly broken. Could be that the crowd i play WM with aren't TFG's of course


The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




No, having a balanced army is way worth it. A balanced army brings tools to beat any of those lists.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation







I was running Khador. I tried a bunch of different army lists, tactics, and casters, but my loses were high. It seemed to me that all of the other factions just had a crushing synergy that I could not match. Yes, I could have changed factions, but I lost interest because IMHO It didn`t matter how skilled you were; your army won the game for you. Its too much like card game for my taste. I would love to complain more about warmachine, but I fear that I am dangerously close to derailing my own thread.

I will not give ground to this hobby shop. For one simple reason: the mortified looks on their faces when I do beat them. And I concur that it is far more rewarding facing off against cheese rather than a bad list. It hones your skill and forces you to adapt.
And hell ya I will assume the moral high ground. Winning is not so important to me that I will forsake what I feel Warhammer is really all about: creativity and above all pride in your army. The same army that you have spent innumerous hours composing, modeling, and painting. I play with my army; they just took somebody else's.



 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

A balanced army is one that has Rock, Paper, and Scissors in its list, multiples of each ideally.


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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in us
Been Around the Block




And your paper gets taken out by their scissors, your scissors just collide to no effect, and they have so many scissors your rock cant possibly break them all in time haha.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






I wrote a comprehensive article on the "metagame" of 40k just last week. To avoid what would be an lengthy cut and paste job, I'll just link you.

http://rhetorical40k.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/lessons-of-6th-edition-metagame-and-what-you-need-in-a-list/


2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





Oregon, USA

 lordrevege wrote:
I was running Khador. I tried a bunch of different army lists, tactics, and casters, but my loses were high. It seemed to me that all of the other factions just had a crushing synergy that I could not match. Yes, I could have changed factions, but I lost interest because IMHO It didn`t matter how skilled you were; your army won the game for you. Its too much like card game for my taste. I would love to complain more about warmachine, but I fear that I am dangerously close to derailing my own thread.

I will not give ground to this hobby shop. For one simple reason: the mortified looks on their faces when I do beat them. And I concur that it is far more rewarding facing off against cheese rather than a bad list. It hones your skill and forces you to adapt.
And hell ya I will assume the moral high ground. Winning is not so important to me that I will forsake what I feel Warhammer is really all about: creativity and above all pride in your army. The same army that you have spent innumerous hours composing, modeling, and painting. I play with my army; they just took somebody else's.




We can take the WM discussion to PM if you like. I run Khador, Menoth and Searforge Rhulic Mercs. There are also some great players and advisers in the Wm/Hordes forums.

Good for you. I play non-cheesy, and it's a lot more fun for me, even if i do get face-rolled sometimes by a Waac.

The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
 
   
Made in ca
Nasty Nob






 Peregrine wrote:
The biggest change is more rock/paper/scissors matchups. 5th edition mostly settled on MSU mech lists, but 6th is going in all directions at once. For example, Necron flyerspam will dominate Razorback spam (the Razorbacks can't kill anything effectively, and tesla wrecks light vehicles fast), but can't kill fast enough to deal with a horde army that just sits on all the objectives and calmly removes a few models every turn until the game ends. Demons with flamer spam wreck some armies in a single shooting phase, but GK bring warp quake and auto-table them. Etc.


I havent played any necron cheese yet, but I was under the impression that tesla wrecked large mobs. Are the extra hits not that important?

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Fearless units in cc do no longer get additional wounds if they loose on round of cc.
That's definitely bad for elite armies like DW when facing horde armies.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster





The Warp

I haven't played any tournaments since 5th and have been finishing up the painting on my plasma/melta vet list for a tournament on the 2nd of march. I can almost garentee that 3/5 armies I will be playing against will be necron flying circus lists. The other two will be grey knights paladin/purifier spam and mech ig lists similar to mine. These are the broken net lists and always show up on droves at tournaments. You'll probably even see someone bring that new dark eldar beast master net list and the ravewing banner of devastation 4 shots a pop from 24" highly mobile annoying list as well.

I hate to break it to you but unless you bring a green tide army to throw your opponents las cannon plasma and melta spam off you'll need to bring one of the above mentioned lists to be competitive. At least in my local area these people don't play around - particularly when prizes are involved.

If it upsets you, don't play tournaments. It's all about minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths for as cheap as you can so you can have as much anti tank and heavy infantry you can.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






I haven't played any tournaments since 5th and have been finishing up the painting on my plasma/melta vet list for a tournament on the 2nd of march. I can almost garentee that 3/5 armies I will be playing against will be necron flying circus lists. The other two will be grey knights paladin/purifier spam and mech ig lists similar to mine. These are the broken net lists and always show up on droves at tournaments. You'll probably even see someone bring that new dark eldar beast master net list and the ravewing banner of devastation 4 shots a pop from 24" highly mobile annoying list as well.

I hate to break it to you but unless you bring a green tide army to throw your opponents las cannon plasma and melta spam off you'll need to bring one of the above mentioned lists to be competitive. At least in my local area these people don't play around - particularly when prizes are involved.

If it upsets you, don't play tournaments. It's all about minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths for as cheap as you can so you can have as much anti tank and heavy infantry you can.


I don't know where to begin. Cron Air is a rock--it's a good one. It's one you have to beat, but it is far from unbeatable. It is also not 3/5 players common. Even at the height of Cron popularity at the dawn of 6th, no more than 25% of players were bringing them (and in this 25%, very few shelled out the cash for 7+ flyers). If you think Purifier spam and Mech IG are broken, then you really haven't been playing competitive 6th edition. Or perhaps the reason you think Cron Air is so bad is because you are stuck in an outdated paradigm. Mech lists lose to Cron Air because it is a better version. Stop going all mech then.

6th edition has opened up a ton of new list possibilities--it hasn't closed the door as you claim. These days, I hardly ever see two identical builds at tourneys. I don't see lots of mech either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:02:47


2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Grey Templar wrote:
A balanced army is one that has Rock, Paper, and Scissors in its list, multiples of each ideally.



Actually, I think that it works better if you take 2/3rds rock and then 1/3rd scissors (or whatever you want to name things). Your rock can deal with scissors and other rocks fine, while you have the scissors to cover your weakness. Trying to take a little of everything leads to dilution but you don't have to take 100% of one thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:17:22


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





France

Just for thick people like me :
Rock = armour
Paper = hordes
Scissors = TEQ / Elite infantry

?

But then :
Fork = MC
Chair = flyers

?

   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Seb wrote:
Just for thick people like me :
Rock = armour
Paper = hordes
Scissors = TEQ / Elite infantry

?

But then :
Fork = MC
Chair = flyers

?


I don't think they have actual analogues, just useful from a theoretical perspective.

Although deathstrike missiles are definitely the dynamite.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Well, if all you want is a list of the changes, click here.

As for meta in general, while there were some things that made mech lists worse, there were also things that made mech lists better, so it's roughly a wash. Meanwhile, foot lists took it in the teeth with the new cover and wound allocation rules (amongst others). Also, don't even bother with assault anymore unless you're playing one of roughly one kind of list (deathwing).

As such, you take a 5th ed meta that focused on shooting and mech lists, and make shooting and mech lists better, and add fliers.



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Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

A good read Jgrand - spoilered for lenght but some interesting questions posed

Spoiler:
In the recent reader requests thread, we had a reply for a player who wanted our take on the state of the meta. The “meta” conversation is always tough to have. A major issue immediately arises, as players dispute a real global meta game. I happen to believe that there is a meta 40k, for one main reason–the Internet.

Players have easy access to up to the minute reports from major GTs. Many have running podcasts and streaming top tables thanks to some great volunteers. Lists from the top tables are out within days of the event. A crowded blog-o-sphere allows players to share their lists, thoughts, and battles. Forums allow players to posts army lists and get advice.

What I’m trying to say is that in the realm of competitive 40k, there are major sweeping trends. While 6th edition is relatively new, what’s hot and what’s not has definitely taken hold. In this post, I wanted to share my thoughts on what players need to survive in competitive 6th edition.

6th edition is a game of more extremes. In 5th, most armies had a competitive template or two. Almost all of these involved transports full of troops that spammed special weapons in an optimal configuration. These units were usually backed by fire support. 6th edition has destroyed this paradigm. Because of allies, we see more diverse lists. In addition, armies that were an afterthought (Tau, Eldar, Sisters, Chaos, ect) are now visible in various capacities. While armies like Tau and Eldar have glaring deficiencies on their own, but when supplemented with other armies, they can compete.

What the more extreme edition has given rise to is the idea that it is impossible to build a take all comers list. Plenty of players have advocated building a “rock” list with as few counters as possible and hoping for the best. While this attitude may work in smaller events, it is much harder to “rock” your way through a GT in which list diversity is extremely high. But how do you build a TAC list in 6th? Below I’ve come up with some essential questions that any hopeful list has to answer.

Can I deal with flyers?

There are two schools of thought on flyers–beat them or ignore them. As many recent tourney winners have shown, ignoring flyers is the easier route to take. This generally involves spamming bodies (lots of times including a Guard blob). Spamming models is extremely helpful in that it gives a player additional scoring units in a more objective based edition, greater survivability in a more killy edition, and a bigger footprint to clog up flyer lanes.

While it seems that the popularity of Cron Air has died down (the list is a “rock”), flyers have settled into a nice niche as a tool. Vendettas, Dakkajets, Stormravens, and Night Scythes are out there in a more limited capacity. All of which are easy enough to deal with using the above strategy.

The scariest flyer is undoubtedly the Helldrake. The Drake makes short work of infantry (mainly MEQ) and is less encumbered by limited directional change due to a 360 degree torrent flamer. Players (especially MEQ players) have to have an answer to 1-3 Drakes, as they are going to be very common.

Can I deal with Tzeentch Daemons?

Another major issue in 6th is Tzeentch Daemons. We all know the 27 Flamer, 27 Screamer lists. They are incredibly tough to handle (particularly for MEQ yet again). The answer to the Daemon question is screening bodies, rate of fire, and practice. Disposable bodies help (Guard blob again). Rate of fire is really the only way to down them (sigh…Guard blob). Finally, practice and solid deployment is key. Daemons will kill your models–lots of them. The key is dictating which models die. Yet again, we see why disposable, big footprint units have become so common.

Can I deal with lots of cheap bodies?

Speaking of lots of cheap bodies, can you deal with them when you face them? The ability to give 50 Guardsmen ATSKNF or fearless and buff them with psychic powers makes for an attractive unit. Aegis defense lines give these units a nice save. How do you take them down? Flamer templates!

Yes, packing some fast moving or torrent templates can be a nice answer to cover entrenched hoards, or hoards in general. Another way to deal with them is to hit them with an assault unit that they won’t beat in CC. While you may lose a unit for a while, the Troop choice blob costing 400+ points is usually a bigger loss to your opponent.

Can I deal with mass psychic powers?

Probably the hardest one on the list. Only three armies can shut out psykers–Eldar, SW, and Nids. While the occasional Prescience or Misfortune is not game breaking, playing a Nid list with tons of powers can be. If you can work a Rune Priest or Farseer into your list organically, do so. If not, you must have a plan to deal with a ton of Iron Armed models de-buffing your units.

Can I kill MEQ?

The tried and true question of 40k. MEQ are still very popular, and you need to be able to kill them. In 6th edition, you need to be prepared to take on 50+ of them.

Can I deal with light transports?

A lesser concern, but one that shouldn’t be shirked completely. It is important to realize that the answer to mech is no longer just “as much strength 8 as can fit in a list.” It is easier to kill vehicles in close combat, and fast moving Cavalry or Beast units usually have to goods to take out a few at once. Have a plan, but don’t stress this one like in 5th edition.

Can I deal with a blitz?

I personally like threat overload lists. Cavalry and Beasts are amazing in 6th, and players are taking them more. Does your list have an answer?

Though this criteria is a bit more vague, it is worth thinking about. Can you kill or speedbump fast units? Usually, having some bodies as a screen is a good start here.

What really scares my list?

It’s hard to make a list that doesn’t have a weakness. The key is creating a list that doesn’t have a common hard counter. For example, Tyranids fear Venom spam, especially with an attached Farseer. However, Venom spam isn’t common–it isn’t good now. The reason is that Venom spam loses 10/10 times to that Cron Air list. And if you are playing at a GT, chances are, Cron Air is attending.

Does the above situation mean that you can’t take Nids? Definitely not. Does it mean that a Flyrant and a Spore Pod or two with some shooty units is nice just in case? Definitely. Especially because these units both bolster the strength and diversity of the list, while simultaneously mitigating the lists “worst case scenario.”

The bottom line is that there will always be something that you fear. My Eldar/DE don’t want to run into Stermguard Pod Spam or 4 Podding Rune Priests. I know that while they are outliers, these lists are out there. Thus, I take two Warrior blobs that I can deploy spread out to mitigate damage.

Think about your worst match-ups and how you can deal with them. Look at it realistically. Don’t be overly pessimistic about bad match-ups, but don’t take them too lightly. Adjust accordingly.

In conclusion…

We are seeing a more foot based edition–for good reason. Bodies help mitigate the fact that units kill more. Bodies help beat Daemons, Flyers, and lots of other bad stuff. Bodies help take objectives. The Guard blob may be tired, but if you want to run MEQ, you need to seriously consider it. As for everyone else, having a screening unit is important. Ork Boyz do this incredibly well. As do Dark Eldar Warriors.

Will we see a shift back toward vehicles? I tend to think not. Players like non-meched lists because they are cheaper to build and transport. The game is built in a way in which the metal boxes of old no longer have a laundry list of clear-cut benefits. Mech hybrid? Sure. See the Battle for Salvation winner from last year for an example. Keep in mind, they also had a strong foot presence.

6th edition is a dawn of a new meta, but the aforementioned checklist of needs gives players a good starting point. As always, the best way to find out what works and doesn’t is to test out your lists. So, hit the tables!

What does the community think? Helpful, or not? Agree or disagree? In addition, feel free to post lists in the comment section for help! Thanks as always for checking out the site!



Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





United Kingdom

From what I have seen, a I'm not a tourney player but do play with a lot of them, 6th has a very adaptive meta. Where as 5th settled into its MSU mech, 6th seems to be constantly shifting, this could be because it is still fairly new or just the changes to the editions, stuff like allies means people are constantly coming up with the combinations. In my area when it first came out people went mad for terminators, and anything with a 2+ save, then people began spamming plasma, now no terminators, and as a response to plasma, people began spamming lots of bodies, the people began running template heavy armies etc and this is an ever evolving and shifting meta.

   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

In my area when it first came out people went mad for terminators, and anything with a 2+ save, then people began spamming plasma, now no terminators, and as a response to plasma, people began spamming lots of bodies, the people began running template heavy armies etc and this is an ever evolving and shifting meta.


Hmmm, interesting.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





United Kingdom

 Ratius wrote:
In my area when it first came out people went mad for terminators, and anything with a 2+ save, then people began spamming plasma, now no terminators, and as a response to plasma, people began spamming lots of bodies, the people began running template heavy armies etc and this is an ever evolving and shifting meta.


Hmmm, interesting.


It makes for a very interesting meta, as soon as some finds their list perched on top, every adapts to counter it, and then the adaptation to everyone else starts again, genius rules writing from GW if you ask me. They must be making a fortune off all these tournament players.

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

There are 2 things that has had a big change on the game. Missions and deadlyness:

1. All the missions have secondery objectives. Many of them also use different values on objectives meaning that most armies in order to win needs to be more mobile. In 5th edition a mobile gunline would have a good chance of winning in 2 out of 3 games. In this day and age only 1 in 6 is killpoints and in the rest you need to have some mobile elements. Also nightfighting will probably have some meaning at some point in the game ecuraging you to eather not get alfa striked first turn or having to close to medium range by the end of the game.

2. Tanks have gotten hull points and are much much easier to kill. Transports where the best thing in 5th edition since they only got hit on 6's in CC, they allowed MSU tactics witch was considered quite strong, they had a 4th save after rolling to hit, penetrate and cover save they could just roll imobeliced, stunned or shocked that just did not do anything to them. This has changed. Also cover saves are mutch harder to come by. Not all aria terain is 4+, your own units are not 4+. Most of it is 5+. Feel no pain is also 5+. There is mutch easier to loose special weapons ebacuse of the model rules. Also a complex unit can not stack saves like you could in 5th edition enshuring that just some few selected died. If 3 plasma shots hits the long fangs along with some las guns then those 3 plasma shots will not be asigned to the token wolf guard. Now 2 missile launchers will also die. This makes tabeling a much bigger option in 6th edition then in 5th edition.

There are also numerus other changes but these two are the biggest in my opinion. Flyers being a 3rd, and also these changes will affect your local metagames in interesting ways.

   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

It makes for a very interesting meta, as soon as some finds their list perched on top, every adapts to counter it, and then the adaptation to everyone else starts again, genius rules writing from GW if you ask me.


Tend to agree, a thread inthereof itself - did GW "plan" this with each individual Codex writer, being instructed to write their own "Meta-killer" list and then another being asked to trump it. Or is it more an Emergent property of player/codex/rules interaction?
Fascinating imho.


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





United Kingdom

 Ratius wrote:
It makes for a very interesting meta, as soon as some finds their list perched on top, every adapts to counter it, and then the adaptation to everyone else starts again, genius rules writing from GW if you ask me.


Tend to agree, a thread inthereof itself - did GW "plan" this with each individual Codex writer, being instructed to write their own "Meta-killer" list and then another being asked to trump it. Or is it more an Emergent property of player/codex/rules interaction?
Fascinating imho.



I think you are over estimating the amount games workshop cares about meta, and under estimating how much they care about making stuff they can use the word awesome to describe it with.

   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Ah but therein lies the general consensus EC.

But what if they did write the Codici as I propsed originally?

A Meta writer follows a Meta writer etc to keep pushing the proverbial boat out and keep players building more diverse and hardcore lists?

Hence, as you yourself has seen the Meta shifts continuously and more models/kits are then sold due to players having to continutlalty adapt?

Genius or conspiracy theory?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
 
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