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This is my first real attempt at a Menoth list. Here it is:

pKreoss
Vanquisher
Reckoner

Choir of Menoth (6 man)
Exemplar Bastions (5 man)
Exemplar Errants (6 man) with UA
Exemplar Vengers (3 man)

This fits into his theme list, but I'm okay with breaking out of that if it means a better list. I went for a mix of ranged and melee to capitalize on Kreoss' feat (to shoot stuff behind the line if I need to, or charge in if that's better). I included the Vengers cause I like cavalry and I think they make a good flanking unit. All comments welcome.

A few suggestions.

You have Defenders Ward, and 3 units that want the spell on them.

Drop The Vengers, they are way to weak in a min unit to survive. (If you already own them.. Look into the New IKeross and bump them up to max they can be very nice and fun with him).

Take the Errants to a max Unit, this will play to their Strengths more.

Bastions dont really fit in pkeross so much at this point level.
You should be putting Defenders Ward on Errants, and bastions are a bit slow to get there.

(Bastions are best with a caster that can boost their speed imo) Harbinger is the main one. They are a good unit if you want to take them. They are just a bit slow.

No Vassals ? Vanquisher with no vassel is like Breaking Menoth Rule #2. 2pt solo that doubles the effectivness of the Warjack. (Lets him shoot twice) not to mention Enliven...

If you Trim down the bastions and vengers, add 2x Vassels it would put you at 28/35 pts. Or a min of 1 vassel for 26/35

Suggestions to Add. off the top of my head.
2nd Reckoner
Daughters of the Flame
Nicia
Redeemer
Wracks

It's a bit awkward, but not awful. Knowing what models you have to work with or what your buy-up budget is would help.

I actually dont have any of these models yet so all suggestions are welcome. I'll look into the units recommended.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I actually dont have any of these models yet so all suggestions are welcome. I'll look into the units recommended.

Are you starting a completely new collection for you menoth in that case? I only ask because people typically have at least pKreoss from the stater.

Chongara wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I actually dont have any of these models yet so all suggestions are welcome. I'll look into the units recommended.

Are you starting a completely new collection for you menoth in that case? I only ask because people typically have at least pKreoss from the stater.

I'd be starting from scratch. My first faction was Cygnar so I got their starter box, I have nothing at all for Menoth.

If you dont have any yet that makes it easy.

Pkeross


Exemplar Errants +UA is a very good unit that works with Most Casters well. One of the best in the game.

Choir.. Always take the choir if you have Jacks.

Vassals.. Same as above.. the Utility and benefits they bring is amazing.

Vanquisher is very good against infantry. Expecially shooting twice with a Vassal.

Reckoner is (to me at least) the best 8pt jack in the game. Due to its support buffs available and what it can do.


Those above units is a good basis for most of the Menoth Casters.

 Spyder68 wrote:
If you dont have any yet that makes it easy.

Pkeross


Exemplar Errants +UA is a very good unit that works with Most Casters well. One of the best in the game.

I'll disagree. I think they mostly work best with Defender's Ward casters + Harbinger. They're a bit slow and/or fragile otherwise and just kind of expensive. I'd say TFG probably have the broadest application of the mainline protectorate units. They're super efficient, and are happy to take buffs but don't need them. Errants are a great pick if you know you're starting with pKreoss and moving on to pSeverius or Harbinger. However if someone has their eye on other popular menite casters (Reznik, Kreoss3, eFeora,) they might want to look elsewhere.

I'll agree that the Choir, Reckoner, Vassals & Vanquisher are sort of backbone stuff that any menite really wants to have. Especially the Choir, Vassals & Reckoner. However there is a lot of room for personal taste here.

Errants are a great pick i

A simple Rule i usually go by..

1st: Add Choir
2nd: Add Vassal 1 or 2
3rd: Add Reckoner
4th: Add Exemplar Errants +UA if caster has Defenders Ward
Add TFG+UA if Caster does not have Defenders Ward.
or Add TFG+UA with defenders ward caster if you want a mega Tarpit.

Thanks for all the help so far guys, but what is TFG?

 Spyder68 wrote:
A simple Rule i usually go by..

1st: Add Choir
2nd: Add Vassal 1 or 2
3rd: Add Reckoner
4th: Add Exemplar Errants +UA if caster has Defenders Ward
Add TFG+UA if Caster does not have Defenders Ward.
or Add TFG+UA with defenders ward caster if you want a mega Tarpit.

I tend to think of the TFG UA as strictly optional. Iron Zeal is nice on the approach, but there are really some match ups where it never comes up. Also part of the appeal of TFG is the cheapness of the bodies, and the UA 2 points for basically 1 fighting body.

I think if I had to reccomend a "Babies first protectorate list" it'd look like this:

pKreoss
-Reckoner
-Vanquisher
Minimum Choir of Menoth
Maximum Temple Flameguard
Vassal of Menoth
Vassal of Menoth
Covenant of Menoth

This list would be a solid performer, clocks in at 25pts - which is a decent place to dip your feet in. It's got only faction staples that could be used with any other caster, is gives a really good feel of the factions typical play style and doesn't have any complex or tricky rules to try and wrap your head around.

EDIT:

Thanks for all the help so far guys, but what is TFG?

"Temple FlameGuard" the basic dudes with spears that cost 4/6. You can check the yellow forum rollover text to get info like that.

Their pros:

They've got a threat range of 11" (6" + 3" + Reach) and set defense. This basically means most units either have to charge them, or get charged by them. If you charge them you're hitting against DEF15 a tricky call for even high MAT if they can't boost. If you get charged by them they can pair up for POW12, MAT8 CRAs. This is just baseline and doesn't require any input from casters or other models, despite them working well with such additions.

Contrast the errants who just kind of set at 12/16 without external buffs and have a kind of iffy RAT 6 on their bows when walking, and a maximum 10" aiming threat or 9.5" charging threat. They work great when you can add more on to them, but they're unimpressive for 6/8 at baseline. They also don't really work with the UA, meaning it's a minimum 10pt investment.

Don't get me wrong they're *AWESOME* when used right, I'd just be wary of recommending them as somebody's first unit unless they know they're gonna stick to the casters that can support them. If you're gonna be using vindy, harby or psevvy next go nuts with the errants they'll make enemies cry.


EDIT(Again):

If you really want to use bastions or vengers, you can but they'll be happier with other casters. Keep in mind that they're narrower pieces that won't apply broadly across the faction like the above staples will.

I agree with the above for a good starting spot.


Though i Suggest the UA on TFG, there is a good benfit to it besides 1 fighting body.

Tactics:Menoths Howl. When they hit the unit causes Cont. Fire along with they Cause Terror. Terror is amazing when it comes into play.

Iron Zeal for additonal +4 ARM..
Granted Ranked attacks.

I enjoy the benefits of all the above. Ive had many times my TFG get charged or Engaged to have the opponet fail a terror check.

Okay how about this:

pKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
-Fire of Salvation

2 Vassal Mechaniks
2 Vassals of Menoth
Wracks

Temple Flameguard (10)
Choir of Menoth (4 man)

Vassals and Mechaniks keep the jacks running and shooting, Choir buffs, flameguard rocks out with defender's ward and keeps the vassals, mechaniks, and choir safe from attacks. Is this better? Still needs work maybe?

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Okay how about this:

pKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
-Fire of Salvation

2 Vassal Mechaniks
2 Vassals of Menoth
Wracks

Temple Flameguard (10)
Choir of Menoth (4 man)

Vassals and Mechaniks keep the jacks running and shooting, Choir buffs, flameguard rocks out with defender's ward and keeps the vassals, mechaniks, and choir safe from attacks. Is this better? Still needs work maybe?

This is functional. Though you may find Kreoss is Focus is a bit stretched. You can't use 'Wrack focus for upkeeps or allocation so you've basically got 2 to upkeep and 5 to hand out across 2 beaters - and only if you don't want to cast anything or camp. Coming from cygnar I can see why you'd be OK with running 'Jacks on partial loads but protectorate is so spoiled for focus options I don't see any reason you should have to.

I'd swap out the Mechaniks for a Reclaimer. This keeps your list mostly intact and gives you souls to fuel one of your 'Jacks with. Now Kreoss can happily camp a little, or even cycle buffs while still keeping the 'Jacks humming.

Other option: -Fires of Salavtion, - Mechaniks, +Avatar of Menoth. It makes it own focus, and will kill just about anything even if it comes up short on the roll. It's potential threat is lower thant he FoS and lacks the dispel. It's also kind of big investment to not be able to protect it with the Covenant of Menoth.

At any rate it's a minor quibble, the list as written works fine.

EDIT: Keep in mind. Generally the Convenant of Menoth will do more for keeping your 'jacks alive than mechaniks will. As being immune to knockdown + getting enliven moves means there is almost no way to get your 'jack in a favourable trade. So that's another possible swap if you don't mind remaining a bit strained for focus.


EDIT: (Again)

Heres the rub.

-Hymn of Passage means you can't be targetted by most ranged attacks. Guns are out.
-Enliven means that the next time you get damaged (by a melee attack, as established before guns are out) you get to move with no free strikes out of melee range.
-No Knockdown (covenant) means you they can't stop you from moving by knocking you down. This leaves them with the following options.

Run and surround the 'Jacks, then attack. With the exception of banes, this is usually an overcommitment and unfavourable trade.
Buff up speed, weapon lock you and buy attacks. This isn't sure to get the job done, and usually requires resources that wind up being an unfavourable trade.
Make a charge, cross fingers that they take out your primary weapon system on the first attack (this is silly).

Without the no Knockdown, you pull the enliven trick a couple times and then they just tip your Jacks over smash them while they flail about on their backs like an overturned turtle.

I won't tell you it's the only way to play, lists do fine without the covenant. But it's a staple trick to learn and one that will win you games.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Okay how about this:

pKreoss
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
-Fire of Salvation

2 Vassal Mechaniks
2 Vassals of Menoth
Wracks

Temple Flameguard (10)
Choir of Menoth (4 man)

Vassals and Mechaniks keep the jacks running and shooting, Choir buffs, flameguard rocks out with defender's ward and keeps the vassals, mechaniks, and choir safe from attacks. Is this better? Still needs work maybe?

You don't need 2 mechaniks. I'd like to get the TFG UA in there somehow.


The Fire of Salvation is cool, but a little overpriced IMO. He only gains continuous fire, +1spd, and his imprint over a regular Crusader and I am not convinced its worth the 3 points.

Swap him for a regular Crusader, get the TFG UA, drop one mechanic, and take the Covenant.

That would make the list much better IMO.

 Grey Templar wrote:

You don't need 2 mechaniks. I'd like to get the TFG UA in there somehow.


The Fire of Salvation is cool, but a little overpriced IMO. He only gains continuous fire, +1spd, and his imprint over a regular Crusader and I am not convinced its worth the 3 points.

Swap him for a regular Crusader, get the TFG UA, drop one mechanic, and take the Covenant.

That would make the list much better IMO.

You're way underestimating the Fire.

First off it's got +1 MAT as well, and SPD 5 means you cover 2" more on a run. By your second turn, that's an additional 3" of threat on a charge. If you run twice (which a regular crusader would always have to do) it's a total 5" extra projection. That SPD bump isn't to be underestimated.

Secondly, the Fire *ALSO* has Righteous Vengeance, which is major. It totally changes how your opponent gets to deal with your infantry, particularly those screening him. That free 5" move gives him so much threat projection it may as well read "Grants passage to warrior models within 5" of this one". They've basically got to be hands-off on the dudes around him or risk dealing with a charge/trample that's 5" further up the board than it would be otherwise. He's effectively SPD10 if they kill one of your dudes near him, which means they'll probably go out of their way to avoid killing dudes near him.

and hey it's a free offensive dispel with Kreoss, which is really just a bow on the whole thing. He isn't a must have, but he's a damn fine 'Jack.