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Hello, everyone. I'm fairly new to Warmachine, and have been developing my army. I'm starting to get the hang of things, and have even won a couple of games now; I've been focusing on building up my mildly fluffy army centered around Captain Sloan. But there is one nut I'm having difficulty cracking.

The local metagame is home to several Troll players, as well as a Protectorate player who quite likes Exemplar units--both the Bastions and the Cinerators. These two armies share a trait: They both quite like heavy infantry--big guys on medium bases in heavy armor who are brutal in melee.

How the heck do I handle these guys before they grind my army into dust? Their armor is much too heavy for most anti-infantry weapons to work, though CRAs from Long Gunners may be worthwhile. As medium base models, Hunters crack them nicely, but then that single shot they get isn't hitting a more vital target like enemy 'jacks/beasts, and it's hard to work in enough heavy armor-cracking shots into a list to do anything to two five-man Exemplar squads without seriously screwing something else.

Is there a model type that I'm missing that would be useful? Are CRAs the best way to go? Or am I better off holding them down with tarpit units while my heavy hitters try to walk around their line and target the 'caster/'lock?

In the case of trolls, make sure you kill the support pieces. Without the KSB, Fell Caller, etc they lose some of their potency. I'm not knocking tough and a generally decent armour and all that, but kill the support pieces and you'll do better. We have Defenders and Hunters which are very good at this job, with their very long ranges and high POW.

Which exact units do you tend to run into? Champions with a KSB nearby or something?

Bastions and what not are harder, there is a decent thread on killing them floating around here somewhere...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508035.page#5321890

It goes into some of the options

Deflare wrote:
Hello, everyone. I'm fairly new to Warmachine, and have been developing my army. I'm starting to get the hang of things, and have even won a couple of games now; I've been focusing on building up my mildly fluffy army centered around Captain Sloan. But there is one nut I'm having difficulty cracking.

The local metagame is home to several Troll players, as well as a Protectorate player who quite likes Exemplar units--both the Bastions and the Cinerators. These two armies share a trait: They both quite like heavy infantry--big guys on medium bases in heavy armor who are brutal in melee.

How the heck do I handle these guys before they grind my army into dust? Their armor is much too heavy for most anti-infantry weapons to work, though CRAs from Long Gunners may be worthwhile. As medium base models, Hunters crack them nicely, but then that single shot they get isn't hitting a more vital target like enemy 'jacks/beasts, and it's hard to work in enough heavy armor-cracking shots into a list to do anything to two five-man Exemplar squads without seriously screwing something else.

Is there a model type that I'm missing that would be useful? Are CRAs the best way to go? Or am I better off holding them down with tarpit units while my heavy hitters try to walk around their line and target the 'caster/'lock?

If you are willing to dive into mercs, both forge guard and the pirate boat are very capable of handling multiwound infantry and high arm infantry in general and will outlast such units. In fact, the pirates provide Sloan with a unit with a lot of staying power for attritional purposes.

motyak wrote:In the case of trolls, make sure you kill the support pieces. Without the KSB, Fell Caller, etc they lose some of their potency. I'm not knocking tough and a generally decent armour and all that, but kill the support pieces and you'll do better. We have Defenders and Hunters which are very good at this job, with their very long ranges and high POW.

Which exact units do you tend to run into? Champions with a KSB nearby or something?

Bastions and what not are harder, there is a decent thread on killing them floating around here somewhere...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508035.page#5321890

It goes into some of the options

Thinking about it, the trolls were a bad example in this particular case while I know they can have strong infantry, the main player I've gone up against relies more on his beasts backed up by Janella and the Sons of Bragg. There are just a LOT of the bastards. The Exemplars are more my problem, since I just don't seem to have enough POW 14s to deal with them. Thanks for the link, though.

Panzeh wrote: If you are willing to dive into mercs, both forge guard and the pirate boat are very capable of handling multiwound infantry and high arm infantry in general and will outlast such units. In fact, the pirates provide Sloan with a unit with a lot of staying power for attritional purposes.

Hmm, the Forge Guard are tempting, though possibly a bit slow for what they'd do in my list. My 'pirate boat', I'm guessing that you mean a Sea Dog Crew unit relying on their Ganging Up to crack heavy armor? That seems like it could work, assuming the crew isn't mostly dead by the time they hit the Exemplar line. (Looking at their abilities, am I interpreting correctly that Point Blank means that they can use their gun and hand weapon in the same turn, since they'd just be two melee weapons at that point?)

Deflare wrote:
Hello, everyone. I'm fairly new to Warmachine, and have been developing my army. I'm starting to get the hang of things, and have even won a couple of games now; I've been focusing on building up my mildly fluffy army centered around Captain Sloan. But there is one nut I'm having difficulty cracking.

The local metagame is home to several Troll players, as well as a Protectorate player who quite likes Exemplar units--both the Bastions and the Cinerators. These two armies share a trait: They both quite like heavy infantry--big guys on medium bases in heavy armor who are brutal in melee.

How the heck do I handle these guys before they grind my army into dust? Their armor is much too heavy for most anti-infantry weapons to work, though CRAs from Long Gunners may be worthwhile. As medium base models, Hunters crack them nicely, but then that single shot they get isn't hitting a more vital target like enemy 'jacks/beasts, and it's hard to work in enough heavy armor-cracking shots into a list to do anything to two five-man Exemplar squads without seriously screwing something else.

Is there a model type that I'm missing that would be useful? Are CRAs the best way to go? Or am I better off holding them down with tarpit units while my heavy hitters try to walk around their line and target the 'caster/'lock?

Get Boomhowler & Co. Unit and you will have no problem screening your Jacks and protecting your more squashy Units. Cygnar needs a heavy Infantry unit that has though, and these mercenaries are the best for the Jobb.. hands down.. If you also get the solo from cygnar that makes them Faction models you are golden . And then they can benefit from Sloans feat etc.. you should use them with Gunmages and Black 13... shoot steath etc and can push things back and by you time.. to assassinate enemy caster with sloan.. then Pump in shooting Jacks to fill out the list.. Get Gorman and Eiryss also for the list...

Deflare wrote:

Hmm, the Forge Guard are tempting, though possibly a bit slow for what they'd do in my list. My 'pirate boat', I'm guessing that you mean a Sea Dog Crew unit relying on their Ganging Up to crack heavy armor? That seems like it could work, assuming the crew isn't mostly dead by the time they hit the Exemplar line. (Looking at their abilities, am I interpreting correctly that Point Blank means that they can use their gun and hand weapon in the same turn, since they'd just be two melee weapons at that point?)

The pirate crew's power keys off of several solos, basically, the most important one against heavy infantry being First Mate Hawk who will give them weaponmaster against warrior models. Their survivability comes with Rockbottom's coin for tough, then Killingsworth's 4+ tough ability to make that 4+ tough, and then Grogspar makes them immune to knockdown. However, for the pirate boat to work, you will probably want both the press gangers and sea dog crew. This comes out to about 24 points, but it can basically solve all your melee and survivability problems, providing a powerful attrition group. And, yes, Point blank lets the sea dog crew get two melee attacks. If you're fortunate, press gangers can recover some of your sea dog casualties as well.

I would avoid the Pirates.

It takes to many Solo's/ Points to make it Viable to me.


Go with Boomhowler and Co for 9 pts. you get 10x Medium based models with 4+ Tough.

 Spyder68 wrote:
I would avoid the Pirates.

It takes to many Solo's/ Points to make it Viable to me.


Go with Boomhowler and Co for 9 pts. you get 10x Medium based models with 4+ Tough.

Boomhowler and Co are a hard unit to shift, but in actuality will not be able to kill bastions or bricked up heavy infantry. If you have ways to somehow get heavy infantry off the objective, Boomhowlers are fine in this list, but otherwise you'll need forgeguard or some other heavy hitter. The pirates cost about 24 points or so for the full boat, they'll be your whole front line contingent. I believe a grouping with this melee ability and staying power to be worth the points, especially in a list that can't support melee infantry. Sloan is definitely not the kind of caster who can give you high power infantry the way eStryker can with positive charge.

B14 sounds like an obvious choice. With brutal damage they expect to be hitting for 19 damage, and they get 4 shots. Even combined ranged gunmage attacks could work with their AoE. That's 12 damage per turn that goes trough armor on average, meaning that you expect to clear a 3 man Bastion squad in two turns, and if you are careful with your placement they can't reach you in one. As a bonus, the B15 is versatile enough to be useful even if they dont bring heavy troopers.

That might not be enough for 2 squads though, or if he's running 5s. I think the best way to approach it is something like stormblades. Force them to come to you with the B14, then countercharge. A single stormblade + UA charge should kill a 5 squad Bastion squad. The B14 and the stormblade+UA cost 14 points, still cheaper than the 2 Bastion max squads.

Ofcourse that's theorycrafting, but given that all your units are faster than his, you really should be getting the charge. Cripple one squad with range, charge the other.

I like how the Black 13th are increasing...

But against something like the Bastions, their sanguine bond ability means you aren't actually going to kill a squad in 2 turns if they have any sort of upkeeps (cough Defenders Ward cough), and with a run move they will engage your B13 the turn after you shoot them, and any speed buffs will see them charging you successfully that turn.

Im new to the game so my understanding may be off...but wouldnt 3 focus on a Charger for extra shot & boosts cause some carnage on them? The Chargers gun boosts both hit & damage for a single focus, and it fires twice per action, so if im understanding it all right 3 focus would give it 4 P12 shots, all with boosted hit & damage. ROF is 2, 1 focus for the extra shot, 2 to boost both shots.

I may be all wrong, so please feel free to correct me.

It would give it 2 fully boosted POW 12 shots. Not 4.

 motyak wrote:
It would give it 2 fully boosted POW 12 shots. Not 4.

Ah ok. I thought that ROF 2 meant it fired twice, as in a got to roll 2 "to hit" and 2 "damage" per shooting action. I looked up the rule again, I get it now. What happens when you use a point of focus on a ROF 2 weapon for an extra shot?..it gets a 3rd shot right?

ROF is the MAXIMUM shots it can fire, including the original and the ones you buy.

So for a Charger who has ROF 2 with his gun, he gets one free shot, and you can buy ONE extra shot maximum with a focus. He does not get two free shots. Then you can spend focus to boost damage/RAT. For most guns you can't buy any extra shots, since they are ROF 1.

Every 'jack gun in the game gets only one free shot unless it has a special rule that says otherwise, like the Cyclone's rapid fire rule.

Note that there are some rare circumstances that ignore the ROF restriction, like Kara Sloan's Feat.

And one man, nay, one god, who has ROF infinity. And he's all ours *squee*

How do you handle Cetrati with their 16 Def and 24 Arm

DrDuckman wrote:
ROF is the MAXIMUM shots it can fire, including the original and the ones you buy.

So for a Charger who has ROF 2 with his gun, he gets one free shot, and you can buy ONE extra shot maximum with a focus. He does not get two free shots. Then you can spend focus to boost damage/RAT. For most guns you can't buy any extra shots, since they are ROF 1.

Every 'jack gun in the game gets only one free shot unless it has a special rule that says otherwise, like the Cyclone's rapid fire rule.

Note that there are some rare circumstances that ignore the ROF restriction, like Kara Sloan's Feat.

So the 3 points of focus would get you a second shot and boosts on both shots, got it.

It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

Bastions have fairly low armor, only 16. A POW 12 will do 3 points of damage on an average roll, and 7 boosted. Not enormous, but if you have a lot available (Cyclones and Chargers, for instance) it'll whittle down the unit fairly quickly. Even better if you've got assistance from Siege's feat, which makes those POW 12s do an average of 11 damage unboosted. You'll obviously want more targets in range than just the Bastions, but they're generally slow enough that you'll be able to catch a good portion of the enemy army along with them.

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

Where does it say Explosivo is POW8? Sieges card doesnt list a power for it, as far as I can tell it uses the weapons original POW, but adds magical weapon and a 3 inch AOE. So if I use it on a Defender I get a POW15 3 inch AOE. At least thats the way Im reading it.



I have to say Im somewhat disapointed overall, as it appears that against this unit Im screwed. I dont have anything that puts out enough shots to take out the unit, with weapon master they will walk through anything I put into CC with them, and running out and buying more minis isnt an option right now. This seems to me like a very GW style instant win unit. According to Battle College it can take 35 points of damage before losing its first model. Thats as much damage as heavy warjack, while being able to hit back far more times than a jack. Maybe Im overestimating them but Im going to be seriously pissed off if my army gets completely decimated by a simple infantry unit.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

Bastions have fairly low armor, only 16. A POW 12 will do 3 points of damage on an average roll, and 7 boosted. Not enormous, but if you have a lot available (Cyclones and Chargers, for instance) it'll whittle down the unit fairly quickly. Even better if you've got assistance from Siege's feat, which makes those POW 12s do an average of 11 damage unboosted. You'll obviously want more targets in range than just the Bastions, but they're generally slow enough that you'll be able to catch a good portion of the enemy army along with them.

I assumed Defenders Ward, which makes A Pow 12 go down to 1 point of damage on average, which means you kinda of need to boost for it to be effective. Using his Feat would work, but using his Feat just to clear out some Bastions ?

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

Where does it say Explosivo is POW8? Sieges card doesnt list a power for it, as far as I can tell it uses the weapons original POW, but adds magical weapon and a 3 inch AOE. So if I use it on a Defender I get a POW15 3 inch AOE. At least thats the way Im reading it.

Blast damage is halved, so Defender shooting it, you get a POW15 on the guy you hit directly (assuming you hit directly) then a 15/2 (rounded up) on the guys next to him

Also Explosivo states you can't boost the damage on the blasts, so it really will be completely ignored, Sure you could roll an 11 or 12 for 1 or 2 damage (assuming Defenders Ward)

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


It would seem that my choices have limited ability to deal with infantry, including heavy infantry. Guess Ill use Sieges Explosivo and Ground Pounder AOE attacks. Expolsivo on a Defenders gun should crack some heads, though the AOE is small. Guess Ill find out soon enough, my main opponent has some Bastions hes getting ready to field.

That seems more like a minor annoyance to the Bastions, not something that will clear them out

Pow 12 will only hurt em if you boost, and the Pow 8 Explosivo Blast will be completely ignored

Where does it say Explosivo is POW8? Sieges card doesnt list a power for it, as far as I can tell it uses the weapons original POW, but adds magical weapon and a 3 inch AOE. So if I use it on a Defender I get a POW15 3 inch AOE. At least thats the way Im reading it.

Blast damage is halved, so Defender shooting it, you get a POW15 on the guy you hit directly (assuming you hit directly) then a 15/2 (rounded up) on the guys next to him

Also Explosivo states you can't boost the damage on the blasts, so it really will be completely ignored, Sure you could roll an 11 or 12 for 1 or 2 damage (assuming Defenders Ward)

Ah, I got it.

So it seems my response will depend on his use of them. If he uses them to screen his caster, Ill use Breach when things get close up. If he uses them as a stand alone Ill tar pit them with Sword Knights and a marshalled jack while making a run on his caster. Hopefully those will work well enough until I can get a ATGM unit & UA.

You may want to pick up an Avenger. It has a 4' AoE and everything hit is knocked down. Just boost the "to hit" roll to make sure that the knock down triggers.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You may want to pick up an Avenger. It has a 4' AoE and everything hit is knocked down. Just boost the "to hit" roll to make sure that the knock down triggers.

Not sure if you mean me, OP or both...but in my case Im almost done with my Cygnar buying. Id like a ATGM & UA, but thats probably the last. With those Id have around 90pts worth of Cygnar to choose from. Im keeping up on painting it all quite well too. Once its done Im probably going to do 20-25pts worth of Khador. For the purposes of giving me a bit of variety, and something for the wife to use if/when she wants to play.

By the time I get that all painted up the Relic Knights kickstarter should be about to arrive, and thats got a huge lot of stuff to build and paint. Plus the Dreamforge Crusader thats waiting its turn on the bench...

I think the talk about Seige is the right way to go if you are facing alot of armor like this. His feat turns even POW 10s into killers. Ground pounder can beat up bricked up badguys and pick off support.

Be sure to run him with Reinholdt and the Squire. Then lots of infantry to get lots of attacks that benefit from his feat. I generally like things that shoot as they give you a wider range of attacks and minimise the chance of wasting an attack on feat turn. So gun mages, rangers, Nyss are all good options. B13 is good since they have brutal, the AOE and a toolbox of stuff they can do.

I wouldn't bring much in the jack dept. Defender or Stormwall. Maybe a hunter marshalled to the gun mages for the snipe and crit brutal.

For tactics use the big guns to break apart the shieldwalls. Then the little guns can maximise their damage. Very little will stand up to a defender shot or Seige's rocket launcher on feat turn.

Explosivo is really for the magic attack. The AOE can be nice at times against low armor, but not sure it is realiable enough for heavy infantry even on feat turn. Unless you need magic to hit your target you are better off saving the focus for a ground pounder. Or even just boosting your second shot (from reinholdt)