Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I used pigment powders on the underside and tracks of my Rhino, this was my first time using them. I applied them, sprayed gently with Testor's Dulcote to seal, as it was still wet, I applied more powders then sealed again. Tonight, I took the model to show off to some friends. As they very carefully handled and oogled it, I noticed some pigment powder had come off on the table. A fairly good amount but not enough to tell really where it had come from. I assumed it was from the dozer blade which was heavily weathered with them and may not have been fully sealed. Later, as I returned to my car I saw many distinct rusty track prints on the car seat where it had been sitting. As I rub my finger across the weathered areas, only a bare trace, if that, comes off. The tracks have obviously lost some. I will reapply, do a dusting of Dulcote, then a heavy coat to the underside. I would have figured the original 2-3 coats would have locked them on for the most part, certainly stopped it from losing this much. It definitely isn't caked on or clumped at all just coated with the powders.

Is this normal? Do they over time have to be reapplied? Or is there a trick/step I'm missing? At this rate, I will lose most or all of it, at least on the tracks. The undercarriage and wheels seem to be fine. Other than the slightly moist Dulcote, I didn't use any alcohol or other fixatives to adhere the pigments as I wanted that dusty rusted/oxidized look. I hope I gave enough info and that someone can reassure me that I did everything right and thus I can readjust my expectations of powders, or help me stop this.

Heavy use of powders requires heavy use of sealant.

1. Fixatives of some kind is generally recommended. Use thinner/white spirit/Isoprophyl/etc to fix before sealing,

2. Gloss varnish is generally the preferred sealant followed by a matt varnish to take the gloss finish away (and here Dullcote is fine).

To me it sounds like the Dullcote layers have been a little too gentle. I recommend performing both of the above steps.

I think you're right. I did a dusting of the finish so as not to remove the pigments. Another heavier coat or two will probably help.

Why do you recommend using a gloss then matte, rather than just matte? Is there a particular advantage to the combination? Also, say I use alcohol, then apply my powders. When dry, will it still retain the dusty look? My concern is brushing the pigments across a wet surface and creating clumps like mud rather than a dusting.

A thick coat of powder without some sort of binding agent will come off easily. Try wetting the surface with alcohol before applying the powder; I think that's the heavy corrosion effect you were going for.

That your model was sitting loose on the car seat as opposed to in a case or box of some sort is not a good thing; you'd be surprised how much things slide around while driving. Get a box for it that keeps it held in place, or you'll end up losing more than powder off it.

I wouldnt gloss after or immediately before applying pigment powders. satin coat at most.

Re. varnish.
I generally see matt varnish, Dullcote especially, as more of a finishing touch than as an actual protective varnish. The properties that makes it dull also makes it less hard-wearing.

Re. Powders.
No, use of fixatives will not take the dry dusty look away. It will dry dusty looking.
If you are worried about disturbing the powders then wet a brush with fixative and touch a surface near the powder. This will let the fixative "bleed" into the powder and not disturb it.
Also, weathering (powders or oil) should always be done on top of a varnish.
Here we get a bit more technical as the weathering (of both kinds) behaves differently on gloss varnish as opposed to matt varnish.

I could go into that a bit more, if you like.

Yeah, I should have had it more secure that's for sure. I will next time. I always do when moving my army but didn't think to do so for the individual.

I found right away that a satin or matte base is required to give the pigments enough tooth to stick to. Trying to apply like I wanted to a gloss coat didn't work at all. I'd be hesitant to gloss over pigments, even with a matte after. Not sure what, if any, effect that would have.

Do you think the pigments that are on there will be fine if I put a better coat of finish on it, or should I apply some alcohol and reapply the powders first? The tracks still look worn and have a light surface oxidation, so they'd be fine without another application. I would be worried about ruining the existing layers of finish and powders if I put some form of bonder on there now to reapply powders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like you were replying as I was typing Steelmage99. Feel free to go into as much detail as you're willing to!

I did apply the powders on top of a good layer of Dulcote which had three layers of Future/Klear underneath it. Then a very light coat followed by a slightly heavier coat of Dulcote on top of that. Next time I will certainly use a fixative with the pigments. Do you suggest brushing the pigments before the fixative dries, or after? I've seen techniques in the IA Masterclass books where they just sprinkled, applied fixative, then smudged it after it was dry to create streaks. Which is different than what I'm going for, but clearly you get what I mean.

I wouldn't bother with gloss before matte when varnishing. For our purposes, at least, the protection offered is equivalent (I'd argue that using a lacquer like Dullcote trumps acrylic, anyway, regardless of luster). I still do it, actually, but merely as a cost-cutting measure - I insist on the finish that Dullcote gives, but it's comparatively pricey, so I do layers of cheaper gloss first to cut down on volume used while getting the protection and look I want at a lower cost.

As for you other questions: I'd leave the existing powder on the upper tracks and/or running gears alone, as the applications sounds pretty light and will be further strengthened by the next layer of varnish. The best method of application (both of powder and fixative) is a tougher question, as there are any number of combinations that can work.

Personally, I use rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl) to fix pigment and have found that to be sufficient, at least once varnished over - granted, I'm also relatively gentle with my models. I tend to apply pigment dry, then use the "spot gently with wet brush" method, allowing capillary action to distribute the alcohol. If you don't completely flood the area and cause runs, it does very little in the way of disturbing the pigment placement. It does, however, soak through the pigment layer completely and visibly (you'll see the dust darken), which makes ensuring a decent hold pretty simple. For heavier, pitted rust, I tend to stipple on a paste mixed from pigment and alcohol, instead of sprinkling over a layer of wet fixative, although the latter method should also work just fine if you check to ensure that the pigment has absorbed enough fixative to stay put.

Whichever method you use, only brush the pigment when dry if you want to get soft, feathered effects. If you manipulate it when wet, you might as well be applying a wash - there are cases when this might be desirable, but if I read your intended task right, it's not what you're looking for. Fixative application can always be repeated, too, so you could easily combine methods, e.g. apply a pigment wash, feather the edges when dry, then dot again with fixative for added security before varnishing.

If I apply the fixative, then pigment and wait for it to dry to get the softer dusty effect, won't brushing it at that point negate the fixative's hold?

Some amount of rubbing off is inevitable. You can fix it in place so it won't fall off by itself, but it's impossible to completely protect it against rough handling. This is especially true with things like tracks, where you can have clumps of powder stuck in the cracks and just waiting to fall out. There are two things you can do to minimize the problem:

1) Use extra powder on the assumption that sealing will dull the effect a bit, and then you'll lose some more from handling. I've found that my tanks tend to lose a lot soon after they're finished, but it seems to reach a final state where everything that is going to come off easily is already gone.

2) Be very careful how you handle them. For example, don't pick them up by the tracks, find a clean spot on the hull you can grab and always pick it up using that spot. And of course don't let random people touch your models, as they probably won't be aware of this.

I've been pretty easy with them, and my buddies were almost ridiculously delicate. I think it may be like you say, there was just some that was coming out of the recesses in the track, and also maybe that combined with a less than adequate sealant. I'm purchasing a Predator, so I'll be able to take this advice, for which I'm thankful, and apply it. Hopefully it'll work.

Static display models get away with less protection because they are 'display' models and not game pieces meant to be played with.

You will need to seriously overdo the protection to keep weathering powders onto a gaming model - compared to a display piece that is rarely handled.