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hey,
I´ve bought the 2 player starter box and share it with a buddy of mine, so I know pretty much nothing about the game except of a quick browse through the rulebook and some glances at the Khador "codex".
Are the tier-lists usually viable recommendations and a good guidline on how to build an army or is this just a fluffy example on how to write a list?
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?
Do i have to take units or can i have a strong force with a backbone made of solos?
Would Sorscha be a popular caster too if she would no be included into the starters?

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are the tier-lists usually viable recommendations and a good guidline on how to build an army or is this just a fluffy example on how to write a list?

I would not advise tier lists for new players. They are limited and often require full field allowance of some units, if not higher. Wait for theme forces until you have a better grasp of the game and have a collection that can get you most of the way there.

Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?

I'm afraid i have no frame of reference here but even the bad things have their cornercase uses. It may be worth noting that spam is generally much worse than it is in 40k.

Do i have to take units or can i have a strong force with a backbone made of solos?

Nothing is forcing you to take units and I'm sure there area couple of viable solomachine khador forces but one of the faction's strengths is it's infantry. You will have jacks and solos working with those units though so it is not a full infantry skew.

Would Sorscha be a popular caster too if she would no be included into the starters?

She would not be as popular but she is not hated by any means. She is no ace but she isn't so bad she would never see table time either. That would be Zerkova.

tommse wrote:
hey,
I´ve bought the 2 player starter box and share it with a buddy of mine, so I know pretty much nothing about the game except of a quick browse through the rulebook and some glances at the Khador "codex".
Are the tier-lists usually viable recommendations and a good guidline on how to build an army or is this just a fluffy example on how to write a list?
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?
Do i have to take units or can i have a strong force with a backbone made of solos?
Would Sorscha be a popular caster too if she would no be included into the starters?

Tier lists are a bad idea, simply because you need to buy a lot of odd stuff you normally wont use (usually) and the bonuses are usually advance deploy and such, which don't effect much until you start playing scenario's (which you should)

bad models; I've never seen a list with the commando's, they seem a little overcosted

Khador has some pretty nasty solo's, great bears hurt quite a lot, eliminators can be hard to kill, ect. solo's generally hit harder than regular infantry and are harder to kill, a units survivability comes from having lots of dudes, in warmachine you rarely get more than 1-2 attacks (from an infantry) and jacks get a few, hard attacks that will splatter anything smaller than another jack, but again, only a few swings unless you invest a ton of focus. In addition a lot of spells and abilities effect the model/unit, which would be 1 guy if you put them on a solo, or 10-15 guys if on a squad, I dont have to explain which is better. Menoth can run a ton of good solo's, but its a skew list

sorscha is a decent caster, (remember there's epic sorscha too) zerkova is "bad" but really not /that/ bad, what I always suggest to players that just start if you buy your card tech, this is an investment of about 15 bucks that you dont really need, but it gives you the ability to stand-in everything in your main book, and sometimes some mercenaries and stuff too. Since casters dramatically change how each army plays I suggest checking them all out once you go up to about 25 points (battlebox games are quick and fun but dont really show you the depth of the game) Since you have the book you can always play 40k style with the book marked and a forwardkommander list printed out for the boxes instead of getting the deck.

You're coming at this from a 40k perspective, like most of us did. The games are completely different but in a good way.

When looking at putting together a list you have to think about synergies between casters and unit, casters and jacks. Solo's and units, Solo's and casters. Its a very simple game to learn, but has a huge learning curve to really get good at. Just changing out a solo in an army can change the way it plays, Changing casters is like a whole new faction (looking at it through the 40k lens).

The best advice I can give you is to play the battle box game a bunch and get a feel for how it plays. Learn how to use pSorscha and how what she does affects the jacks and the opponents models.

Are there "better" casters in Khador? Its all opinion and based on play styles. She is a top tier caster. but she might not fit your play style. Heck she doesn't really fit mine.

Personally my favorites in Khador are pButcher, eVlad, and pIrusk.

Good luck, I hope you come to love the game.

edited for spelling

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are the tier-lists usually viable recommendations and a good guidline on how to build an army or is this just a fluffy example on how to write a list?

Neither, really. Tier lists are less "the fluff", and more "this is a famous formation the caster was involved in once upon a time".

You need to distance yourself from a preconceived notion of whats "fluffy" and whats "not fluffy", as you tend to see in the other game. THe Butcher is as likely to turn up and demand the services of a bunch of steelhead mercenaries as he is men o war, iron fangs or winter guard, should the situation arrise.

Tier lists are themed armies. Nothing more nothing less. THey dont have a greater or lesser grasp on the lore as any other list you might make up. What they do offer, some of the times though, is fun, and unique builds unplayable elsewhere. its like the old farsight rules for tau, escept you get actual bonuses as well as restrictions. my favourite list is an eButcher mad dogs of war tier list (its just spammed doom reavers - my favourite unit). Its certainly thematic, and loads of fun. Other theme lists - i can take them or leave them.

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?

No. everything can be built into viable, game winning strategy. everything has a role to play. Not everything is useable against everything else, all the time, with no drawbacks, however.

tommse wrote:

Do i have to take units or can i have a strong force with a backbone made of solos?

you dont need units. theyre nice to have, but especially in small games, you can get away with jacks and solos. eVlad loves his Solomachine. especially the drakhun

tommse wrote:

Would Sorscha be a popular caster too if she would no be included into the starters?

back in mark1, sorscha was the most broken caster in the game. 2 nerfs later, and she's still really good. Currently, shes undergoing a bit of a resurgance on popularity with Khador players. shes got her uses - brutal feat, great threat range, but she has her limitations too. Like everything in warmachine, there are certain builds that favour her, and others that dont.

Deadnight wrote:

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?

No. everything can be built into viable, game winning strategy. everything has a role to play. Not everything is useable against everything else, all the time, with no drawbacks, however.

Kossite woodsmen are pretty damn awful.

 BoardroomHero wrote:

Kossite woodsmen are pretty damn awful.

for 4pts though, you're getting what you pay for. a nice little distraction unit. they come on the side of the board (and the fact that they can do this is going to pressure your opponents movement, and deployment options) and then take out a pesky solo, or charge/run into the way and bog things down for the other guy.

Would i make a list out of them exclusively?
No.

Would i dismiss them?
No. they have their uses.

I don't know Khador that well but I will share what I know.

Outside of a few exceptions, Tier lists are rarely worth going for. This is generally because the bonuses you get from them are rarely outweighed by the cost, both in terms of money and in-game performance, gained from running a wide range of units. For example, Kreoss2's (a Protectorate warcaster) theme list has fairly strong bonuses, but is generally poorly regarded since it prevents you from bringing the Choir of Menoth, which is one of the crucial pieces of jack-support in a Protectorate army. As a general rule, avoid theme lists until you have a ton of experience with the game and know when they are worth the cost of taking them.

While it is true that some units are 'better' than others, in Warmachine player skill and inter-unit synergy is generally more important than just shoving power models in your list. Basically, anything CAN be good if you build around it, but some units fit into more lists than others do. If you want to make a unit work it can work, but when you are starting out it is suggested that you look at taking units that will fit into a wide range of lists (such as Winter Guard Infantry for Khador, or Bane Thralls for Cryx).

It depends on the list, the solos, and the faction. Some factions, such as Cygnar and Protectorate, have access to a large number of powerful solos which can define lists. However, one of Khador's strong points is its infantry, such as Winter Guard and Iron Fangs. Once again, you can make a solo-heavy list work, but it might not be the easiest thing to do in comparison to bringing a balanced list.

I don't have much experience with Khador outside of reading battle reports, but Sorscha1 seems like a fine warcaster, and there is nothing in her statsline which sets off any red flags in my mind.

 BoardroomHero wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?

No. everything can be built into viable, game winning strategy. everything has a role to play. Not everything is useable against everything else, all the time, with no drawbacks, however.

Kossite woodsmen are pretty damn awful.

What? No way
Dirt cheap unit with Ambush Camo and Pathfinder, making them a massive thorn on the enemies side that is annoying to get rid of

As a proud member of the "I won with Zerkova" club" I am obligated to say that Lady Z does not suck, not at all. She just haves a very different play style than the other Khadoran casters.

I'd recommend picking up one of these groups next.
Winter Guard Infantry, Winter Guard Officer and Standard and Kovnik Joe.

Iron Fang Pikemen, Officer and Standard, Iron Fang Kovnik, and then the Black Dragon UA is optional

Kayazy Assassins, Under boss Attachment, and Kayazy Eliminators.

I'd also get some widowmakers and the war dog. I'd also look at getting another caster, pButcher, pIrusk, or eSorscha.

The Spriggan is also a good model to pick up.

The mercs you should look at picking up is Sylys Wishylynr the Seeker, eEyriss, Gorman di Wulfe, and Lady Aryanna and Holt.

I had success with this list:

Forward Kommander Sorscha (*6pts)
* Juggernaut (7pts)
* Spriggan (10pts)
* Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker (2pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
* 1 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeer (1pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)

Unfortunately I just realized that the 2 player box kind of sucks, and I really have only used the Juggernaut that came with it. I like the Shocktroopers but haven't used then since I got my Iron Fang Pikemen.

Sorscha doesn't really need two jacks. You'd be better off getting another unit of infantry for the cost of that jack. I'd recommend taking out the juggernaut and seeing what you can put in for 7 points.

Sining wrote:
Sorscha doesn't really need two jacks. You'd be better off getting another unit of infantry for the cost of that jack. I'd recommend taking out the juggernaut and seeing what you can put in for 7 points.

5pts for Great Bears that can wreck just about any heavy in the game and 2pts for a Manhunter spring to mind.

Sining wrote:
Sorscha doesn't really need two jacks. You'd be better off getting another unit of infantry for the cost of that jack. I'd recommend taking out the juggernaut and seeing what you can put in for 7 points.

I was trying to go with what he has in the starter box, otherwise I would have said the Great Bears and 2 more rocketeers to get the full death star. Plus I'm a fan of the Juggy. I ran that exact list before I bought the Bears, and won games with it. The only thing that gave me a lot trouble was pHaley with a Stormwall mainly because I couldn't charge.

pHaley and Stormwall give just about everything fits.

Unless your running 3Vlad's Charge of the Horse Lords.

I have been rocking the khador train since late MK1, came from 40k and fantasy (necros and lizards). In my experience, almost everything can be useful, especially in khador. Some units are more universally useful (Iron fangs, great bears, manhunters, wintergaurds). Basically, if you are scratching your head about what to put in your list, those units will fit into almost any of them simply because they are self sufficient and do not really need support. In response to the AKs - try a pButcher+a full unit of AKs with their flamethrowers attached - fully buffed on butcher's feat turn will have them dishing out 11 damage on a jugg with avg rolls EACH being immune to fire, corrosion, gas, clouds and having a debuff and high ARM makes them fairly effective against alot of menoth and cryx lists. That being said, thats the only time I have used em.

I would recommend picking up pButcher and pIrusk. They are (in my opinion) the definition of khador's most common strategy. They offer good support for our extremely capable infantry that will turn them into killing machines. Irusk offers one of the best warjack support spells in the game which solves all of our jacks shortfalls and pButcher...well he butchers stuff, he is arguably the most dangerous melee thing in the game, excluding maybe colossals? Manhunters are extremely lethal melee solo assassins that can put down warcasters and light jacks with a little help (pIrusk's battle lust + charge anyone?) I have taken one of them every chance I get after a pair of them massacred a carnivean.

You can really go in any direction with pIrusk and pButcher, pretty much any of our infantry units will work well with their support.

Wow your help was very comprehensive! Now i can´t wait to get some games in and see how (and if) i expand my army

What do you guys think about this 25p list? It would be a cheap add-on to my existing stuff and would have some cool looking units in it too. And how do you use Shocktroopers properly? Do you want to use their ranged weapon or is it more like a potshot you take when you can´t do something else?
And where can I find stats for units which are not included in the "codex"? The horse-riding vlad looks epic but how are you supposed to know if his crunch matches the look?

Sorscha
War dog

Destroyer
Juggernaut

Manowar Shocktroopers (5 guys)
Widowmakers

tommse wrote:

What do you guys think about this 25p list? It would be a cheap add-on to my existing stuff and would have some cool looking units in it too. And how do you use Shocktroopers properly? Do you want to use their ranged weapon or is it more like a potshot you take when you can´t do something else?

You are allowed to Walk, Shield Wall and Shoot the Cannon

Giving you an ARM 21 Gun Wall of DOOM

Manowar Shocktroopers are meat shields on their own, they are to slow to ever get in combat and take advantage of shieldwall, if your useing their gun it means you can't get a charge off. If you want a Manowar unit for melee attack go demolition corp, running is no skin off their back and have more flexibility in melee. On the other hand if you want a Manowar unit that shoots go bombardiers.

their are two game wide expansion books with something for everybody called Wrath and Colossals. They each introduce a new type of unit and have several new models for each faction.

Vlad3 (horse riding) is probably a great caster if you can wrap your head around his play style. You can substitute any warcaster in the previous statement and it will hold true. The question you should ask is how do you use Vlad3? Personally, no idea.

 ChaoticMind wrote:
Vlad3 (horse riding) is probably a great caster if you can wrap your head around his play style. You can substitute any warcaster in the previous statement and it will hold true. The question you should ask is how do you use Vlad3? Personally, no idea.

You gotta be careful, while you're wrapping your head around his playstyle
his shoulderpads will be wrapping around your head!

tommse wrote:

And where can I find stats for units which are not included in the "codex"? The horse-riding vlad looks epic but how are you supposed to know if his crunch matches the look?

Vlad3 is in the Colossals book (if I'm not mistaken) so you could pick it up and check out his stats, as well as the stats for a handful of other snazzy new Khadoran pig-dog scum (Cygnar FTW!). If you see a model that you think is neat but it's not in the Forces book for your faction, then you'll find it in one of the expansion/update books (Domination, Colossals, etc.).

I have always found Shocktroopers to be sort of meh. I prefer IFPs and I think many will agree on that point. IFPs are faster and just as lethal in melee. They are not nearly as tough as shocktroopers but you get twice as many in a unit. In addition to that, they have a unit attachment that gives them fantastic abilities.

RegalPhantom wrote:

Outside of a few exceptions, Tier lists are rarely worth going for. This is generally because the bonuses you get from them are rarely outweighed by the cost, both in terms of money and in-game performance, gained from running a wide range of units.

I agree with this statement

RegalPhantom wrote:

For example, Kreoss2's (a Protectorate warcaster) theme list has fairly strong bonuses, but is generally poorly regarded since it prevents you from bringing the Choir of Menoth, which is one of the crucial pieces of jack-support in a Protectorate army.

Going to have to disagree massively here. (I know op is asking about khador, but I want to illustrate what can 'make' a good tier, and Kreoss2's tier is one of the best examples in the game IMO)

To the OP, Kreoss2 is a caster that loves him some weaponmaster infantry, and usually only 1 jack. His theme force doesn't allow choir, true, but here's what you get for running all up to tier 4. FA:U on a unit (not that great of a benefit for this unit), one unit type gets advance move (hell yes, in an army that is mostly speed 5 without much pathfinder or reach), a free solo, and +2'' of deployment zone (again, hell yes).

This is a theme force that rewards you for taking things that work well with the warcaster, and gives you benefits that help with one of the army's weaknesses (slow), in return for the trade-off of not being able to take the piper (gives pathfinder to a unit), and no choir (would take it if I could, even with one jack, but the benefits are too great IMO).

That said, I wouldn't recommend theme forces to new players because they usually require more of a unit than you would normally want (spam not as important as in 40k, and usually hurts you for doing so instead of diversifying), and can be more expensive. For example, my kreoss2 list has about $70 worth of models that only show in his tier).

On to your 25 point list. First off, not a fan of shockies. They want to shield wall, but they're also speed 4. That said, I know that you're building on what you have. If you really want to play shockies, I would grab the Iron Fang Kovnik (he has an ability that gives a unit +2'' of movement if they receive the shield wall order). He's two points, so you'd probably have to drop the widowmakers (love them, but you have to decide if you want the IFK or not). If you decide to throw in the IFK, not sure what I'd put in for two points TBH. When you're running shockies, if you are able to, I would almost always run them the first turn (or as many turns as possibly before they are in danger). All that said, for a second list, I would recommend pButcher, pIrusk, or eSorscha (probably would go with pButcher or pIrusk first personally).

IMPORTANT: I just want you to be aware that you are not required to have the "codex." The stat cards for models come in the packaging with the model. What the army book provides is tier lists (not ones that have been released in no quarter though), and fluff.

If you're just looking for the best way to proxy new releases/find out what they do, if you have an android or iphone/ipad(possibly iTouch, no idea though), there is an app called war room. The app itself is free, and the Khador faction deck is around 7 dollars I think. I would never use it instead of cards during a game, and as a list builder it's mediocre (they're still working out the bugs), but if you want to find out what stuff does, it's a pretty good way to.

BTNeophyte wrote:

Snip

The Kreoss2 theme list generates a lot of discussion, at least among the players I know. One of the guys who got me into Warmahordes and played a lot more than me was talking about it the last time we hung out and the game came up. The debate basically came down to whether the benefits (free FA ignoring Senschenal, AD, and a better deployment zone) were worth going down to one jack and having to take two units of Knights Exemplar (even with them getting AD), with the consensus boiling down to players really wanting a second jack, which in turn made the choir much more valuable. My point was that even the good theme lists aren't necessarily (although they can be), and this debate was still in the back in the mind so its what I put forward as an example. That being said, poorly regarded was a poor choice of words on my part.

KingKodo wrote:
I have always found Shocktroopers to be sort of meh. I prefer IFPs and I think many will agree on that point. IFPs are faster and just as lethal in melee. They are not nearly as tough as shocktroopers but you get twice as many in a unit. In addition to that, they have a unit attachment that gives them fantastic abilities.

This is true but its like $90 for the base unit and another $20 for the UA, not really the kind of thing you'll be looking at as a beginner.

They can be had for about half that. Not sure where you got those prices from but you should probably never buy anything from there ever again. I purchased mind used for 35$ with the UA.

 Talamare wrote:

 BoardroomHero wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

tommse wrote:
hey,
Are there units in the codex you would absolutely? Like IG-armed-only-with-GL-bad?

No. everything can be built into viable, game winning strategy. everything has a role to play. Not everything is useable against everything else, all the time, with no drawbacks, however.

Kossite woodsmen are pretty damn awful.

What? No way
Dirt cheap unit with Ambush Camo and Pathfinder, making them a massive thorn on the enemies side that is annoying to get rid of

That they very conditionally have decent DEF might be relevant if they were capable of doing so much as knocking over a furby. As it is something that can't even manage a 50/50 shot at killing a choir boy without getting the charge can hardly be considered "Massive Thorn" in anything. They're a serious contender for worst unit in the game.

It's even worse in context. Khador has awesome infantry choices, and even if they were upgraded to passable stats the range of casters that would support a unit like the woodsman is rather short.

You have to keep in mind what you ARE NOT picking if you take the woodsmen. Winterguards, manhunters, greatbears, yuri, widowmakers. I have a feeling a squad of widowmakers and the marksmen (a 6 point investment) will cause more damage and make their points back much faster/easier than the woodsmen. If they had slightly better stats and maybe a bonus to back strikes then maybe they would be worth it. I think they are designed assuming you will always ambush into your opponent's back arc and then stand and shoot. They actually have a good chance to hit in that situation, its just that they do nothing but get in the way on the following turn...and they dont hit hard...and there is next to no way to buff them...

RegalPhantom wrote:

BTNeophyte wrote:

Snip

The Kreoss2 theme list generates a lot of discussion, at least among the players I know. One of the guys who got me into Warmahordes and played a lot more than me was talking about it the last time we hung out and the game came up. The debate basically came down to whether the benefits (free FA ignoring Senschenal, AD, and a better deployment zone) were worth going down to one jack and having to take two units of Knights Exemplar (even with them getting AD), with the consensus boiling down to players really wanting a second jack, which in turn made the choir much more valuable. My point was that even the good theme lists aren't necessarily (although they can be), and this debate was still in the back in the mind so its what I put forward as an example. That being said, poorly regarded was a poor choice of words on my part.

Kreoss2 really wants to camp all his Focus and not hand it out to warjacks. Only 1 fits his style perfectly.

Its all about that feat turn and all those autohitting weapon master attacks.


A very corner case list and a good one, but definitely not for a newbie. You'd have too many units that would never see playtime except in his theme list. That applies to most theme lists actually, his is just an extreme example.

 Grey Templar wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:

Snip

A very corner case list and a good one, but definitely not for a newbie. You'd have too many units that would never see playtime except in his theme list. That applies to most theme lists actually, his is just an extreme example.

are you saying that whenever a newbie is starting warmachine that isn't the thread to start a BS argument over semantics in? Are you sure?

Big important thing to remember as a new player is that you only have a set number of focus so the infantry and solos that you use to support is very important and really limits the number of jacks you should take. Where in Hordes as the fury system, makes warbeasts the most important part of the game.

Widowmakers and the Widowmaker Marksman are a must because if they hit a jack or warbeast they will always damage them.

Winterguard Death Star is deadly.

Good luck.