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For quite some time I've seen some potential in the LATD army list. I have a a very interesting modelling project I'd like to embark on, but this time I don't want to handicap myself, as I did with Daemon Hunters a couple of years ago (though I did get Best Painted of Scandinavian GT with them)
I want to have a list able to go all the way AND tons of cool modelling opportunities. While I'm enjoying my marines and dropping is a new fresh bit of fun - marines are just tooo popular.

My LATD list has 14! Scoring units, 80 models, dakka and hakka, infiltarting elements, deep strikeer/daemons, indirect fire etc. at 1500pts. But is it resilient, powerfull, sneaky enough? Please, help me fine tune it for the toughest competition, or let me know if LATD just doesn't cut it.




Unnamed1500 Pts  -   CSM: The Lost and the Damned Army

1 Chaos Lord (HQ) (cs) @ 136 Pts
     #Daemonic Resilience; Mark of Nurgle; Bolt Pistol (x1)
     #Infiltrate 15
     Daemonic Strength 10
     Daemonic Speed 15
     Manreaper 25

2 CSM Aspiring Champion (HQ) @ 124 Pts
     Mark of Chaos Undivided; Power Fist (x2); Bolt Pistol (x2)
(These join the mutants to make them very killy in cc together with the mutant bosses)


1 Obliterator @ 70 Pts


6 Daemonette (Elites) @ 90 Pts
    

15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
     Icon, CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ 31]Pts
          CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades

15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
     Icon, CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ 31 Pts
          CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Icon, Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Icon, Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Icon, Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Icon, Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades


5 Chaos Hounds (Fast Attack) @ 50 Pts

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 45 Pts
     Multi-Laser

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 45 Pts
     Multi-Laser


5 Chaos Spawn (Heavy Support) @ 100 Pts

1 Chaos Defiler (Heavy Support) @ 150 Pts
     Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Battle Cannon; Reaper
     Autocannon; Heavy Flamer
     #Daemonic Possession

1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
     Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Models in Army: 80


Total Army Cost: 1499

A Migsula LatD army? I can't wait to see this!
Some thoughts on the list:
1) Though your list doesn't indicate it, I assume the basilisk has indirect fire (given the points total). If not, it's essential.
2) why flamers in the las-cannon units? Perhaps because they'll be infiltrating close to the enemy? If so, are las-cannons the best weapons? If, on the other hand, you plan to be infiltrating these units for line of sight on big targets (tanks, monstrous creatures, etc.), you should still be able to set up fire positions well back from enemy lines, most of the time, making the flamers less useful.
3) you might not have the points, but if you could find them, equipping the defiler with a dirge caster could shore up leadership nicely (depending on where the defiler deploys, of course).
4) where are your icons?

Man, I hope you go forward with this project. I'd love to see what Mad Scientist Migs cooks up for mutants!

1) yup, it has indirect

2) Flamer is only 3 pts!
I see the units targeting enemy heavy hitters with the LC and then have the ability to switch to walk+rapid fire and flame when hordes get close. Alternatively against some enemies the Lascannons may be of little use, and then a couple of flamers will be handy.

3) I like that idea!...also from the modelling perspective

4)Each troop choise has one! I dont understand why AB doesn't show them. I'll edit it.

I have a "few" ideas in store ... thing is, I see the project taking atleast a full year to finish, so I want it to be worth the hassle on gaming side too. I have the models to play test this though.

I'm not sure that you have the proper balance of shooty and choppy here; it seems a little too even.  Me personally, I'd focus on one or the other, especially since all your hand to hand is on foot.

If you are going shooty, I'd use the traitor squads to max out on Imperial vehicles.  They have a LD6 and disappear in a strong breeze, and often have to shoot the closest target.  Paying extra for the agitator is usually too much for what you get out of him.

I ran up a list similar to this, and ended up with a cheap Arch-heretic, the mutant squads like you have them, four traitor squads (6 man with lascannon or autocannon), two hellhounds, two russes, and a defiler.  Lots of shooty, decent countercharge, and a few points to play with (my list was 1850, and I had some Chosen with heavy weapons as well).

I could be completely off on this, though.

I'm a little worried about this too. Thing is, I can never really out shoot shooty armies here, so I either need something sneaky or choppy to level the playing field somewhat. I'm too slow to my liking, but the speed+infil boss helps...maybe Furies could be a good fit to this army?

When infiltrate is in use, I get to deploy the traitors when I know most of enemy deployment and to better positions, so that helps to make them more effective. They are also relatively cheap.

The spawn for their stats at 20pts a pop are such a steal (and a great modeling opportunity). The only big downside is losing a HS slot.

If you're looking for more fast stuff, consider the following:

Mutants with leaping.  They're pricey, but they tend to get there.  The down side is that once you're in close combat, each mutant is pretty much a 12-point wound for the Mutant Boss and Aspiring Champion (both with p-fists).

Rough Riders.  Obvious benefits (I'd use them in my army, but it doesn't fit the theme).

Daemonettes on Steeds.  Pricey but quick.

Chaos Hounds: Not a bad buy for 10 points, but the Rough Riders are better.

There's also a Demon Prince with Demonic Flight or Speed if you want to get something a little nastier into the enemy lines.  It's a hell of a countercharge unit too (if a bit pricey).

Hope this helps!

-i've never actually even thought about taking anything for HQ's other than a greater demon or asp champs.

-i would rather have more mutants than leaping mutants, even if they are a distraction they are going to buy time for your faster stuff or vice versa.

-furies never let me down... except looks wise the stock models which are horrible.

-chaos hounds are great but i think you need more than 5 to accomplish anything though.

-not sure why a defiler when you can take 2 bassies. i can understand purely modeling wise but not sure game wise 25 pts seems useful.

-why not lascannons on sents? i would drop a squad just to give them both lascannons and shift around some pts.

-daemonic mutation (at the very least spiky bits) and visage for champs?

Good suggestions. I'll do some adjusting and post another list later today.

Revised list. One less scoring unit, but more punch in the dogs, lascannons for the sentinels, scarier Champs and Dirge Caster to keep the peeps in control. 8 pts to play with. Maybe daemonic visage for the lord aswell?

Unnamed1500 Pts  -   CSM: The Lost and the Damned Army

1 Chaos Lord (HQ) (cs) @ 136 Pts
     #Daemonic Resilience; Mark of Nurgle; Bolt Pistol (x1)
     #Infiltrate 15
     Daemonic Strength 10
     Daemonic Speed 15
     Manreaper 25

2 CSM Aspiring Champion (HQ) @ 128 Pts
     Mark of Chaos Undivided; Power Fist (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
     Daemonic Visage 2


1 Obliterator  @ 70 Pts
 
6 Daemonette (Elites) @ 90 Pts
 

15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
     CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ [31] Pts
          CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades

15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
     CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ [31] Pts
          CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
     Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades


8 Chaos Hounds (Fast Attack) @ 80 Pts

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 55 Pts
     Lascannon

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 55 Pts
     Lascannon


5 Chaos Spawn (Heavy Support) @ 100 Pts

1 Chaos Defiler (Heavy Support) @ 165 Pts
     Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Battle Cannon; Reaper
     Autocannon; Heavy Flamer
     #Daemonic Possession [0]
     Dirge Caster [15]

1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
     Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Models in Army: 77


Total Army Cost: 1492

i like it, any reason why only the lord has mark of nurgle? or just to pump out attacks w/ manreaper?

Rather a nice list. I'm a little worried about how you'll be taking down landspeeders and other light skimmers now that you've removed your sentinel multilasers... Heck, I wouldn't have put lascannons on them. *shrugs*

Only having 1 dirge caster is risky - I assume your aspiring champions will be joining your mutants, for hidden-fist potential, and that leaves you with 3 units that have LD:6 sitting still with lascannons! If your defiler goes down, these squads will too, losing you a significant portion of your firebase. On that note, I'd think about deploying your sentinels near the defiler, and using their scout moves to walk into a 'blocking' position from the enemy heavy weapons. Blocking LOS will shield your caster for a few turns, making your lascannon traitors more reliable, and thus reducing the need for lascannons on sentinels...

Then you can change back to multilasers on those sents, and use the points saved to give the aspiring champions spikey bits, marks of khorne, or demonic mutations to really rack up the attacks..

The Manreaper selection is a modeling issue, but also great for going after enemy squads. Mark of Nurgle (+1T) will rep extensive reconstructive surgery and bionics.

I can see the traitors sometimes failing to perform, but there's seriously not much points tied in them.

Autoglancing lascannon is not that much of a worse choise against AV10 skimmers, but needed for the occasional Monoliths, extended TMCs etc.

I can see the traitors sometimes failing to perform, but there's seriously not much points tied in them.

Autoglancing lascannon is not that much of a worse choise against AV10 skimmers, but needed for the occasional Monoliths, extended TMCs etc.

I can see what your thinking - that the lascannons in the traitor squads will inevitably be lost, and you could do with something good against the big tanks.
The reason I gave my suggestion of sacrificial LOS-blocking sentinels to protect the dirge defiler is because it allows you not only more reliable lascannons and anti-skimmer from the sentinels, but also, and here's the real cusp of the issue I perhaps should have lent more weight to above - *extra attacks on the ACs*.
On that note - is there a reason you haven't taken demonic mutation/mark of khorne/spiky bits on the champions?

Mainly points. With the mutant boss and champ the unit has 9 PF attacks on the charge. I do understand the logic and value of those attack though, so I'll have to see if I can find the points for spikes/mutation. Khorne is a no go, because I want that reroll for morale that the MoCU brings.

MOCU is the only mark worth it for asp champs, being able to re-roll leadership 10 means that your mutants will stay in line long after most of them are dead. Mutation/spiky bits are essential for champs because though combined the champ and boss have lots of attacks if in combat w/ a higher toughness creature or dread i rather have more str 8 attacks.

On that note, I'd think about deploying your sentinels near the defiler, and using their scout moves to walk into a 'blocking' position from the enemy heavy weapons. Blocking LOS will shield your caster for a few turns

How do you expect Sentinels to block LOS to a Defiler? Are these some special kind of gigantic Sentinel?

On the other hand, I agree with your suggestion to keep the multilasers on the sentinels. I like multi-shot weapons when I'm working with BS3.

Looks like a pretty good list, Migs. It will be interesting to see how it plays.  If I were you, I'd pump tinfoil for more input.  He plays a very nice LatD army.

I'm not entirely sure what the point of the dogs is, they move as cavalry right? I'm not entirely certain they're worth the points in the list, especially as you really need some points elsewhere, and while speedier than some, they're still not that speedy.

Have you thought about giving your Lord a personal icon? Sure, he infiltrates, but none of your other combat units do, with a personal icon he could summon your daemons to himself and give your opponent serious trouble by second turn.

As for the Sentinels, I'm worried about their survivability in the list. You won't be presenting many visible tank units, as both the Defiler and the Basilisk will be firing indirect. The only other logical target for your opponents AT weapons is going to be your two AV10 walkers. That's part of the reason I would reconsider making them more expensive by giving them lascannons, and while I know it's a great modelling opportunity I'd advise dropping them outright. With them gone you could have another Obliterator, or another squad of Daemonettes to help out your combat situation, and they both seem like much better choices.

And I know you'd hate to hear me say this, but if you're looking for points the first place I'd go would be the Spawn. Also, the aspiring champs. I know you need at least one, but with your Lord, the Daemonettes, and the powerfists in the mutie squads I'm not sure the extra punch from the champs isn't just redundant. Especially as they're walking along with everyone else. Not to mention that each one is almost as much as another traitor squad! I'd say drop one, maybe downgrade the other to a stock power weapon.

Turtle.

The dogs move 6+d6+12 (like cavalry) and are quite cheap for that. They take care of IG squads, Guardians, Some Gaunts etc. on their own or add some numbers to other combats. I quite like what they have going on for them, especially the speed, which is something I lack.

I'm already paying a lot for the icons considering I only have one unit of daemons. If the Lord Infiltrates, so will atleast one traitor squad to give him support/ un-targetability.

Scoring units are huge in the tournament metagame, and sentinels give me two scoring units with little points, plus some punch and useful units to tie enemy infantry with. The Defiler doesn't have indirect actually. I will consider getting back to multilasers, but then I feel I need more lascannons against Monoliths and Hammerheads and Predators etc.

The aspiring champs stay. All the succesfull LaTD armies I've seen discussed about have had some and equipped with fists. While the Spawn are SandT 5, have two wounds, 3+ save and D6 attacks each! For 20 points. I'd take 3 units on 5 if I had the slots

migs:

I laugh when I read about playing with C.Hounds. I laugh because they can be usefull. I played a squad of 10 and they tied up a squad of Raveners for two turns. Gave me time to line up a shot or two at them. The funny part about the C.Hounds is that in the first round of combat, I lost 9 out of 10 Hounds. My one hound took out 1 of his Raveners, then it was time to do my Ld roll. Rolled 2 ones. My poor, brave, stupid puppy. He got squished a few times over the next round of CC. ;~)

How do you expect Sentinels to block LOS to a Defiler? Are these some special kind of gigantic Sentinel?

Basic LOS rules - LOS cannot be drawn through a size 3 target (sentinel).

True, but a Defiler is quite a bit wider than a Sentinel, and taller.  Even if you lined up three Sentinels abreast, you'll be able to shoot over them, or easily get shots on an angle (and this is IF you use the more restrictive magic cylinder rules; if you play the "real way" (that's right, I'm biased) then you can still shoot 'tween the Sentinels).

The Size categories (1, 2 and 3) only come into play while tracing LOS through Area Terrain and close combat. Otherwise the LOS of the model is used. So no screening of Defilers with Sentinels, sorry.

I'd consider a Leman Russ insted of a direct fire Defiler - AV12 isn't enought to weather the oncoming lascannon storm, AV14 just might. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine has had a success with a LatD "Armoured Company" featuring 3 Russes and a Hellhound.

IMO Furies would be a better choice than Hounds - although it may take a while for them to appear, at least they're safe until they do so. The Hounds will take a Morale Check just after 2 casualties and might run off early and can be hunted down by Land Speeders etc. I5 and S5 go a long way too in favour of the Furies. 

Basic LOS rules - LOS cannot be drawn through a size 3 target (sentinel).

As noted, you are misreading the LOS rules. I would advise looking once more at pages 20 and 7. Size categories are only used in relation to shooting over an assault or a piece of area terrain. Otherwise you use real LOS when firing at vehicles, so Sentinels will offer precious little protection to a Defiler.

Mig, I think Ishmael has a good point.  A Russ might live a bit longer, though it doesn't offer quite as much conversion potential as a Defiler.  I think the dogs vs. Furies issue is a bit of a tossup though.

Posted By Ishmael on 04/03/2006 2:34 AM

I'd consider a Leman Russ insted of a direct fire Defiler - AV12 isn't enought to weather the oncoming lascannon storm, AV14 just might.

 

I like the list Migs, got a lot of variety going for it, and quite a bit of killiness too. On the defiler / russ issue, I say keep the defiler, largely for modeling reasons and general awesomeness, but try to work mutated hull in there. Drop the dirge caster and you've got 23 points already, though I'll admit that I'm having trouble finding where the last 7 points can be cut from ...

- Boss Salvage

Why do people need an oversized defiler? If you put the torso onto just the four legs it makes WAY smaller and more reaslistic. I always thought to myself how something so huge can have indirect and EXPECT to stay alive. Also the sents don't always have to screen defiler, sents are made to use their scout move to hide from anything threatening while lining up for that important shot.

Defiler vs. Russ
I understand the value of AV14, but ignoring shaken and stunned + hth ability is a big bonus for the Defiler (alongisde of the modeling aspects and the fact that I already have an IG army with two Russes.)

On the Fury issue I'm agreeing so much that I'm trying to work them in to the list.

1 Chaos Lord (HQ) (cs) @ 136 Pts
#Daemonic Resilience; Mark of Nurgle; Bolt Pistol (x1)
#Infiltrate 15
Daemonic Strength 10
Daemonic Speed 15
Manreaper 25
******
Drop the chaos lord. For 136 points, that's 15 more mutants, much more important to how a LatD list runs.

2 CSM Aspiring Champion (HQ) @ 128 Pts
Mark of Chaos Undivided; Power Fist (x1); Bolt Pistol (x1)
Daemonic Visage 2
****
You forgot mutation. Must take mutation. With mutation, the A/Cs have 5 attacks on the charge, along with 5 attacks from the Bosses. (Remember, bosses start out at 3 attacks with a close combat weapon, add a power fist and they go up to 4 base, no matter what AB says).

1 Obliterator @ 70 Pts
****
Drop it. At 1500 you don't need it.

6 Daemonette (Elites) @ 90 Pts
***
Drop it. Demons too unpredictable. Don't include them until you hit 1850 and throw in 3 obliterators and a small unit of furies.


15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ ?] Pts
CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades
****
At least 22, if not 26.

15 Mutants (Troops) @ 130 Pts
CC Weapon; Flamer (x2); Frag Grenades
1 Mutant Boss @ ?] Pts
CC Weapon; Power fist; Frag Grenades
***
See above. 22 is smallest size you want.

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades
*****
Autocannons work really well for infiltrating traitors. Only take 5 because they're a speed bump. At 55 points for 5 plus an autocannon, infiltrating and sniping at stuff 48" away, you don't care what they do. Drop the flamer. you don't want them close, and you want someone to send a 200 point unit off to a flank to assault them so that it's out of the fight.

6 Traitors (Troops) @ 76 Pts
Lasgun (x4); Lascannon (x1); Flamer (x1); Frag Grenades
****
This should be 2x5 CSM, Tank hunter, lascannon 120 points each squad. That's your anti armor. you don't need more until you go up in points, when you add the obliterators and the furies.

8 Chaos Hounds (Fast Attack) @ 80 Pts
****
Outstanding. Greatest unit in LatD arsenal.

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 55 Pts
Lascannon

1 Sentinel (Fast Attack) @ 55 Pts
Lascannon
****
Okay, if you insist on using Sentinals, group them together and take autocannons. Again, with the scout move they're decent at getting flank shots on tanks. They're also good for infantry.


5 Chaos Spawn (Heavy Support) @ 100 Pts
****
Yup. Excellent. Taking these will keep other things alive. Strongly suggest converting them, maybe from the Giant Sprue or something else that looks really scary. Once you say S5, T5, and D6 attacks, people will pump lots of shots into them and they will ensure survivability of the smaller CSM squads.

1 Chaos Defiler (Heavy Support) @ 165 Pts
Front Armour: 12; Side Armour: 12; Rear Armour: 10; Battle Cannon; Reaper
Autocannon; Heavy Flamer
#Daemonic Possession ?]
Dirge Caster ?]
****
If you take the Basilisk to be indirect, then this needs to be bumped up a little in survivability. I saw your comments about the Russ, but I like taking a Russ and direct fire Defiler. That gives someone the choice of shooting a Defiler in cover, or a Russ in LOS. Not exactly a good choice to have to make. If you do that, then going with a stock defiler (or adding IF for those occasions when you need it) is fine.

1 Basilisk (Heavy Support) @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
****
As I said, I like the Leman Russ/Defiler synergy, but this could work too. Given that someone only has so may shots a turn, I want them to have to think about what to shoot at. Leman russ, Defiler, Spawn, Mutants, Hounds, str 10 lascannon teams. (all of which are legitimate targets for shooting).

Models in Army: 77


So, to sum up, you've got an interesting list. I suggest trying to get some synergy and duplication working. I usually find that I don't need more than 2 lascannons and 2 pieplates at 1500 points. Everything else is there to make an opponent split fire and try to have him make decisions. Meanwhile, 50 ld 10 mutants with 10 x 2 PF attacks on the charge are heading up the center of the table and then working out. (I call the tactic, "Flower blossom opens in morning" but maybe I've seen a little too much Drunken Master recently.)

I don't like lascannons on traitors, I use them as sacrificial lambs to be slaughtered as needed. (against Khorne or BTs, you may be able to get him charging of in a random direction with them.)

When you go higher, the obliterators work well because if you shoot the obliterators, pie plates rain down on you. If you shoot the pie plates, the Chaos Spawn reach your line. If you shoot the chaos spawn, the obliterators pick, you apart.

Anyway, LatD are fun no matter how you put the army together.

Thanks Papa!

That was most usefull I can see all the gaming reasons for your well argumented tips.

This will be down to getting it to work well (no comp tourny well) vs. to have the needed theme and possibilities for best army at a UK GT level competition. Hopefully as little compromise as possible.

damn you migs for tempting me to have another go at my LATD!! After my brothe'rs NL army that i am painting i might be tempted to do LATD in time for Medusa!! Oh so many choices... i'm sure once i start seeing pics of your progress it's going to be a sure decision.

I'll be usin my guard, Inquisitors and the new Marines for Medusa. This project will not make medusa