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I know it's a lot but please read before commenting.

Now we have all seen the potential to the 6 flyer marine list. On another thread another user asked whether a 12 flyer dual force org would be viable or indeed legal at 2k points. The answer to both is a straight NO. I also immediately dismissed the idea of it occuring in a 3k list, as whilst it is legal, having almost 2/3s of your points in the air and not turning up until turn two seems uttery unviable. However whilst at work today, in a bored moment whilst my class were doing an hour long test and I was merely twiddling my thumbs, my only task to catch cheaters, I began to think again.
Now this IS NOT made to be the most competative list, and by the end I will discuss why. What it is, is a SM list that can include 12 flyers for novelties sake and have a bloody good go at anyone who doesn't take a serpent spam.
So here is the list:

Iron Hands Chapter Tactics
HQ
Chapter Master
Bike, Artificier Armour, Shield Eternal, Powerfist/Relic Blade, Digital Weapons

Librarian
Force axe

Troops
5 man scout squad with bolters (x12)

Fast attack
Stormtalon (x6)
TL Assault Cannon, Skyhammer Missile Launcher

Heavy Support
Stormraven (x6)
TL Assault Cannon, TL MultiMelta, 4 Bloodstrike Missiles

Fortifications
Agis with Comms Relay

Total:3k points

Now I know what you think straight away - those scouts are going to be blasted off the board in short order, even if there are 60 of them. But the role of the scouts is not to stand and shoot, it is to go to ground, hide behind LOS blocking terrain, and generally run away from scary melee/short range death weapons. Unless against horde where every gun is needed, they will have gone to ground and many won't even be in sight until turn 4/5 when they advance on objectives. If it looks like there is no possible chance that I can save 2 or 3 units of scouts on a flank, the flyers won't focus on units threatening those scouts, but instead focus on enemy units threatening scouts which CAN be saved. Like a doctor choosing to treat those he can save rather than those with the worst injuries. A unit or two has no problem being sacraficed to delay or distract the enemy. Having so many scouts spread across the board will make assault and drop armies have to split up as well. Whilst a 6+ fnp doesn't sound like much, it will grant on average 10 extra wounds overall against st7 or below attacks. 60 spread out should help against being tabled by alpha strike lists.
The chapter master is a solid counter-attacking unit who can tank shots for a scout unit for a couple of turns before he has to move forward (he will be sat on the comms). Hopefully he will draw fire away from the scouts. He has digital weapons as there were 10 points spare and the scouts need to be hiding or mobile so the points wern't being spent on snipers. He's quite durable with t5 4w 2+/3++/6, eternal warrior and IWND. The libby is there for tax.
The comms relay is THE most important thing in this list.
Skyhammer missiles on the talons is just massively worth the 15pt upgrade, and the talons will be escorting the ravens. First two turns from arriving, the flyers will zoom towards the enemy and get 2 rounds of shooting at front and side armour. the 3rd turn after arriving they will all go into hover to turn, avoid going off the board edge, and maneuver to get rear armour shots/reduce chance of cover on units. With all dropping out of zoom at the same time, the enemy can only focus on a few, giving the others a risk-free skimmer move. Every turn the flyers will get; 6 tl mutimelta shots, 48 tl assault cannon shots (24 at bs5), 18 sky hammer shots, and 12 bloodstrike missile shots (these for 2 turns). Whilst many armies at 3k will have more firepower than this, the enemies firepower will be being reduced significantly turn by turn, whilst with these 12, being flyers, their firepower will not be reduced anywhere near as much by comparison. They are the business end of reducing the enemy to such an extent that the scouts can move in and do their job late game.

Now the weaknesses: Whilst trying to fit in 12 flyers to be competitive, this list has ended up losing some competitiveness due to a serious lack of durable, hard hitting ground troops. Whilst so many scouts going to ground will be hard to shift, the player cannot afford to let the scouts get in protracted firefights or risky assaults.
Lack of transports: the scouts will have only 2 guarenteed turns to footslog onto objectives (maybe more), move through cover will help to some extent, but that realistically puts their capturing range between 18 and 20 inches. Infiltrate and scout can help at the start of the game but is risky as it will usually put the scouts closer to the enemy.
Unsupported warlord: Whilst it would be an advantage for the player to have the chapter master absorb a mega ton of the enemies shots, the master will very often die giving away STW points.
Mobile Tau and Serpent Spam: against ignores cover weapons, the scouts NEED to hide behind LOS blocking terrain. Non-gunline tau, and a serpent spam will just fly around this cover.
And that is why it is not as competative as the IDEA of 12 flyers is. It'd be fun to play though. It would come down to, can the enemy wipe out enough scouts before the flyers cripple him?
What do you think?

And in case you were wondering... No-one cheated.


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Oh and the flyers will all have IWND of course...

I would get hurricane bolters on the ravens at 3k I can put about 250+ marines on the board

Jpat1213 wrote:
I would get hurricane bolters on the ravens at 3k I can put about 250+ marines on the board

I gotta see this list of over 250 marines at 3k. I am not sure it is possible.

250 unupgraded scouts would come to 2750. Leaving you with 250pts for hq. Plus 250 scouts would take 5 FoCs. 3000/250=12 so to get 250 models you'd have to average 12pts a model. Even tyranids would struggle at that if they took even a reasonable amout of MCs!


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Im a maths teacher you see. I understand if you meant 150+. But even with 150 models you are averaging 20ppm. If thats what you meant, you are either running your basic squads naked, or you are investing in a few upgrades which means you dont have many points left for anything which is not a standard marine.
Your point about the hurricane bolters however is relevant because if the player does turn up against a 250+ model ork or nid army, whilst it can ignore a third or a half of it by sacrificing some scouts, the hurricanes will help with reducing the rest. To do so though, the player would have to drop 10 scouts and the digital weapons for hurricanes on all the ravens. Has its advantages and disadvantages.

When I hear marine that generally means not the scouts. So lets go with the cheapest variant of 13 points per CSM. Bare bones for 250 of those its 3250. There is no way.

Yeh lets go for normal marine prices then. 1 tac squad with a heavy and spec weapon, with a drop pod (as lets face it - 120 footslogging marines is very unwieldy.) Comes to a minimum of 200pts. 12 squads comes to 2400pts, 2 libbys to 130pts. 3 squads of 10 man assault marines will bring it slightly above 3000pts. But there is your 150+ models... with NO tactical flexibility, and unable to buy any juicy slots from HS Elites or FA. But 250+? No chance!


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Ps. Embarrasingly enough just realised dropping those 10 scouts and digital weapons only nets me 4 hurricanes not 6.

Any suggestions apart from hurricanes? Changes? Tactics?


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Ps. It did take me a bloody long time to write it :-p.

 dreadnova wrote:
When I hear marine that generally means not the scouts. So lets go with the cheapest variant of 13 points per CSM. Bare bones for 250 of those its 3250. There is no way.

Its a little over exaggerated, but ya I can still put a full company... + goodies all on the board.
As for another army such as orcs or even nids they can put a hole butt load. your 12 flyers wouldn't be able to push him off whatever he wants at 3k.

As to only making 4 and not 6 I would drop the CM to a MOTF or even a captain and dropping one of the close combat weapons

All that equipment on the CM will not be needed if your plans is to bring pain via flyers. A captain will serve. With hurricanes, you can drop half of the scouts to get some tacticals. Finally you can maintain the scouts but get some missile launchers.

Right so more hurricanes. No need for the chap master counter assault then guys? You sure? He can eat even high velocity bullets/plasma for breakfast. Maybe i'm in the beer goggles stage of looking at the chap master :-p. You reckon the better save of the tac will be better than massing the scouts then?

Btw this list is highly theoretical and I would never in a million years invest in 12 SM flyers!

If you need to counter assault, some honour guad with a less blinged CM can do better. Champion + 4 honor guards with plus CM get 15 attacks. All then can be given relic blades, and all of then can benefit from IH CT.

You may have a point, although i feel it either needs mass foot troops going to ground or something durable. An honour guard could work though. If doing that id rather invest in another cheap libby rather than the captain to free up even more points for more scouts, don't want mls though as they are expensive on models i dont want standing and trading shots with the enemy.