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I'm getting ready for a 2250 Double FOC tournament at my LGS in about 3 weeks. I happen to own 26 Kans, because every now and then over the years I've gotten a new idea for throwing together another unit of the things, and the pile has just grown. Unfortunately, Kanwall is straight awful, so none of them has seen any serious use in a long while.

I originally had the idea to ally FW Dreadmob to regular Orks for a bunch more Kans, not thinking it would be any good at all but looking to play a fun little one off with some of my favorite models, and the list did really well (against Deathwing, mind), so here I am looking at all my Kans going "Oh wow, I could throw all these on the table in this tournament!" Sexy!

I've since been fiddling and fussing with different lists to try and make a reasonably competitive Kanwall list at this points level. So far, I've done fairly well; I'm 3-1 in my test matches (using the first list below) against Dark Eldar (4 turn massacre), 6-Hornet-Eldar (4 turn got massacred), Salamanders (3-4 turn massacre), and IG Gunline with White Scars Allies (6 turn bloodfest). The list I've been using performs just about as expected, capable of beating most of the more common opponents handily, but getting thrasheed pretty badly against armies with heavy firepower that don't care much about S6. Eldar and T'au, namely, are pretty much expected to beat the list to a pulp, and that's a problem!

I'm looking for the right allies additions to try and make this list really work well against the armies that count. I consider myself a pretty good player, so I'm not afraid to go up against most of the people in the area, and am pretty confident I can pull good points away from most situations; but there are always some armies that you just can't handle on wits alone: you need the right tools for the fight. My first list below does not have the tools to beat Eldar or T'au. Can you help me find them?

LIST 1 (Currently in use)
HQ: Bikerboss (Cybork, Klaw, Kombi-Skorcha, Attack Squig)= 155
HQ: Megaboss (Cybork)= 110
HQ: Big Mek (KFF)= 85
HQ: Big Mek (KFF)= 85
Troops: 6 Bikernobs (Painboy, 2 Klaws, Cyborks, Bosspole, Banner)= 500
Troops: 4 Meganobs in Trukk (BS, Ram)= 200
Troops: 15 Shootas= 90
Troops: 15 Shootas= 90
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135

Total=2250

Things to add generally somehow: 3rd Dakkajet is a must-have.

Now, for my first idea, I've gone to Necrons, but I'm having real trouble making things fit: I want the Stormlord, sort of, because super-night-fight and very reliable first turn are both wonderful things for a combat based list that brings its own cover. (Not so much against T'au, but hey, it'll get me to the final round.) Problem is, he's god dang expensive. And of course I also want 2 croissants with 5 warriors each, and an annihilation barge....

But what of the above do I remove to fit them in? If I remove too many Kans, the whole point of the list is basically dead, and I might as well just change it all around completely. The Nob Mobs are a huge factor in getting the Kans across the table, because even at 2250 it seems so far impossible for my opponents to kill them all off in a single turn, and when 2 nob mobs jump 24" straight at your face turn 1, you really have to focus on them first. Basically I feel as if everything works together in the list right now, and the points required to get in the stuff I need to beat T'au and Eldar mean undermining some or other aspect of the list to the point that aspect becomes more a hindrance than a help.

I really want to make this work, but I'm not making any confident conclusions on the matter myself. "Help!"

Thanks in advance.

I want a picture of that army

Unfortunately I have the same problem, Eldar are just too fast to pin down. And a T'au fire line can rip he kan's apart with a storm of pulse fire. The kans get glance to death in an instant.

If you had to drop something, I would say try to drop the bikes and the Biker boss. They're taking up 655 points of your army (and there's only 6 nobz and one boss).Also I would drop the meganobs. Take more squads of boyz to hold objectives (or if you want take the crons). If you drop the bikerboss, mega boss, bikes and mega nobs you end up with around only 1300 points.
add the extra boyz and get 1650 ( adding 4x15 shoota boys squads)

If you're a fan of having something speed up into the enemies face, take some deffkoptas. They've done well for me. And a squad of 5 of them with Big Shootas is only 170 points as compared to the bikes at 500 points. Also, you can give them a anti tank possibiity for 50 points more and give them rokkits.
Add this to the list
you're at 1865 points. So add the dakkajet and you still have 250 points to play around with.

I know the Bikes are great fun, but I've always seen them as... a waste of points. That's why I gave the deff koptas a try, they are almost just as survivable so if you're using them as a distraction they work just as well. You could even use two squads of them and they would still be less than your bikes!

Also where are your lootas? They're great against T'au because they out range a fire line. Put them behind an ADL and bring a squad of gretchin to man the flakk gun. You'll make a mess of any fliers.

Just some thoughts. Have fun mate!

I've done the Loota ADL thing, could possibly add them in again. Thing about the Nobs, they've easily been the most impressive unit in the army so far. Even the eldar couldn't come close to killing them turn 1-- either squad. So the guy fed 20 guardians and a Serpent to the bikes and ran and hid from my MANz after killing their trukk. They've just been impossible for my opponents to deal with so far, always require a couple turns of attention, which is perfect for the kan wall.

But, this is about exploring options and trying to find things that work. So next few games I'll cut all the nobs, and we'll see where this goes. I do have 9 Koptas I can throw into the list on top of the Kans. The army will look really cool on the table, at least!

Okay, here's a totally different list, because I also have 15 Kannonz, 12 Zzap Guns, and 6 Lobbas, none of which have seen use in a long while. How does this look to fare against 2FOC Tau or Eldar?

HQ: Big Mek (SAG)= 95
HQ: Big Mek (KFF)= 85
Elites: 10 Lootas= 150
Troops: 24 Shootas= 144
Troops: 24 Shootas= 144
Troops: 10 Grots + Runtherd= 40
Troops: 10 Grots + Runtherd= 40
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, Ace)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, Ace)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, Ace)= 130
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
HS: 3 Kannons= 60
Ally HQ: Necron Lord= 90
Ally Troops: 5 Warriors in Nightscythe= 165
Ally Troops: 5 Warriors in Nightscythe= 165
Ally HS: Annihilation Barge= 90
Fort: Fortress (Krakstorm, 4 HB)= 290
Total=2248

I would take 6 Jets, but no, I do not happen to own that many, and no, I do not have plans to run out and buy three more just for one tournament.

I've never actually used the Fortress, so I will have to try it out some. I could take 2 more conventional fortifications instead, and maybe get myself a comm-link to get all 5 flyers on the board turn 2. DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!

Thanks for any help.

Wait...What happened to the Kanwall? Here's what I had for you.

HQ

Big Mek, KFF-85
Big Mek, KFF-85
Big Mek, KFF-85

Troops
16x shoota boyz-96
16x shoota boyz-96
16x shoota boyz-96
16x shoota boyz-96
16x shoota boyz-96

Fast Attack
Dakka jet, SS, FA-130
Dakka jet, SS, FA-130
Dakka jet, SS, FA-130
5x Deffkoptas, rokkits-225
5x Deffkoptas, rokkits-225

Heavy Support

3x Kans, Grotzookas-135
3x Kans, Grotzookas-135
3x Kans, Grotzookas-135
3x Kans, Grotzookas-135
3x Kans, Grotzookas-135

Really, you should give the deffkoptas a try, with a 4+ arm, and 3+cover (if you turbo burst them), toughness 5 and two wounds, I gaurentee that they will be a mess to deal with as a distraction. Also, if you want to give them more hitting power in CC you can always arm one or more of them with a buzz saw, which will give them some serious power against power Armour and tanks.PLUS the rokkits will tear crap apart. And they have scout, so you should be able to get them up and into CC as fast as you want. The reason I brought to many boyz is because you'll need them to capture and hold objectives. (duh) and the three meks should give cover (duh)








Automatically Appended Next Post:
But seriously, 10 deffkoptas with rokkits is only 450.... pretty freaking sweet

agreeing on how somedays deffkoptas can be good.
i like the OP list better than all of the suggestions. i have yet to see kans work in awhile. but seeing this makes me wanna try it out again!
i like the "CAMACASI" MANz just to take some bulelts
and switching out all the kans for kannons just makes it unfun.

Okay, well, I've basically thrown out the kannon idea after a couple test games, so back to Kanwall fun. The Kannon list is just not my style at all.

What about the following variation on the original theme? I've weakened the nob mobs a bit, but I've added more units to throw at the enemy line so that should also mean the firepower allotted the nobs will be diluted, perhaps even to a greater extent. Not sure how I feel about it. The army will certainly look really cool, though.

I'm on the fence about koptas. Sometimes they rock, but I threw some down in a friendly last Friday and had 5 of them fail to even glance the side AV10 of a chimera. Anyhow:

HQ: Bikerboss (Cybork, Klaw)= 135
HQ: Megaboss (Cybork, Bosspole)= 115
HQ: Big Mek (KFF)= 85
Troops: 5 Bikernobs (Painboy, Klaw, Cyborks, Bosspole, Banner)= 325
Troops: 3 Meganobs in Trukk (BS, Ram)= 160
Troops: 9 Sluggas + Nob (Klaw, Bosspole) in Trukk (BS, Ram)= 140
Troops: 15 Shootas= 90
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: 3 Koptas (TLRL)= 135
FA: 3 Koptas (TLRL)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135

Total=2250

Also, I made a mental error on the bikernobs. I normally play them 8 strong, and have been forgetting to adjust the points down when taking them as a 6-nob unit! D'oh. Gave me some extra play points.

EDIT: Additionally, I wonder about TLRL Buggies? Less points than the Koptas, would benefit from a KFF, and not prone to turn and run after the first casualty. This might sound stupid but I think I like them....

I like the lists.

I'm a huge fan of the kans, but they just don't cut the mustard in competitive play. If you're only playing for fun then they're all good, but you may be in for a long day if you're taking this to a tournament. If you're allowed I'd consider the dread mob as you can then take them as fast attack and in units of 5.

I'd drop the mega nobz and trukk, sluggas and trukk and replace them with 2 units of 20 and one unit of 25 shoota boyz with no nob leader. Use them to screen the kans as they cross the field and then provide supporting fire once in range.

I've noticed lately that the nob with boss pole just isn't worth it. You're either winning the combat and not needing the nob and bosspole or losing and he doesn't make a difference anyway.

my two cents.

Good luck!

Crispy

Seconding the Dread Mob thing - because no true Ork can have 26 Kans and not want to field all of them at the same time!

With regards to Big Guns, take a bunch of dirt cheap Lobbas and hide them. No more crappy Gretchin Ld seeing them run after 1-2 casualties, and also, no more enemy troops on the field!

I mentioned that I had considered Dreadmob in the OP, but it doesn't have some of the options I really feel I need to make the list competitive. Namely Dakkajets, but real hard combat units are another piece missing. I would consider them as allies for sure, though, if I could find a way to fit them in reasonably.

I needed kannons as the best AT in the list; they have the ability to pummel things that lobbed simply can't touch. But anyway, I'm don't with that list.

Here's what I've got available for this list if anyone wants to throw a suggestion together:

26+ Kans
3-5 jets (would need to scratchbuild 2 with nightscythe bits, I'm all for that plan!)
Bikerboss and up to 30 bikernobs
Megaboss and up to 20 meganobs
Meks of every sort in multIples
3 deff dreads
30 grits
70-80 boys
50+ Nobs
5 wagons
4 looted wagons
8 trukks
9 koptas
9-12 buggies
30+ Lootas
15+ kannons
12+ zzap guns

and more, but I don't think the rest bears mentioning.

I agree with @Crispy, you need to have larger more durable troop choices, so taking the boyz mobs is your best bet. As for 5 koptas failing to glance an AV10 chimera... I guess it depends on what you armed them with if it was Big Shootas, that understandable. If it was rokkits that's just plain bad luck. By all logic there should have been at least 3 hits, of which one should have been a glance and one should have been a pen... BUT dice are dice

Y do that when you can have 90 lootas

As per the above list, I do not own 90 Lootas. Nor would I do that if I could, for that matter.

Koptas always have Rokkits. I like to pretend there aren't any other gun options for them......... Even so, and knowing the stats on that particular incident, they are a risky investment for 45pts each. Not particularly difficult to kill, and even less difficult to make run. I would throw them down essentially as a distraction for my opponent, to force some shooting away from bikernobs and things, but in such a case buggies are cheaper and require more high-powered weapons (slightly so, at least) to kill, as well as the assurance they won't up and run after losing just 1-2.

your troops are out of place with your kanz, Id suggest, if you do kanz, then do a green tide behind it, with like 2-3 kffs behind it, you have to much variety, if you do trukks, do ALOT of trukks, if you do bikes do ALOT of bikes, so yeah, I see you have a lot of this stuff, pick one and mass it out, dont just do a bit of each, you could do like 7 trukks, and then the bikes

New list thrown together:

HQ: Bikerboss (Cybork, Klaw)= 135
HQ: Big Mek (KFF)= 85
Troops: 5 Bikernobs (Painboy, Klaw, Cyborks, Bosspole, Banner)= 325
Troops: 9 Sluggas + Nob (BC) in Trukk (BS, Ram)= 115
Troops: 9 Sluggas + Nob (BC) in Trukk (BS, Ram)= 115
Troops: 15 Shootas= 90
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
FA: Dakkajet (3 SS, FA)= 130
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
HS: 3 Kans (Grotzookaz)= 135
Allied HQ: Necron Destroyer Lord (Scythe, Weave)= 140
Allied Troops: 5 Necron Warriors in Nightscythe= 165
Allied FA: 6 Wraiths= 210

Still 75 points left for playtime. What to do, what to do? List look any good in general?

Options: extra nob, whip coils to taste; Aegis and Comm-Link for flyers?