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Tank Hunters: ..."they add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (with any weapon), and automatically pass morale checks caused by tank shock"

Fury of the Ancients: "the power is used in the librarians shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the psychic construct will move in a straight line from the librarian to any point on any table edge. every unit in its path will suffer D3 strength 5, AP- hits and must take a pinning test. if the construct would hit a friendly unit or a unit locked in close combat it will dissipate just before impact and has no further effect"

im sure this must have come up before. but, does tank hunting librarian command squad get str9 powerfists against vehicles, str5 storm bolters, and str6 fury of the ancients?

i think in order to claim this, i'd need to show fury is 'any weapon'
gonna be vague evidence either way, but i think by the way it has a strength, and AP value, and happens in the shooting phase, means it must be a weapon.

i dont think theres much evidence of it not being a weapon, apart from its used 'instead of firing a weapon'. to me, this means instead of firing his gun. instead of using his normal weapon, he can use his other weapon, his psychic weapon that you pay 3 pts for.


so, if you have a librarian in a tank hunter squad, he's a tank hunter so his str4 stuff, his force weapon and storm bolter or whatever becomes str5 against vehicles.
does his fury become str6, or does it remain str5?

BGB, Page 28,

"Every weapon has a profile, which consists of several elements".

Fury lacks those elements, and hence is not a weapon.

Doesn't a powerfist not have those elements also?

All close combat weapons are defined on a different page.

hmm. several elements:

name
max range
strength
AP value
type

so, its
Fury of the Ancients
range is to the board edge
strength is 5
ap is -
type is psychic, (although not explicitly defined as such)

i think it fits those requirements better than some other things do like grenades and combat weapons and such

So to sum it up:

p1: Tank Hunters adds +1 to the penetration role of any weapon.

p2: All Weapons have a profile.

p3: Fury has no profile.

c1: Fury is not a weapon.

C2: Fury is not affected by Tank Hunters.

Edit: Spooky posted while I was writing.

You are questioning p3. Lets see how this will go.

It has every characteristic of a weapon. Strength, range, armor penetration. Fail to get how that isn't a weapon.

Ahoj!
Maybe it's a Psychic Power, not a Weapon?
Borys

"the power is used instead of firing a weapon". Thefore it is not a weapon it is something (psychic power) used INSTEAD of a weapon.

It makes no sense to say this is a weapon used instead of a weapon.

Rapid Fire, Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Template.

FotA isn't any of those, and those are the different types of weapons in the rulebook.

- Oaka

Posted By magine on 04/02/2006 7:20 AM
"the power is used instead of firing a weapon". Thefore it is not a weapon it is something (psychic power) used INSTEAD of a weapon.

It makes no sense to say this is a weapon used instead of a weapon.

And Drop pods can come in 'even when deepstrike isn't allowed'. Doesn't make pods deepstriking

Instead of firing my bolt pistol, I'm firing my bolter...Both are still weapons.

However, I'm not sold on Fury being considered a 'weapon'. I'm not quite sure that it's neccessary though. Consider the difference between these two statements.

'they add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (with any weapon)'

and...

'they add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle with any weapon'

The parentheses indicate a clarification rather than a requirement (Tank hunters used to only work with special/heavy weapons). If the rule was worded like the second statement, then I would be all for requiring it to be a 'weapon'.

"Instead of firing my bolt pistol, I'm firing my bolter...Both are still weapons."

I agree but it states this is us instead of firing a weapon. Firing a bolter instead of a bolt pistol is not doing something instead of firing a weapon. It is just changing weapons. instead would imply it is not a weapon but something different and like Borys stated, a psychic power. And drop pods well that is another debate entirely.

As for the two wordings provided by Skyth. They both would still make me believe that it has to be a weapon in whcih Fury is not.

Now Bolt of change has a profile of Range 24" Str8 AP2 assault 1
Does that mean it is a weapon? I think not, but it does say "Bolt of change is a psychic powerthat may be used in the model's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. When used Bolt of Change counts as a weapon with the following profile." I still would not put tank hunters on or expect to see it on it, but there is more of a legit argument there then fury.

With Fury you are taking what is in its description and interpreting a weapon profile. No doubt it has a profile but the one shown below is not a profile of a weapon. The rules state weapons on what weapon type is and psychic is not one and also states that "all ranges are given in inches." I have seen ranges of ridiculous amounts so if it was to have a profile they could have put range 500"

Fury of the Ancients
range is to the board edge
strength is 5
ap is -
type is psychic

A few questions about FotA.

1. Is it ever referred to as a weapon?
2. Does this mean that if you choose FotA that you can only choose one other weapon?
3. Is it a one handed weapon or a two handed weapon?
4. It seems that you can only use FotA when you are not firing a weapon, which if it is a weapon, the only time you can use it is when you can't use it. See what I did there?

Bolt of change "counts as a weapon' vs. Fury of the Ancients which says nothing of the sort.

Tank Hunter on bolt of change=yes.
Tank Hunter on Fury of the ancients=no.

It lacks a range (read the description of range) and type, hence it is not a weapon.

 

i think there is ambiguity at every step of that arguement.

p1: "Every weapon has a profile, which consists of several elements".

p2: "...add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (with any weapon)" is this a requirement for you to be using a "weapon"



problems:
p1. this is not a cast iron definition. several elements? str5, ap-, is multiple characteristics.
it also doesn't specifiy that an item without a profile can't be a 'weapon'. eg. close combat weapons don't fit in to this description. they also don't have the same kind of profile.

p2. does that read as: (with any weapon) -or- (with any weapon)
and anyway because its in brackets, is it a clarification or a requirement? ambiguity abounds.

maybe i'm just throwing up a worthless smoke screen or maybe this is actually a grey area?

Posted By DaIronGob on 04/03/2006 12:59 PM
Bolt of change "counts as a weapon' vs. Fury of the Ancients which says nothing of the sort.

Tank Hunter on bolt of change=yes.
Tank Hunter on Fury of the ancients=no.

Well... actually Bolt of Change can't combine with Tank Hunter, as it is only available for miniatures with the mark of Tzeentch, and no miniature with such a mark can choose veteran abilities.

Rgds

Posted By Spooky on 04/04/2006 4:00 AM

i think there is ambiguity at every step of that arguement.

p1: "Every weapon has a profile, which consists of several elements".

p2: "...add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (with any weapon)" is this a requirement for you to be using a "weapon"



problems:
p1. this is not a cast iron definition. several elements? str5, ap-, is multiple characteristics.
it also doesn't specifiy that an item without a profile can't be a 'weapon'. eg. close combat weapons don't fit in to this description. they also don't have the same kind of profile.

p2. does that read as: (with any weapon) -or- (with any weapon)
and anyway because its in brackets, is it a clarification or a requirement? ambiguity abounds.

maybe i'm just throwing up a worthless smoke screen or maybe this is actually a grey area?

On P1:

The statement "every weapon has a profile" precludes anything that doesn't have a profile from being a weapon. If it said "anything with a profile is a weapon, you'd have a point, but it doesn't.

I don't see any grey area at all here. And I'd love for my dual furies to be S6 when they're hunting pesky speeders.

Posted By mauleed on 04/04/2006 5:45 AM

The statement "every weapon has a profile" precludes anything that doesn't have a profile from being a weapon.

So are you saying that Tank hunters will not work with a power fist because a power fist doesn't have a profile like ranged weapons do?

No, a powerfist is specifically defined as a weapon on the page with the rest of the close combat weapons.

So not every weapon has a profile like the exact one used for ranged weapons...

I think it is pretty simple.

To use Tank Hunter, the model must be using a Weapon.

An item must be clearly defined as being a weapon.

Nothing in the FoTA entry CLEARLY defines it as being a weapon. It is not in the WEAPONS section of the wargear page, but the PSYCHIC POWERS section of the wargear page. The description of the power does not state that it acts specifically as a weapon.

Yes, the power has a strength, etc., but that is not enough. The rules are permissive. Unless the rules SPECIFICALLY state that FoTA is a weapon, we cannot assume that it is because it has a vague resemblance to one.

Sal.

Oh boy, lets play the thread synergy game! OK, so FotA isn't a weapon and I can't use tank hunter with it, fine, but if it isn't a weapon where are we left on the FotA must use LoS argument?

FotA already is specifically exempt from step 1 of the shooting process "Choose a target: Select an enemy unit.." (pg 18 BGB), and also by extension from step 2 "see if the target is within LoS and range" because FotA doesn't nominate a target in the first place. Now, if FotA isn't a weapon at all then the second part of step 2 "of the weaponry of your firing unit" also doesn't fit with FotA, nor do any of the other references to "weapon" in the shooting section. So I suppose I'll live with not using Tank Hunter if the trade off is no LoS.

Cheers

Oh boy, lets play the thread synergy game! OK, so FotA isn't a weapon and I can't use tank hunter with it, fine, but if it isn't a weapon where are we left on the FotA must use LoS argument?

Something can follow the rules for shooting and still not technically be a "weapon". There's no reason those two concepts have to mean the same thing (and they don't).

All psychic powers follow the rules for shooting unless specified otherwise. However they are not "weapons" as defined in the game unless they have a weapon statline or are specifically defined as being a "weapon".

All psychic powers follow the rules for shooting unless specified otherwise.

Yes they do, but as the ablity to relate FotA to any part of the shooting rules erodes I wonder when a phrase like "specified otherwise" begins to take on any real meaning. If FotA cannot be made to follow the shooting rules, and is furthermore not a weapon (a backdoor to the LoS argument), what are we left with?

We're left with simply following the rules in FotA itself, which work wonderfully simply all on their own.

We're left with simply following the rules in FotA itself, which work wonderfully simply all on their own.

I don't recall what this means from your pov Ed. Do you require LoS to the table edge when you use FotA?

Of course not. Just do what the rules for the power say: pick a point, draw a line. It really couldn't be simpler.

Wow, looks like I'm dredging up an old post

Anyways, I'd like to make an observation and see what you guys think:

"Tank Hunters: Tank Hunters are especially skilled at finding and expoiting weaknesses in the armour of enemy vehicles. They add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (with any weapon), and automatically pass morale checks caused by Tank Shock."

It seems that what we're all caught up on is the "with any weapon" part of the description. I think we're being too narrow with our view about "any weapon". It's not any "shooting weapon or close combat weapon because they're treated differently", but rather (in my view, of course) "anything that you can conceivably use as a weapon"

Powerfist attacks work with Tank Hunters right? It's not a "weapon" as described on page 28. And the rules for the powerfist/claw on page 46 don't even call it a "weapon", it's a "special close combat attack".

Grenades work with Tank Hunters right? Well, nowhere in it's description for use against vehicles does it mention that it's a weapon.

What do you think?

Space Marine codex, under "Single handed weapons": Powerfist T..........25/15 points.

It does not appear from the rules that Tank Hunter would work with Grenades.

It does not appear from the rules that Tank Hunter would work with Fury of the Ancients.