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All, been perusing the various arguments in this forum for a while and am fascinated (and dismayed) by the many RAW arguments and fallacies inherent in GW's poor rules wording. That being said, while reading the BBB (or actually the little blue book) I came across this problem:

How do Ordnance weapons handle wounding, casualty removal and partial hits?

 

PER the rules on pg. 29 of the LBB under Ordnance weapons, it details how to hit, scatter, etc with ordnance (i.e. placing the hole over a model, etc.) but it says nothing about partial hits, removing casualties, etc...

Next on the very next page, but under the heading of Blast Weapons, it details how to handle partial hits, removing casualties from the whole unit, etc.

However here is the kicker - under the heading of blast weapons it specifically says this in the second paragraph, "This section covers blast weapons fired by non-ordnance weapons only (ordnance weapons fire even large shells or missiles - these are handled using the rules for ordnance weapons.) All the rules for casualty removal, partial hits, etc are in THIS section.

There is later a section for Large Blasts, but it does not detail anything new regarding how to use the Blast rules (which specifically spell out that Ordnance weapons DO NOT use these rules) with ordnance weapons.

....

Stupid, stupid GW.

Now I know common sense dictates to use the blast rules on wounds, removal of casualties and partial hits... but according to the RAW there are NO means of deciding how to remove casualties from ordnance weapons, how to handle partial hits, etc...

So how do we resolve this?

Are ordnance weapons able to snipe since the rule about removing models from the whole unit do not apparantly pertain to ordnance weapons?

Do ordnance weapons not get partial hits on a 4+? If not are partial hits ignored or considered full hits?

I am interested in specific RAW rules that cover this and clarify (though I doubt there are any since I can't find anything to contradict the spelled out exception that Blast rules don't pertain to ordnance weapons).

 

NOTE: I would never play ordnance blasts as anything other than the same rules that cover blast markers, and am more interested in answers to fend off rules lawyers who will claim that their battle-cannon can snipe a powerfist sergeant or icon bearer due to this wording issue.

-Iron Father

There are no rules in the book for dealing with how ordnance weapons hit and wound models.

Yeah, I just noticed this question came up in the proposed FAQ that is at the top of this board.

So essentially until there is a FAQ, with RAW... there is no way to handle ordnance weapons other than a gentleman's agreement, dice off or tourney organizer's ruling?

You know if it wasn't for the model I already own and the players I enjoy playing against, I wouldn't play 40K... Any other enterprise that had as broken a rules-set as 40K has, and the lack of FAQs or updates would utterly fail.

Imagine a computer game that failed to fix exploits or bugs... but sadly, computer games have a plethora of competition... for your min-wargaming buck, there's still not much out there better then GW. That's just sad.

-Iron Father

Posted By Janthkin on 04/02/2006 3:58 PM
There are no rules in the book for dealing with how ordnance weapons hit and wound models.

Unless you use the Quick Reference Sheet (found on pages 266-267) that is.

"Unless you use the Quick Reference Sheet (found on pages 266-267) that is."

seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Actually not so much. If you look at the Quick Reference sheet it has a section under FIRING TEMPLATE WEAPONS titled WHO IS HIT? that refers to models covered by a blast marker or template and that models fully covered are hit, partially covered on a 4+.

Underneath these sections is the section for Ordnance or Barrage Weapons - that has no information about where to pull casualties from (under the template only? the whole unit? who knows)

I guess you could argue that the rules summary chart at the back of the book can provide the missing rules from the body, but that's stretching it I think.

And it still answers NOTHING about where to take casualties from... ala blast templates (when the rules for doing so specifically exclude ordnance weapons) or some made up formula since there ARE NO RULES to tell you how to remove them.

Just another example of GW's piss poor editing and testing process.

Ok, so I will go with the premise that the Quick Reference Sheet spells out how to hit models (ala totally covered auto and others on a 4+) but it still doesn't tell you if you can snipe with ordnance or to use the specificaly excluded blast rules...

Oh well, chalk it up to another example of GW needing a FAQ for these rules (which have been out for a while now with no FAQ for issues that keep coming up)

-Iron Father

Uh, look again. It's not 'under' the heading Firing Template Weapons. It is it's own section and applies all Blast Markers and Templates.

I did just look. That part of the QRF does NOT address my question of HOW do you remove casualties, it merely states how you determine hits.

The Quick Ref file has several disjointed sections - the parts in question are on page 89 of the little book and are separate sections - 1. Firing template weapons (flamers and the like); 2. Who is Hit (covering who is hit by BOTH blast markers and templates, and then 3. Firing Ordnance or Barrage Weapons. Not everything that applies to 1 applies to 3 and vice versa.

All it says in the quick ref file is to remove casualties, not HOW to do so.

My question is simply, if you use the blast marker but are told in the rules specifically NOT to use the rules for removing casualties from a blast marker... then how do you remove casualties? Again on page 30 of the rules, the section BLAST WEAPONS says specifically that it DOES NOT apply to Ordnance Weapons.

Iron Father

There are general rules for removing casualties. If a weapon type does not specify otherwise you would use the basic casualty removal rules.

That means vs. Ordnance weapons you can remove any model in the enemy unit that is within range and line of fire (sight) of the weapon.

The blurb in the blast weapon rules about being able to remove any model in the target unit is actually redundant. I suspect it was included simply because it is a change from 3rd edition and they wanted to make it extra clear.

Posted by Iron Father on 04/03/2006 12:49 AM
I did just look. That part of the QRF does NOT address my question of HOW do you remove casualties, it merely states how you determine hits.

You remove them the same way as you remove any casualty, regardless of what type of shooting attack it is.

Posted by Iron Father on 04/03/2006 12:49 AM
The Quick Ref file has several disjointed sections - the parts in question are on page 89 of the little book and are separate sections - 1. Firing template weapons (flamers and the like); 2. Who is Hit (covering who is hit by BOTH blast markers and templates, and then 3. Firing Ordnance or Barrage Weapons. Not everything that applies to 1 applies to 3 and vice versa.

So? The Who Is Hit? section tells you how to determine who's hit using a blast marker. Does Ordnance use a blast marker? Yes. Is there an exception listed that says it does not apply to Ordnance? No. Therefore it applies to Ordnance.

Posted by Iron Father on 04/03/2006 12:49 AM
All it says in the quick ref file is to remove casualties, not HOW to do so.

Because those sections only deal with the firing of those weapons. Unless otherwise stated, you'd still use the normal rules for casualty removal.

Posted by Iron Father on 04/03/2006 12:49 AM
My question is simply, if you use the blast marker but are told in the rules specifically NOT to use the rules for removing casualties from a blast marker... then how do you remove casualties? Again on page 30 of the rules, the section BLAST WEAPONS says specifically that it DOES NOT apply to Ordnance Weapons.

And again, you do so exactly as it states in the Shooting phase. Just because you use a different process to determine who's hit doesn't mean you use a different method to determine who's a casualty. All the Firing Blast Weapons, Firing Template Weapons and the Firing Ordnance Or Barrage Weapons sections do is tell you how those weapons vary from firing a normal weapon. Casualty removal is NOT firing a weapon.

Ok, clear enough on casualty removal. Just use the general casualty removal process. I guess I was confused because of the specific reference to casualty removal in the Blast weapons section.

Of course that does lead to an interesting situation... what do you do when a Ordnance shot scatters OUT of range and LOS of the weapon... Do the general shooting rules become null and void? What is the rule for this situation? Does the ordnance rule on scatter take precedence over the general casualty removal section? I am assuming yes, but assumptions (and using common sense) can often be counterproductive when discussing the rules.

-Iron Father

Read the FAQ at the top of this forum. The intent of the situation is rather unclear.

RAW, I contend that even if the blast marker scatters beyond range and LOS and hits models, only those models within actual range and LOS of the weapon are potential casualties. This concept was actually backed up by a Pete Haines unofficial ruling on the EOT board. It's kind of stupid and sensless, but that's what the rules appear to say.

"Does the ordnance rule on scatter take precedence over the general casualty removal section? I am assuming yes,"

i'm assuming yes, also. i also relize that we are probably just making azzes out ourselves,too!

in the BBB, pg. 29, "Scatter rolls can take the Blast marker beyond range or out of sight, representing the chance of ricochets, the round blasting through cover and other random chance."
it's not followed by"therefore, causing an automatic miss and having no effect", as in the previous paragraph, dealing with los and range.

procede to tear away.

It can hit out of sight/range, but casaulties cannot be removed from out of sight/range.

sometimes this damn game makes my head hurt!!!!

common sense

rule #1 special characters in a uinit cannot be sniped period as per the core rules on page 30(designers note) with a few exceptions-

examples-

-a certain imperial assasin has that ability whith his sniper rifle

-the master of the ravenwing does a flyby and comes within 2" in the movement phase

-characters not in a unit that are not the closest unit cannot be targeted.

hence sniping an IC with ordinance in a squad is impossible

common sence rule #2 all other template based weapons allow the player taking casualties to remove units from anywhere in the squads why should ordinance be any different unless it says so.

common sence rules #3 ordinance under 4th edition no longer misses if you guessed the range wrong-it still hits somehwere and still does damage to everything under it even if it scatters out of LOS or normal range. page 29 says this represents ricochets and chance

 

 

IMO... a fantasy game of this caliber with as many rules as you have, and to make it TRULEY as close to an actual battle scene as possible, is very difficult, and i think they've done a pretty good job molding the rules to what they have thus far (granted i'm still kinda new to this game)... Although i'm not 100% defending GW... in the player's defense i have to argue that they could have done a better job with makin rules 99% fool-proof before addition additional rules / units / and/or game play...