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Harbinger of Menoth
* Reckoner
Min Choir of Menoth
Min Exemplar Errants
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer
Knights Exemplar
Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Friends
Anastasia di Bray
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution
Dartan Vilmon
Paladin
The Covenant
Vassal

I'm somewhat new to Warmachine, I had a small force based around EKreoss, but I was able to sell a small stack of old mtg cards for store credit and get a bunch of Menoth models. In addition to the above models I have available: Gorman de Wolfe, Avatar, the Templar/Vanquisher/Crusader kit, and EKreoss. While I can reach 50 points with available models, I don't think that increasing unit sizes on stuff and adding the avatar is really that great a plan, correct me if I'm wrong.

I see slightly more active hordes in my area than WM, 3 troll players, at least 2 Legion, A Skorne guy, and one circle. I'm the only current Menite (some of the players don't really remember the last time they played vs menoth), but there is one Khador player (and he is new), 2 Convergence, 1 regular merc player (mostly dwarfs), 1 Ret, 2 Cygnar (both are new and are having trouble navigating the learning curve), no current Cryx. So far I've only lost 3 games out of 8ish, Twice to trolls, once to Legion, but all but 2 of those games were with 15 point lists. My loss at 35 was with a Jack heavy list vs trolls (the gun troll caster), he threw up walls and shot me to pieces, then sent his 8 wound infantry to soak my remaining units long enough to go for the final counter attack. I lacked ways to interfere with the enemy, so I made the above list to mess with the enemy more. It shut down the Cygnar player hard, his Jacks were effectively locked down and not being able to cast spells or give Jacks focus meant his didn't have much to do other than lean on his infantry. He killed 5 Errants and 5 Knights, both merc solos, and nearly boxed the Jack. He had 1 unit of infantry left, and a dead Caster at the end.

I think I might be a bit solo heavy, with 10 points in vilmon, pali, Eiryss, and Anastasia, but each one of them brings something to the table that I really think is worth it. Though the Pali/Vilmon is probably a bit much since they are only beatsticks rather than role players. I might have a bit too much jack support for only having one jack, I don't really have enough play time in to say one way or another.

Suggestions on substitutions on above list, and cheap and good ways to expand to 50 without requiring to many new purchases would be helpful (advice such as: "Get this unit and character" is good, but advice that requires me purchase multiple expensive kits and/or shelve what I have is not). This is really meant to be an all comers list for casual play, and as such imbalanced lists are also not something I'm interested in. Eventually I'll be building for multiple list formats, but that is a long ways off most likely.

Howdy notabot. Welcome to warmahordes

The list you are running at the minute is ok but there are a couple of serious issues. Firstly you have no real way to screen harby... If someone can eiryss the focus off her she is basically dead in this list. It's pretty expensive but the vengers are a great choice for the screen. Thee big bases block los to her and they can be martyred.

Also the knights exemplar seem to be wasted in here. They get harder as they die but harby keeps them alive. A little counter productive I think.

Looking towards 50 points I would add the avatar because he doesn't need focus from harby. I would also max the errants and take a look at zealots and UA. They are pretty expensive but very useful for other lists when you get around to this

Hope I have helped a little

George

A couple of comments. First, you should do everything you can to max the errants and add the piper. My personal suggestion would be to drop the knights exemplar. Secondly, what purpose are you taking eiryss for? Unless you need to enable assassinations a lot, the upkeep removal is redundant. Third, I find that Rhoven, while he has the potential to be an amazing problem solver, is a bit hard to fit in at 35. Since you have stated that there is only one circle player and no cryx, I am not sure how much he will provide you toolkit wise. Fourth, we have the issue of Harbinger's survivability. I would try and fit a devout into the list for shield guard and spell barrier to help with this problem. One reason to keep eiryss in the list would be to help with the upkeeps but allow harbinger to camp 3 more focus.

On to your concern about the amount of jack support and solos. For the jack support, taking a choir and vassal with one jack is not uncommon, and is something I usually do when able. About the solos, I do think you are a bit solo heavy with the main concern being about eiryss and Anastasia. While Anastasia does have the threat of espionage, I would drop her for Gorman personally to gain access to black oil and also a cloud for harbinger.

Well I haven't had much trouble keeping Harby alive so far, I keep her well away using the huge control range and spacing models smartly to get free strikes on most attempts to charge her. The solos have done good work taking out enemy solos trying to flank the screen.

I ended up dropping vilmon, as he is often either overkill, or ineffective (1 strong hit that could miss). This let me boost the Errants up to max size. I might still drop the other pali to get in the piper, and I dropped espionage girl for the gorman. I'm kinda torn on the vanq vs reckoner issue, getting to use flare before the assault with reck is pretty cool, but so is shooting the AoE burn with vanq.

I've done good work with the knights, they hit hard and take down harder stuff like heavy infantry and light beasts/jacks. A couple of them even 2 shot a legion heavy beast.

Eiryss 2 shuts down enemy jacks, which has been amazing for me. I haven't been using it for assassination running. Though I did nearly kill a caster using a vassal arcane bolt after she took her shot. It was a desperation move that took a total of 8 boxes.

As for protecting harby, not been a huge deal so far since I keep her back and have a lot of screening units that can take care of solos and I use the errants as countering fire. I haven't faced any heavy ranged armies other than cygnar, so that might be part of it. I managed to get a hold of a small ret force (35 pts of ravyn) in trade for more mtg cards so I can definately see where ranged assassinations can be scary for her.

I'd never bring a Harbinger list with less than 3 jacks. You also get more use out of your Choir that way too.

Something like this would be better

Harbinger
-Reckoner
-Vanquisher
Avatar
min Choir
Max Errants with UA
Vassal

Always ALWAYS run max units, except for Choir.

You have plenty of anti-infantry from the Vanquisher and Errants, and you have a bunch of heavy jacks(which is one of Menoth's strengths)

The Avatar is simply amazing. The only reason I wouldn't run the Avatar in a list is in a tournament because he's in my other list.

At 50 points I'd add a Heirophant, Devout, Wracks, Vilmon, and 2 Paladins.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd never bring a Harbinger list with less than 3 jacks. You also get more use out of your Choir that way too.

Something like this would be better

Harbinger
-Reckoner
-Vanquisher
Avatar
min Choir
Max Errants with UA
Vassal

Always ALWAYS run max units, except for Choir.

You have plenty of anti-infantry from the Vanquisher and Errants, and you have a bunch of heavy jacks(which is one of Menoth's strengths)

The Avatar is simply amazing. The only reason I wouldn't run the Avatar in a list is in a tournament because he's in my other list.

At 50 points I'd add a Heirophant, Devout, Wracks, Vilmon, and 2 Paladins.

.

That is not enough activations that matter in a turn to be able to beat the players I've been up against. Its effectively 3 jacks and unit of errants. I have the feeling that an effective 4 unit list like this would be out activated during scenarios, and not have enough punches in a turn to handle the high model count armies I see regularly. It also doesn't make particularly good use out of the martyrdom ability of harby (which works well with solos). I mean other than 10 focus, there isn't really anything that screams out being a jack caster.

I actually ran pretty much that list against a troll player, it got destroyed so hard because it relies on so few units.

As for the max unit issue, I distrust dogmatic proclamations like that. I've even seen high performance tourney list that run cheap min units (even with UA). That being said, I dropped vilmon in this to run a max unit, cause vilmon is more of a fun unit than a great unit.

Edit: it also appears this list is over on points. Harby -5, reck and vanq +16= 11+11 avatar= 22. Choir is 2 24, max errants +UA is 10=34 no room for vassel.

hmm, you are correct. I miscounted a point somewhere.

Anyway, 3 Jacks is hardly jack heavy for Menoth. Its pretty much standard operating procedure.

Besides, you are really only running 2 jacks. One of which uses almost no focus.

Jack centric lists do work, and work well, with Harbinger. She is very powerful at denying zones thanks to her feat.


I'm curious, what turn do you tend to feat on? I often feat on turn 1 after charging one of my own guys in the back to get the extra movement. That shuts down infantry opponents hard.

I also almost always play at 50 points, which is a better level than 35(balance issues can crop up there)

 Grey Templar wrote:
hmm, you are correct. I miscounted a point somewhere.

Anyway, 3 Jacks is hardly jack heavy for Menoth. Its pretty much standard operating procedure.

Besides, you are really only running 2 jacks. One of which uses almost no focus.

Jack centric lists do work, and work well, with Harbinger. She is very powerful at denying zones thanks to her feat.


I'm curious, what turn do you tend to feat on? I often feat on turn 1 after charging one of my own guys in the back to get the extra movement. That shuts down infantry opponents hard.

I also almost always play at 50 points, which is a better level than 35(balance issues can crop up there)

Well its 3 jacks because you are using 3 jacks worth of points. At 50 points I would have no issue running 3, especially these 3. At 35 points though I really feel the need for bodies for scenario play. Choosing between holding an objective and killing the enemy is one of the problems with low model count armies. As for the feat turn, I feat on turn 2 usually. It lets me set up charges without being mobbed by infantry. If I'm going for a jamming strategy, I'll feat turn 1 however.

As for the difference between 50 and 35, yeah, there is more balance issues with lower points in general, since its possible to build problems that can't be solved in 35 points. That is one of the reason why I'm jack light at this point level. Rhovon, Eiryss, and Covenent solve lots of problems.