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Kroot Mercenary Lists?

I just noticed that in the new tau codex, that their kroot only have 1 attack, but because of their kroot rifle they end up with 2?

Now in the Kroot Mercenary List, they have a base of 2 as they did in the old Tau Codex, now because of they way the Kroot Mercenary list is written, doesn't that mean they get 3 attacks base if armed with the Kroot Rifle because it counts as an extra hand to hand weapon?

This seems to matter to me, for the simple reason that wouldn't a shaper squad be able to attack 4 times each with eviscerators?  (basically a chain fist)

(The Kroot Army list is on the GW UK site, but not the others. . . )

The kroot merc list is a standalone list, you should NOT refer to the tau codex with it, so therefor, they have the 2 attacks as stated.

-Legacy40k

2 + the extra hand to hand weapon from their kroot rifles, or total?

2 Total, 3 on the charge.

-Legacy40k

How did you get that conclusion?

because that is what the rules say?

-Legacy40k

Well, first of all, let me say that, as a former Games Workshop employee (Seattle Battle Bunker redshirt), the first issue that needs to be addressed here is that, since it is the newest Tau Empire Codex, the rules for Kroot Carnivore squads in THAT publication should be considered the MOST current and therefore applicable to any previous army lists that use "Kroot Carnivore Squads" in them. In the case of Kroot Merc armies, which I'm not sure if they're even RTT or GT-legal still, I would say use the most current listing and rules in the Tau Empire Codex, if Carnivore squads are the standard-issue troops in the Merc army list. In my personal opinion, the Merc Army should be re-written in light of these new rules from the new codex, and, I hope, will be in the near-future.

Now, to address the issue of how many attacks for a standard Kroot model. The army list entry states that a "Kroot" has the profile A 1 (p. 37). The trooper is "...armed with a Kroot rifle..." (p. 37) which gives them +1 A (p. 29). So, we are up to 2 attacks on a standard Kroot model. If a Kroot Carnivore squad were to charge, then, the Kroot would have a profile that would have A 2 + 1 for charging, giving a total of 3 Attacker per Kroot. At a possible 20 Kroot with Shaper and 12 Kroot Hounds, this unit can be pretty heavy-handed in close combat, even without special close combat gear such as power weapons or even grenades. Factor in other variables, such as the Fieldcraft special rule and the Infiltrate rule and this unit becomes even more appealing as a cheap, speed-bump type unit with the potential to hold the enemy up for at least a turn or two while your army repositions/deploys to deal with the survivors of the assault. Add the Kroot Hounds and Shaper and I would argue that this unit could go toe to toe with many more expensive assault units.

As always, these are NOT spoken from any position of authority, but are mearly opinions and observations of the personal nature. Mi dos centavos, if you will. Hope it helps with the discussion!

Aaron Bang

Posted by Banger0812 on 04/14/2006 6:49 AM
... since it is the newest Tau Empire Codex, the rules for Kroot Carnivore squads in THAT publication should be considered the MOST current and therefore applicable to any previous army lists that use "Kroot Carnivore Squads" in them.

No. If the Kroot Mercenaty list didn't reference Codex Tau before, they why should it reference Codex Tau Empire now? As has been stated, the Kroot Mercenary list is completely self-contained. You use the rules in that army list. Changes in other codices are inconsequential.

I agree with Ghaz, the Merc list is not like a Marine Variant list (BA, DA, SW) that depends on the basic Marine Codex for some of its entries, it is instead a completely self-contained autonomous list which just so happens to have items with the same names as certain items in the Tau Codex.

Banger0812: I'm not sure how long you've been lurking here before you joined but this forum is pretty much dedicated to strict rules interpretaions. You may be right that GW intended to make the new Tau dex the definitive source for Kroot stats, but without a caveat in the Kroot Merc dex we are just assuming. So we fall back on the strict reading of the two dex's. You may notice that once and a while something pops up about demon hunters assault cannons not behaving like Space Marine assault cannons. Pretty much the same issue.

Anyways, welcome to the boards!

Well, I've got something for you guys. I'm not sure what book YOU guys are reading, but my copy of Chapter Approved 2004 Kroot Mercenary Army list entry "Kroot Carnivore Kindred" has Kroot with an A 1 in the profile. Also, I am holding in my hands a copy of the original Codex:Tau 2nd printing-black border but with original picture), and under Kroot Carnivore Squad it has in it's profile A 1. So, my new question is, where did A2 in the profile come from?

I also checked with both the redshirts at the Battle Bunker and the rules trollz in Baltimore, who both confirmed that in ALL cases the most recent publication becomes the official entry for ALL previous incarnations of that entry in ALL previous Codices, be they directly or indirectly related, as in the case of Land Raiders in Daemonhunter armies and Assault Cannons, which I can only figure you mean the ones on Land Raider Crusaders or Land Speeders, in which case they would still have the same profile that the parent list produced with those units.

Glaive- haven't been "lurking" on here at all- this is my second day on and my second list entry. What do you mean by "strict rules interpretations"? Also, I still want to know where A 2 came from for a Kroot Carnivore? The most recent publications of the Merc Army list (CA 2004) says A 1, as do both the Tau Empire Codex and the 2nd printing of the old Codex: Tau. Please get check that you've got the most recent editions of your books! LOL!

Oh, and thanks for the welcome! : )

Also checked the A 1 stat on other Kroot variant squads. Headhunters have A 1, and so do Stalkers. A 1. No assumptions, just strict reading. : )

Posted By Banger0812 on 04/14/2006 2:19 PM
I also checked with both the redshirts at the Battle Bunker and the rules trollz in Baltimore

No offense, but you do realize that neither of those sources can provide official rules interpretations, right?  Particularly the trollz!

I mean seriously, if you call the trollz three times and ask them the same yes or no question, they will give you three different answers. I've seen it happen.

None taken, I know that's quite true, esp. of the trollz, but in this case, I think it works, mainly because it was corroborated by both sources. Furthermore, if you called, for instance, GW LA, the west coast headquarter, or a Bunker in Chicago, or New York, they would also agree with this particular ruling concerning consistancy. However, the real question here is, where did the A 2 come from? I even went to the link on the UK site for the Mercenary army that the original poster provided, and every one of those entries for Kroot, in every squad, Headhunters, Stalkers, is A1 as well! LOL! What's more, I can find no reference to "shaper squads" or "eviscerators" in the list, either. It makes me wonder how strict you guys really are?!?

wait, I found the eviscerator... it's in the list, but no description other than points cost and a descriptor in parenthesis (like a power fist but with 2D6 armor pen) is given. Sorry, I retract that one! : )

Maybe by shaper squad he means shaper council?

I just checked the pdf on the UK site and you're right, it lists any model named "Kroot" as having one attack. However, it does list Eviscerators in the Armoury, and I believe by "shaper squads" he means the 0-1 Shaper Council HQ choice on page "19".

Kroot rifles in the list do "count as having an additional close combat weapon". However, in true GW fashion, this technically no longer means anything, as you must have two close combat weapons in order to receive an extra attack. A Kroot with a Kroot Rifle is given one additional CCW to accompany his previous zero CCWs, iresulting in exactly one CCW. Having said that, we know what they probably meant.

Treat a Kroot with a Kroot Rifle as having two attacks.

How can you get an additional close combat weapon if you don't already have a first one? But, yes, I agree with you that we both know that GW means that you treat a Kroot with Kroot rifle as having the profile A 1 + 1, the "+ 1" coming from the rifle. LOL... silly, nit picky little detail, huh? Did we ever establish where the A 2 came from, from the original post?

OK, this is going to sound even more nit-picky than what we were just talking about, but I think I've figured out where GW is coming from in their logic of the Kroot rifle with +1 attack. Bear with me! : ) I THINK what they mean by this (and this is a stretch, for sure) is that in the wargear list descriptions in the UK pdf, it describes the Kroot Rifle as a two-handed weapon (p. 18- middle of page). So, if you think of the Kroot Rifle as a two-handed weapon with a special rule (kinda like how power weapons' specail rule is "ignore armor saves"), then the extra attack works to give it a second attack. The original two-handed weapon (the rifle) acts as close combat weapon number 1. It is, after all, in the model's hand. Because of the special rule (counts as having an additional close combat weapon), this confers the second, additional attack to the weapon-bearing model, therefore 2 ccw's. There is a common variation of this situation in which a two-handed weapon is commonly used with a close combat weapon--the ubiquitous storm bolter and powerfist or power sword. The nice thing about the Kroot rifle, then, is that it does count as both a rapid fire two-handed weapon while firing AND counts as a sort-of pistol-ccw combination in melee. Of course, this KINDA off-sets: the trade-off now is that all your assault-oriented Kroot are armed with rapid-fire weapons! LOL!!! Ah well, nothing's perfect, right?

 The original two-handed weapon (the rifle) acts as close combat weapon number 1. It is, after all, in the model's hand. Because of the special rule (counts as having an additional close combat weapon), this confers the second, additional attack to the weapon-bearing model, therefore 2 ccw's.

 

The problem with that concept is that in 4th edition, you get no bonus for having two close combat weapons.

You get +1 Attack for having two single-handed weapons.


So for GW to have written the Kroot rifle's rules properly it would have to say that the Kroot rifle counts as two single-handed weapons in close combat.

But again, I think very few people will actually try to gripe about this in actual gameplay.

There are so few people that play kroot mercs, that it is not a huge issue.

Kroot have 1 attack.  their gun gives them +1 attack as per its special rules.

Therefor, kroot effectively have 2 attacks.  Now the real question is.. what happens if you come across wych weapons which dont allow you to use an additional hand weapon?

-Legacy40k

I totally agree with both of these previous posts, particularly the King of Zoats (LOL!). Incidentally, two of my 6 40K armies are Dark Eldar, one of which (no pun intended) is a Wyche Kult. My interpretation of what would happen if Wyches charged or were charged by Kroot is that, in the case of the Wyches charging the Carnivore squad, the Kroot would lose the extra attack bonus, reducing them to A 1 each (can't go below 1 anyways). If Hounds are in the squad they would be completely unaffected by the Wyche's special weapons. On the other hand, if the Kroot charged the Wyches (unlikely) then the Kroot would still lose the additional attack, but would retain the +1 A from charging. Truly, though, if the Kroot are that close to a Wyche Kult, it would utter stupidity to charge at them, because of the Inv. save Wyches get in close combat (4+) as opposed to the tissue-paper they call armor that they use against shooting (6+). Furthermore, a rapid-firing Carnivore squad within 12" would get a crapload of AP 6 shots against the wyches. LOL! Anyways, that's what I'm pretty sure would happen.

Banger