Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Sniper & Marker Drones both have Jetpacks, but the weapons they carry are heavy weapons, obviously they can't move in the movement phase and then shoot but can they move and shoot in the assault phase? The jetpack special rules mentions Rapid Fire weapons but not Heavy.

Its one of those annoying things there is no real answer for.

The problem comes because Tau, unlike every other army don't use the assault phase to charge, but rather to move away. All the rules for assaulting specifically refer to charging, for example "An infantry unit that fired twice.....or remained stationary to fire heavy weapons may not charge at all in the assault phase."

Now, aslong as you have the ability to do something other than charge in the assault phase (which the Tau jetpacks allow) you are, by the rules at least...free to move.

Logically, after you've fired the heavy weapon, you don't need to stand still, it doesn't increase your chance of hitting. So you should in all respects be allowed to move (at least if you have a jetpack helping you....infantry would be at the disadvantage of having to lug around a launcher/cannon etc)

Even the jetpack rules offer no help. In one paragraph it states that a unit is "allowed to move 6" in the assault phase even if they don't assault" (aka charge). But the next paragraph says  "they are also allowed to charge after rapid firing".

As you can see, its a mess. For me, Jetpack units firing heavy weapons must remain still in the movement phase, but are free to move in the assault phase once the weapon is fired.

 

Just remember....sniper drones are classed as infantry due to their spotter, so they will be stationary. Marker drones also adopt the unit type of their owner. Unless you take them with jetpack models, the issue isn't relevant.

Most likely the snipe drones will not be able to move in the assault phase as their spotter does not have jet pack ability. Then only marker drones attached to other units that have jet packs will be able to move as firewarriors don't have the ability either.

Posted By Jayden63 on 04/14/2006 11:53 PM

Legacy, Having to remain stationary to fire them is not the same as firing them then moving.

Stealth suits with marker drones stand still in movement phase.
They fire markerlights in shooting phase.
They move in the assault phase.

They all remained stationary, then fired just as the rules dictate. The key issue here is that the Jetpack allows a unit to move AFTER firing.

To fire a heavy weapon, a unit must remain stationary the entire turn unless they are a stabile platform (bikes, monsterous creatures, Eldar Grav Platforms to name a few)  Suits are only half this, they get the benefit for rapid fire weapons, but not heavy.  A space marine devestator unit can not charge in the same turn as they have fired their heavy weapons for this very reason.  You must stay stationary the entire turn to fire a heavy weapon.

Jet Packs allow a unit to make an assault move without declaring a target, however, there must be nothing else prohibiting them from making an assault move.  This is why units that deep strike may not make a move in the assault phase, as deep striking units are required to stay stationary the entire turn.

I'm curious.. what makes you think a marker drone may fire a markerlight then move afterwards?  Markerlights are a heavy weapon after all.

-Legacy40k

Heavy Weapons (weapon types) - "Infantry units that fire heavy weapons in the shooting phase may not charge into close combat in the assault phase".

Specifically uses the word charge.


Declare Charges (shooting and assaulting) - "An infantry unit that...remained stationary to fire heavy weapons may not charge at all in the assault phase".

Once again specifically refering to charges.

Unit rules (bikes and jetbikes (shooting phase) - "In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

Again the rule specifically relates to charging into close combat.

Jump infantry (jetpacks) - "...but are allowed to move 6" in the assault phase even if they don't assault."

Note how this is not refered to as a charge but as moving.

While yes, the heavy weapons section notes that a unit "can either fire or move, but not both" if you take the entire paragraph its clear that its written in gaming terms (move, shoot, assault) as it continues to detail what a heav weapon that is fired can do in assault after.

I'm not disagreeing with you, mearly pointing out because of the Tau's unique jetpack rules, the wording of the rules concerning heavy weapons and assault are inadequate and can be argued either way. They are written from an "infantry can only charge into combat during the assault phase and do nothing else" imperial perspective and totally ignore the Tau. I'd use logic and say once you fire a laser beam designator, and then turn it off, you are free to move again, well when a unit using it has the ability to move in the assault phase rather than charging.

 

All it would have needed was "Any infatry unit firing heavy weapons in the shooting phase cannot make any move in the assault phase of any sort."

All it would have needed was "Any infatry unit firing heavy weapons in the shooting phase cannot make any move in the assault phase of any sort."

There is no need. The heavy weapon rules on page 29 say: "If an Inantry unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both."

Movement in that passage (by definition) is not limited just to the movement phase. Since drones do not have a rule that allows them to move and fire heavy weapons, if they move on a turn their unit fires a heavy weapon they have broken the rules.

There is no ambiguity.

Edit: For completeness sake, it behooves me to mention that the passage also doesn't specify any length of time either, so by RAW it could be argued that a unit that moves at any point during the game may not fire a heavy weapon. This conclusion is obviously absurd and unplayable, but I figured I'd type it out before someone else chimed in with it.

 

I agree.  The fact the they must "remain" stationary, suggests that they may not move after firing a heavy weapon.

It is sad that you had to edit and point that out.. so very sad.

-Legacy40k

I like the look of the drone snipers, but GW making them snipers and not fire warriors was just dumb.

I know this isnt a meodelling question, but people could seriously save a few bucks if RAW is actually correct by modelling a few fire warriors to be snipers and giving the controller a pair of goggles.

I think that the rulebook doesnt take into account abnormal movement in the movement phase, but I agree, according to RAW, I would play it as they could not move at all if they shoot heavy class weapons.

Legacy40k is correct

Check the codex page 31.  Sniper drones don't have jetpacks.  Other drones do only when their owner does and Gun Drones do on their own.  So Marker Drones are the only one that have a problem. 

I wonder why it is so hard to get, that the Sniper Drone Team's unit type is INFANTRY...

There is no need. The heavy weapon rules on page 29 say: "If an Inantry unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both."

And you are taking a single sentance out of context. Look at the whole paragraph....it mentions moving, shooting and assaulting. Clearly written from a game perspective. That "move or shoot but not both" sentance must then be applied to the context....movement and shooting phases. The only wording applicable to assault moves (which is what i am saying) is right at the end, and specifically mentions charging.

Hence the problem as Marker drones attached to jet infantry are not required to charge, but instead may move again.

Posted By Mr_Middle_Way on 04/17/2006 11:52 AM

There is no need. The heavy weapon rules on page 29 say: "If an Inantry unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both."

And you are taking a single sentance out of context. Look at the whole paragraph....it mentions moving, shooting and assaulting. Clearly written from a game perspective. That "move or shoot but not both" sentance must then be applied to the context....movement and shooting phases. The only wording applicable to assault moves (which is what i am saying) is right at the end, and specifically mentions charging.

Hence the problem as Marker drones attached to jet infantry are not required to charge, but instead may move again.

Or they just figured that because an assault was a movement (it does follow restrictions for movement such as terrain after all) that they did not need to mention it specifically in the assault phase.

-Legacy40k