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Ah Daemons... easily one of the currently most hated armies right now, partly because of potentially utterly owning the Psychic phase, or else due to the sheer stupidity of the plainly obnoxious re-rolled 2++ save unit that will never freaking die - EVER!
But also equally in part to that very infamous one summer where it seemed like everyone and their mother got touched in their no-no spot by a big mean DoC player!

Still, while the current book is pretty damn solid, both internally and externally, (note: assuming one's intention isn't to just break the game!), there are a few things could do with some polishing, as well as some other very glaring rules that need to be toned down!
Hence, a few suggestions:

A Daemon's invulnerable save can never be improved beyond 3+ by any means.

***Reasoning: There is nothing inherently wrong with the Daemon of Tzeentch rule, or the Grimoire of True Names and/or other augment abilities. All that's need to stop unkillable unit/model shenanigans is to simply put a cap on how high their saves can go.


Daemon of Khorne: Hatred: Daemons of Slaanesh, all models gain the Adamantium Will & Furious Charge USR's.
Collar of Khorne changes to giving the model +2 to their invuln save vs. any wounds caused by Psychic Powers and Force Weapons.

***Reasoning: Khorne is now more apt at defending against psychic attacks as fits with his background, though non-targeted powers are still a big threat to them. Hounds, similar to their role in Fantasy, become a premier unit at hunting down those cowards who would hide behind magical trickery!

Blade of Blood becomes Khorne's default '0' option on the Lesser Rewards table, and changes to:
- S user/ap3. Melee, *Bloodlust, Specialist Weapon, *Colossal.
*Bloodlust = the wielder may make an additional attack for each unsaved wound he inflicts in combat. These additional attacks may not generate further additional attacks.
*Colossal = the wielder always makes Pile In moves and strikes at I1 regardless of any other modifiers or special rules.

Axe of Khorne becomes Khorne's default '0' option on the Greater Rewards table, and gains the 'Unwieldy' rule.

***Reasoning: The Axe of Khorne is frankly just far too stupidly godly right now... 10pts for at-initiative ap2 and freaking Killing Blow is just pure insanity - why the hell would you NOT take this thing!? Adding in the Unwieldy rule means it's still a good buy for MC's, but now Heralds and unit champs especially are more vulnerable, and you're far less likely to have a 15pts upgrade character solo'ing 200+ point enemy MC's or IC's with ease.
On the other hand, the Blade of Blood is overcosted gak. Make it the more likely choice for the lower end characters - even though they still go last with it, Heralds can make great use of it by simply using a unit champ to soak-up any challenges. MC's can potentially really go to town with it, but opponents will always get the majority of their swings in first.

Mutating Warpblade becomes Tzeentch's default '0' option on the Lesser Rewards table.
Staff of Change becomes Tzeentch's default '0' option of the Greater Rewards table.

***Reasoning: just a basic swap to dial back the sheer obnoxiousness of the Lord of Change. Right now he's frankly on God-mode. Give him his +2S staff for that magical S8/ap2 in combat plus a pair of Greater Rewards for outstanding protection, then add on 3 Divination powers for better than 60% odds at Precognition and laugh...
Making the Staff the more expensive option means that the LoC will only get 1 protective boost, instead of being a near invincible beatstick. Besides, this guy is supposed to be a master of magic - not a ridiculously better Bloodthirster!


Daemons of Tzeentch must select their Psychic powers from the lores of Tzeentch, Pyromancy, Divination and/or Malefic.
Daemons of Slaanesh must select their Psychic powers from the lores of Slaanesh, Telepathy and/or Malefic.
Daemons of Nurgle must select their Psychic powers from the lores of Nurgle, Biomancy, and/or Malefic

Heralds of Slaanesh & Nurgle may purchase Psychic Mastery Lv1
Heralds of Tzeentch begin as Lv1 Psykers, may purchase Mastery Lv2.

***Reasoning: Princes are now properly locked into the same lores as the rest of the characters of their respective Gods. Heralds are proper supporters, with Tzeentch still being more adept than the other Gods, as befits the God of Magic's servants. This makes it much harder for any Daemon army to attempt Invis spamming, as only Fateweaver, Be'lakor & Slaanesh can now potentially bring it. (with only Be'lakor guaranteeing it)
Essentially, if you want a specific power, then you're going to require a specific God to get it!

The cheapest WC farmers, (namely Tzheralds), are now more sane and on the same level as most other Psykers in the game. Lv3 is left to the 'big guys'.


Pink Horrors of Tzeentch: Brotherhood of Psykers, Magic Made Manifest.
Always know the following powers: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Flame Breath.
Magic made Manifest: Units of Pink Horrors are a Mastery Lv1 Psyker. However, when determining Deny the Witch rolls, treat the unit as the following; 1-9 models = Lv1, 10-15 = Lv2, 16+ = Lv3.

***Reasoning: The biggest source of mass WC generation on the cheap is no more. However, larger units maintain their relevance as their powers will be harder to stop, while also being able to defend much better against enemy powers.


As well, all 3 of the God specific lores get fully fleshed out into a proper 6 spells + Primaris. Both Daemons & CSM's would then use the same spell lists, similar to how things work in Fantasy with Daemons & Warriors of Chaos.

Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch WC1-3
Witchfire S5/ap4/Assault 2D6+2 -OR- S4/ap4/Assault 3D6+3 -OR- S3/ap4/Assault 4D6+4

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1
24"/Malediction.
Target unit must use the lowest Ld value in the unit for all moral, pinning & leadership tests.

2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1
Witchfire Template/SD6/ap4/Assault 1 Torrent

3. Bolt of Change WC1
24"/Beam SD6+4/ap1/Assault 1

4. Glean Magic WC2
18"/Malediction.
Select a single enemy psyker within range. Both the caster & target roll a D6 + Ld. If the caster's roll is higher, the target immediately suffers a single S3 hit with no armour or cover saves and forgets a randomly determined psychic power. The caster may then attempt to use this power once, after which, the stolen power is destroyed.

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2
Nova/9"/SD3+1/ap5/Assault 2D6

6. Infernal Gateway WC2
18"/Witchfire/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1 Blast
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining strength, the shot counts as S10 and uses the Large Blast template.


Lore of Slaanesh:
Primaris: Lash of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Beam S5/ap-/Rending, Ignores Cover

1. Acquiescence WC1
24"/Malediction
Target unit much pass a Ld test each time it wishes to move, shoot, fire Overwatch or assault. If the test is failed, the action is lost. Vehicles count as Ld10.

2. Pavane of Slaanesh WC1
18"/Focused Witchfire.
The target model must pass a Ld test on its own Leadership. If the test is failed, the model suffers a single wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If a unit suffers any wounds, it must immediately take a Pinning test.

3. Hysterical Frenzy WC2
18"/Blessing OR 18"/Malediction
The target unit gains the Rage & Furious Charge USR's and *must* attempt to assault if an enemy unit is within range at the beginning of their Assault phase. In addition, each time the target unit takes any actions, (moving, shooting, assault, etc...), it immediately suffers D6 S4 hits with the Rending rule due to their uncontrolled frenzy.

4. Slicing Shards WC2
24"/Witchfire/*special
The target unit immediately suffers D6/S4/ap- hits with the Rending rule. The unit must then immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit suffers an additional D6/S4 Rending hits. Keep taking Toughness tests until the unit passes or is destroyed.

5. Phantasmagoria WC1
24"/Malediction
The target unit must roll an additional D6 whenever taking any form of Ld test, and discard the lowest roll from the result.

6. Cacophonic Choir WC2
6"/Nova *special
All units within range of the power immediately take a Ld test. For every point the test is failed by, the unit suffers a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Any unit suffering at least one wound must immediately test for Pinning and will strike at -5I during the next Assault phase.


Lore of Nurgle:
Primaris: Stream of Corruption WC1
Witchfire Template/*Special
All models touched by the template must immediately pass a Toughness test, or suffer 1 wound with no armour saves allowed. Models with the Daemon of Nurgle or Mark of Nurgle are immune - they find it entirely refreshing!

1. Miasma of Pestilence WC1
12"/Blessing
Enemy units in base contact with the target unit reduce their WS & Initiative by -1 (to a minimum of 1).

2. Blades of Putrification WC2
6"/Blessing
The target unit's close combat attacks gain the Poisoned(4+) special rule. If the target unit already has the Poisoned(4+) special rule, then their Poisoned attacks are improved by +1. (ie: Poisoned(4+) becomes Poisoned(3+))

3. Curse of the Leper WC2
12" Blessing OR 12" Malediction
If cast on a friendly unit, Curse of the Leper is a Blessing that increases the target's Toughness by +1. If cast on an enemy unit, Curse of the Leper is a Malediction which reduces the target's Toughness by -1. This can effect the target's Instant Death threshold.

4. Rancid Visitations WC2
18"/Foused Witchfire/*Special
The target must immediately pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed. If this test is failed, the target unit must immediately take another Toughness test. Keep taking Toughness tests until the target unit passes, or else is destroyed.

5. Fleshy Abundance WC2
12"/Blessing
The target unit gains the Feel No Pain(5+) rule. If the target already has Feel No Pain, then their save is improved by +1 to a maximum of 3+

6. Plague Wind WC3
7"/Nova/*Special
All units within range must immediately take D6 Toughness tests. Any models that fail will suffer an automatic wound with no Armour or Cover saves allowed.

I'm all for getting rid of the 2++ rerollable save, as nothing like that should exist in this game.

I'll agree that rerollable 2++ should not be in the game.

As for the rest of that, one way of toning down the Chaos Daemons would be to make the Grey Knights' special rules against Daemons work better. After all, in the lore the Daemons literally recoil from the Grey Knights' gaze. It would be fluff appropriate in the game if Chaos Daemons players dreaded coming up against Grey Knights. But by the same token, if you go by the fluff, just about every other faction should dread going up against Chaos Daemons.

If the Codexes were balanced in accordance with their fluff, you'd have the Grey Knights, Chaos Daemons, and Necrons as the A-list armies, with just about everyone else being B-list, as 40k really shouldn't have a C-list army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I can't comment much on most of the specifics of your suggestion because I haven't studied the Chaos Daemons Codex for myself.)

 Bill1138 wrote:
I'll agree that rerollable 2++ should not be in the game.

As for the rest of that, one way of toning down the Chaos Daemons would be to make the Grey Knights' special rules against Daemons work better. After all, in the lore the Daemons literally recoil from the Grey Knights' gaze. It would be fluff appropriate in the game if Chaos Daemons players dreaded coming up against Grey Knights. But by the same token, if you go by the fluff, just about every other faction should dread going up against Chaos Daemons.

If the Codexes were balanced in accordance with their fluff, you'd have the Grey Knights, Chaos Daemons, and Necrons as the A-list armies, with just about everyone else being B-list, as 40k really shouldn't have a C-list army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I can't comment much on most of the specifics of your suggestion because I haven't studied the Chaos Daemons Codex for myself.)

Oh gods no! Please, 2+ years of being auto-nuked to the point I may as well have left all my models in their case by GK's was more than enough...
The game is bad enough without turning it into pure Yu-gi-oh!hammer of codices A/B/C curbstomp codices 'everyone else', with codex 'A' hard countering codex 'C', and codex 'B' being nearly immune to codex 'A', because... "reasons."

We don't need army tiers. What we need is for the few problem codices, (of which Daemons is definitely one due to re-rolled 2++ & cheap WC spamming), to have their most obnoxious tricks removed and/or dialed down to the same level of the other 7th ed books, along with Necrons needing their Decurion dialed back a wee bit.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
I'll agree that rerollable 2++ should not be in the game.

As for the rest of that, one way of toning down the Chaos Daemons would be to make the Grey Knights' special rules against Daemons work better. After all, in the lore the Daemons literally recoil from the Grey Knights' gaze. It would be fluff appropriate in the game if Chaos Daemons players dreaded coming up against Grey Knights. But by the same token, if you go by the fluff, just about every other faction should dread going up against Chaos Daemons.

If the Codexes were balanced in accordance with their fluff, you'd have the Grey Knights, Chaos Daemons, and Necrons as the A-list armies, with just about everyone else being B-list, as 40k really shouldn't have a C-list army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I can't comment much on most of the specifics of your suggestion because I haven't studied the Chaos Daemons Codex for myself.)

Oh gods no! Please, 2+ years of being auto-nuked to the point I may as well have left all my models in their case by GK's was more than enough...
The game is bad enough without turning it into pure Yu-gi-oh!hammer of codices A/B/C curbstomp codices 'everyone else', with codex 'A' hard countering codex 'C', and codex 'B' being nearly immune to codex 'A', because... "reasons."

We don't need army tiers. What we need is for the few problem codices, (of which Daemons is definitely one due to re-rolled 2++ & cheap WC spamming), to have their most obnoxious tricks removed and/or dialed down to the same level of the other 7th ed books, along with Necrons needing their Decurion dialed back a wee bit.

Ideally, all Codexes would be equally viable, but as it currently stands a pure Grey Knights army is bottom tier, and that makes no sense. Chaos Daemons are getting new releases, that give extra rules for each Chaos god, but the Grey Knights are left with half of one very small codex.

I can't chime in on the specifics of changing the balance of power within the Chaos Daemons Codex, because I'm not familiar enough with their rules. All I'm saying is that in accordance with the Fluff, if any one army were to be better at fighting Daemons than the others, it would have to be the Grey Knights. Their Primarch is the Emperor and they were given the best and rarest of what the Imperium had to offer for the expressed purpose of fighting Daemons.

 Bill1138 wrote:

Ideally, all Codexes would be equally viable, but as it currently stands a pure Grey Knights army is bottom tier, and that makes no sense. Chaos Daemons are getting new releases, that give extra rules for each Chaos god, but the Grey Knights are left with half of one very small codex.

Grey Knights are hardly bottom tier... Yes, you can't really play 100% "Competitive Tournament" lists out of just the codex itself without falling into the 2-3x Dreadknights + Draigo/Tiggy Centstar, but then, outside of the new Decurion Necrons and potentially Eldar, no one in the entire game is any different in this regard.

And no, Chaos Daemons are not getting new rules "for each god..."
We got 3 WD dataslates for the new Bloodthirster, one of which is simply a carbon copy of the current Bloodthirster entry - just with a fancy new name. And really, people are losing their gak for no reason over the Str.D variant... He's perpetual I1 - that's a huge deal for him! Without outside help (ie: Grimoire/Invis/Cursed Earth) he's prone to getting chopped down before he can swing.
If he lives to swing, then hell yeah, it's gonna hurt! But the Daemon player needs to be very careful in picking their combats for him, and in the end, you're risking a 300pts model that can only ever do damage in close combat, and brings none of the Psychic supports the other three can gain.
He's actually decently balanced.

And we have no idea when the other Greaters are coming, or even IF they're coming at all... last time we had to wait over 4 freaking years for GW to release all 4 of them!

 Bill1138 wrote:
I can't chime in on the specifics of changing the balance of power within the Chaos Daemons Codex, because I'm not familiar enough with their rules. All I'm saying is that in accordance with the Fluff, if any one army were to be better at fighting Daemons than the others, it would have to be the Grey Knights. Their Primarch is the Emperor and they were given the best and rarest of what the Imperium had to offer for the expressed purpose of fighting Daemons.

And you have your fluffy wish, as Grey Knights [I]arep/I] much better at fighting Daemons than any other Imperial army... you've got army-wide Force weapons (including in the Shooting phase now), mastery of Santic, Daemonbane, Prefered Enemy: Daemons, high WC count...

What more do you need?