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Okay, a lot of hate has been thrown at the Eldar and the Necrons for their past two codexes. However, in a sense, GW delivered exactly what we were asking for - powerful ways to bring fluffy lists to the table that feel incredibly like what the fluff says they are. If we're lucky, all the codexes are going to go this way! So, here's a space to talk about really re-vamping those psychos that follow dark and cruel gods. These are honest suggestions (no Cultists with D-weapons here!), but a bunch will be powerful.

Each new Codex has been built around a concept. The Necrons are about survivability. Nothing in the game can survive as well as the Necrons can. They're also about high-technology negating buffs. That's why you have specific things that are extremely good at their task (Praetorians, Necron bikes ignoring cover, and upgrades to make Denying the Witch a lot easier). Nothing in the codex is especially good at killing (again, outside specific units), but since they don't die themselves, the marginally-good combat abilities hit hard turn after turn. The Eldar, it seems, are all about having more D-weapons, fantastic manoeuvrability, and don't have a ton in the way of survivability. They're also about having very strong psychic-based buffs. Again, survivability isn't an issue when your opponent can't hit you either because you're gone or they're dead.

This displays that there's a common thought-process; "They're better than anyone at this, really good at this, but don't have a lot of this. Of course, if you successfully use their strengths, then their weakness really isn't a big deal."

Chaos Space Marines Concept:
The Chaos Space Marines are the best at making their opponents weaker, and are also about making themselves stronger either by being gifted by the gods or by summoning additional forces. Nothing in the codex (except for a few specific units) is able to out-manoeuvre their opponents, but when your opponent is so weak they can barely lift a sword, you don't really have to out-manoeuvre them.

Army-Wide Special Rules:
Gifts of Chaos - Whenever an enemy unit is destroyed by a unit in this detachment/formation's shooting or close combat attack, roll on the Gift of Chaos table. A unit with a Mark of Chaos may choose to automatically gain the benefit of their god's gift (units with multiple Marks of Chaos, such as Abaddon, gain each gift associated with whichever Marks they have).

Gifts of Chaos: D6+3
4 - Ignored. The unit receives no bonus.
5 - Insane Courage. The unit is Fearless until the end of your next turn. Units that are already Fearless may choose to pass or fail leadership tests they would otherwise be called upon to make instead.
6 - Gifted by Slannesh. Until the end of your next turn this unit can always fire Overwatch (even if not normally able to do so, such as by being a vehicle, or even if they're already fired overwatch this turn). Additionally, these shots are made at BS2 instead of BS1.
7 - Gifted by Nurgle. Until the end of your next turn, this unit gains Feel No Pain until end of turn. If the unit already has Feel No Pain, they add 1 to their Feel No Pain rolls. Vehicles instead ignore glancing or penetrating hits on a roll of 5+ after all saves have been made.
8 - Gifted by Khorne. Return all models in this unit to their full amount of wounds or hull points. This unit immediately declares and makes a charge move if possible towards the nearest enemy unit (overwatch may be fired as normal against this charge).
9 - Gifted by Tzeentch. Until the end of your next turn, this unit gains the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and generates a power from the Tzeentch Psychic Discipline (does not grant the Primaris power). A Psyker gains an additional Mastery Level instead, and may instead roll on any table they have access to.

Veterans of the Long War - A unit with this special rule gains +1 to their Ld value, and automatically passes Fear, Blind, and Strikedown tests.

Mark of Slannesh: Units making a ranged or close combat attack against a unit with this Mark have their WS and BS reduced by 1 until the end. A unit locked in close combat with a unit with the Mark of Slannesh have their Initiative reduced by 1. (Not cumulative with other Marks of Slannesh)
Mark of Nurgle: Units hit by a ranged or close combat attack made by a unit with this Mark have their Strength and Toughness value reduced by 1 until end of turn. (Not cumulative with other Marks of Nurgle)
Mark of Khorne: Units making a ranged or close combat attack against a unit with this Mark hit their own with that attack on a to-hit roll of 1. Blast weapons that roll double 1's for scatter distance centre the blast marker over a randomly selected model in their own unit. (Not cumulative with other Marks of Khorne)
Mark of Tzeentch: Units hit by a ranged or close combat attack made by a unit with this Mark have a -1 modifier to all their saves until end of turn. (Not cumulative with other Marks of Tzeentch)

Ruination Legion
Here's the breakdown for the Chaos Space Marine forces in a way that demonstrates the "classic" fluffy army of many maniacs supported by powerful individuals

1+ Traitors of Chaos
0-1 Warmaster's Retinue
0-3 Daemon Engines

1-10 Auxiliary Formations:
Arch-Heretic's Warband
Arch-Traitor's Warband
Arch-Nemesis' Warband
Arch-Ruinator's Warband
Arch-Blasphemer's Warband
Obliterator Cult
Slannesh Cult
Nurgle Cult
Khorne Cult
Tzeentch Cult



That's all I got for now!

I am sorry, but it is impossible for me to be hopeful, as a CSM player. I have to play this game for fun, accepting that I am going to be at some weird disadvantage no matter what. With the introduction of Necrons and Eldar, there is very little if anything CSM can do to those armies. We do not have the options, nor will we ever. If GW couldn't balance out our base troops with the loyalist, how the hell are they going to give us any treatment similar to that of Eldar? This game is so fething stupid in that regard. if we get a new codex, we can expect that Defilers will be more expensive, all of our troops and elites will be the same, and we will get one new unit that is kind of cool but really pointless.

Play CSM because you like the models, because that is all that will ever be cool about CSM.

I like this idea. I just really wish the general power creep would stop. On topic:

I'm not sure about having each god represented in the D6 table. If this is about fluff, it makes no sense for Tzeentch to bless a unit of Plague marines. Perhaps reducing it to a D3 table with a single outcome for blessings would make more sense - the blessing effect would be specific to the unit's mark (or lack thereof). Maybe it can be a different D6 table:

1: nothing
2-3: fearless/healing/some generic low level bonus for a turn
4-6: blessing

You should make it have 5 separate tables, with d6 results each. IF the champion has no mark, roll on one table. IF he ha a mark, roll on the god-specific table. That would add to the fluff a bit more, in my opinion.

I started writing up a whole table, but it's a lot of complicated rules for something that I feel should be simple - hence why it's a single table. (Actually, the tables included a modifier, like D6+1 for Nurgle's table, so you could get each God's sacred number). Note, a unit with a Mark can always just choose to go with their god's gift. And while it may not always make sense for one god to gift another god's followers, there's lots of times when the Chaos gods work together, at least temporarily, and they are nothing if not fickle.

What do you think of the idea of Chaos Space Marines being the Faction of Debuffs?

Now I'm thinking about sacred numbers... so I guess I'll rewrite the gifts again and include something about that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, how's this for Gift Tables:

Gifts of Chaos:
Whenever a unit from this detachment/formation destroys an enemy unit with a ranged or close combat attack, roll on the Gifts of Chaos Undivided Table to give that unit a Gift of Chaos. If the unit has a Mark of Chaos, roll on the table corresponding to that god's mark.

Sacred Numbers:
If a unit would roll for a Gift of Chaos and has a number of models in it equal to their god's sacred number, they may choose their Gift of Chaos instead of rolling for it.

UNDIVIDED: D3
1 - Ignored.
2 - Clarity of the Insane. Gain Fearless until the end of your next turn. Units that are already Fearless may choose to pass or fail leadership tests they would otherwise be called upon to make instead.
3 - Unpredictable Tactics. Until the end of your next turn, enemies making attacks against this unit re-roll all to-hit, to-wound, and armour penentration rolls of 6.

SLAANESH: D3
1 - Ignored.
2 - The Masque's Vision. Until the end of your next turn this unit can always fire Overwatch (even if not normally able to do so, such as by being a vehicle, or even if they're already fired overwatch this turn). Additionally, these shots are made at BS2 instead of BS1.
3 - Slaanesh's Visage. Until the end of your next turn, your Mark of Slannesh further reduces WS, BS, and Initiative by an additional 1.

NURGLE: D3
1 - Nurgle's Rot. Each other unit (friend or foe!) within 6" of this unit takes D6 S2 (Poisoned 4+) AP - hits.
2 - Epidemius' Blight. Each unit (friend or foe!) within 12" of this unit without the Mark of Nurgle takes D6 S4 (Poisoned 4+) AP 5 hits.
3 - Nurgle's Wind. Center a Large Blast over an enemy model within 18" of this unit. Each model underneath the blast suffers a S6 (Fleshbane) AP4 hit.

KHORNE: D3
1 - Ignored.
2 - Skulltaker's Rage. Each enemy unit not locked in combat within 12" of this unit must pass a Leadership test or else immediately declare and make a charge move if possible towards this unit (overwatch may be fired as normal against this charge).
3 - Khorne's Wrath.. If not locked in combat, this unit immediately declares and makes a charge move if possible towards the nearest enemy unit (overwatch may be fired as normal against this charge).

TZEENTCH: D3
1 - Gift of Mutation. Randomly select a model in this unit. That model suffers a S4 hit with no AP. Roll on this table again.
2 - Fateweaver's Twist. Until the end of your next turn, ranged and close combat attacks made against this unit have the Gets Hot! special rule.
3 - Tzeentch's Eye. Until the end of your next turn, this unit gains the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and generates a power from the Tzeentch Psychic Discipline (does not grant the Primaris power). A Psyker gains an additional Mastery Level instead, and may instead roll on any table they have access to.


I'm not 100% sold on these because it requires a lot more record-keeping. A single table doesn't require as much record-keeping, as you can put down a "Slannesh token" next to a squad to show that it's been gifted by Slannesh.

Remove as much randomness from Chaos as possible.
Keep in mind they may remove cult troops.

Make Legion tactics like 30k.

or make simple modification.

Iron Warriors=Havocs become troops or allow option for basic marines to carry 4 hvy weapons
Nightlord=Warp Talons becomes troops or allow basic marines to get jump packs
Crimson slaughter continue to make Possessed as troops
Black Legion continue to make Chosen as troops
??? legion = terminator as troops
Basic no name Undivided= make basic marines real cheap.

I hope GW moves away from the belief that all their players enjoy having random stuff that kills their units. Boon of Mutation is just one thing.. To say nothing of the actual chart where you can become a spawn. Why does an army-wide benefit have to have bad stuff? Because it's free?

On the current subject, why does the Tzeentch table have something that hurts you when the other Gods' tables do not? Why would Thousand Sons be affected by Mutation when they can't be mutated?

Just thoughts to think about.

I'm not saying that Tzeentch (or Chaos in general) needs OP stuff when you run the marines, but that there must be some level of control for actually taking abilities that will help you fight and not just give wins to your opponent in the form of a warlord kill because you took a hit when you should be rewarded.

Regarding a codex revamp, I am not convinced that Legion Tactics is the way to go... or even that GW will attempt them.

Slaanesh and Khorne will ignore their own followers if displeased. Tzeentch and Nurgle, however, take far more interest in their subjects. Nurgle considers harm to be a blessing, so his "1" result can hit anyone. Tzeentch is fickle, so his "1" result possibly hurts the unworthy, but if there's any survivors, they'll be more powerful than before - you'll note that you roll on the table again, making it impossible to not score a "2" or "3" result. This extra consistency is worth the potential of taking some additional harm.

I welcome randomness in Chaos, like I do with Orks. The thing about randomness though is that it needs to add more than the equivalent non-random option on average to make up for being unreliable.

Of the stuff posted here, there are only two I dislike - Slaneesh's "always fire overwatch and at BS2" as this is way too niche, and wouldn't work for Slaneesh daemons which should get a similar rule, and the special blessings if you have the god's number, which should be rather potent considering how difficult that would be to achieve.

A little off topic, but I can't help but wonder, what would the Orks "army concept" sentance look like?

"The Orks are a faction of mooks. They are the best at putting bodies on the table and taking them off again. They are also good at removing their own models via Mob Rule, just in case you weren't killing enough Orks yourself. They are not very good at fighting, or shooting."

Good point on Slaanesh! I was thinking "Noise Marines" and definitely should've been considering the Daemonettes.

As for Orks, an honest army concept would be:

"The Orks can put down more models on the table than any other 40k army, gaining additional benefits based on the size of their units and squads. They're good at raw damage output, but have very little that makes their own attacks more reliable or survivable. However, when you have three of every model your opponent would only have one of, it doesn't really matter."

I'd have the Orks gain bonuses based on army and unit sizes , and give them the access to the most high-strength, poor AP weapons in the game. Perhaps add a special rule for Orks that they may remove casualties from anywhere in the squad to allow Ork mobz to not be "pushed back" as easily. I've played far too many games with my Orks where I would move 8-12" forward, then end up having to regain 3-5" distance in lost models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe for Slaanesh;

"The Masque's Glare; Enemy units moving within 12" of a model from this unit subtract 2 from the distance they can move."

Means enemies have a harder time getting away from them, and a unit with Mark of Slaanesh in difficult terrain is extremely difficult to charge.

"Tzeentch is fickle" or "Chaos is fickle" is a cop-out from good rules design, because they don't know what to do with Tzeentch other than randomness. It's not a good thing imo.

 Dakkamite wrote:


A little off topic, but I can't help but wonder, what would the Orks "army concept" sentance look like?

"The Orks are a faction of mooks. They are the best at putting bodies on the table and taking them off again. They are also good at removing their own models via Mob Rule, just in case you weren't killing enough Orks yourself. They are not very good at fighting, or shooting."

Have an exalt sir!

 Yarium wrote:
Good point on Slaanesh! I was thinking "Noise Marines" and definitely should've been considering the Daemonettes.

As for Orks, an honest army concept would be:

"The Orks can put down more models on the table than any other 40k army, gaining additional benefits based on the size of their units and squads. They're good at raw damage output, but have very little that makes their own attacks more reliable or survivable. However, when you have three of every model your opponent would only have one of, it doesn't really matter."

I'd have the Orks gain bonuses based on army and unit sizes , and give them the access to the most high-strength, poor AP weapons in the game. Perhaps add a special rule for Orks that they may remove casualties from anywhere in the squad to allow Ork mobz to not be "pushed back" as easily. I've played far too many games with my Orks where I would move 8-12" forward, then end up having to regain 3-5" distance in lost models.

Thats definitely how the Orks should be, but I'm talking about what they are currently. They can outnumber the enemy, but straight up its not enough to compete with the power armies. It doesn't matter if you take 100 Orks if Eldar can shoot 90 of them off of the board in one turn!

Personally I would love more horde based rules, and then clan rules on top of that. This is where GW's principle design strategies - randomness and buy more models - could really have come to shine. Instead we got the 'first dex of an edition' treatment, after two editions of using an ancient dex propped up on a couple of broken units.

Might make my own version of this thread but for Orks so the conversations can run alongside one another without becoming a confusing mess. I love designing rules and luckily I have a few people who are keen on homerules to use them against!

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:


A little off topic, but I can't help but wonder, what would the Orks "army concept" sentance look like?

"The Orks are a faction of mooks. They are the best at putting bodies on the table and taking them off again. They are also good at removing their own models via Mob Rule, just in case you weren't killing enough Orks yourself. They are not very good at fighting, or shooting."

Have an exalt sir!

Thank you, glad to see someone agrees. They really do feel like moronic goons from a disney film...

I hope your Ork topic generates many responses!

In response to the comment about random being bad design, I would disagree. In fact, the whole reason of the wound is to allow the unit to roll again for a more consistent result than the other gods... just at a price (which is oh so Chaos).


Chaos Space Marine Psychic Disciplines:

Slaanesh; d3
Primaris - Mutinous Pride - WC1, witchfire - Each model in the targeted unit makes a close combat attack against its own unit using whichever weapon the caster decides. Units of only 1 model may not be targeted by this attack.
1 - Temptation - WC1, malediction - Whenever the target unit moves in any way, you may move models in the unit up to 3" after their move. You may not move models in close combat out of base-to-base contact this way.
2 - Greed's Lust - WC2, malediction - The target unit must move as far as possible in the movement phase towards the nearest objective marker. If they control an objective marker, they remain stationary. The unit must target upon the nearest enemy unit in the shooting phase if possible.
3 - Heidonous Cacophony - WC3, nova (9") - Each enemy unit within 9" suffers 2d6 S4 AP- hits with the Blind special rule. Each unit hit must pass a Fear test or else fall back. Each unit hit cannot fire Overwatch this turn (models inside transports can't fire Overwatch if their transport is hit).

Nurgle; d3
Primaris - Blighted Ground - WC1, nova - Mark out the area within 6" of the caster. All units without the Mark of Nurgle in this area suffer d6 S4 AP- hits (Poisoned 4+). Leave this area marked as a zone for the rest of the game. Any units entering or moving within this zone are hit by d6 S4 AP- hits. If another Blighted Ground is cast and the marked area overlaps this zone, merge the two zones into a single zone and the nova's attack hits all unit without the Mark of Nurgle in this enlarged zone.
1 - Despair's Fog - WC1, malediction - Target a unit within 24". Models hit by shooting attacks made by this unit have the Shrouded special rule for the duration of the attack.
2 - Curse of Nurglings - WC1, malediction or blessing - Target character within 24". If that character has the Mark of Nurgle, Curse of Nurglings is a blessing that grants +1W, +1A, and the model may reroll a single die, usable on any roll the model is called upon to make. If the target does not have the Mark of Nurgle, Curse of Nurglings is a malediction. That character's wounds are reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1, has -1A, and the model must reroll a single die of an opponent's choice, usable on any roll the model is called upon to make.
3 - Hopelessness - WC3, malediction - Target a unit within 6". That unit's controller loses 1 Victory Point at the end of the game, before determining the winner.

Tzeentch; d3
Primaris - Plans and Machinations - WC1, blessing - Targets the Psyker. The psyker's controller may choose to have any one die rerolled until the start of your next turn. Further, this Psyker harnesses the Warp on a roll of 3+ until the start of your next turn.
1 - Bolt of Change- WC1, beam - 18" beam, S9, AP1, Assault 1.
2 - Waves of Power - WC2, witchfire - Each psyker in the unit may fire a S4 AP- Template.
3 - Bend Reality - WC3, malediction - Targets enemy within 24". You may re-assign that unit's WS, BS, S, T, and Initiative. If the target is a vehicle, you may switch its armour facing values. Lasts until start of your next turn.



Chaos Space Marine Ruination Legion:
Unholy Host:[/u] All units in the Ruination Legion may purchase a Mark of Chaos for free.
[b]Corrupted Idols: At the start of the game, choose a detachment belonging to an opponent. Units in that detachment use the lowest Leadership value in their units rather than the highest when making Leadership tests.

Traitors of Chaos
Composition:
1+ units of Cultists
1-6 units of Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Space Marine Bikers, or Chaos Raptors
1-3 units of Chosen or Chaos Havocs
1-3 Chaos Predators, Chaos Dreadnaughts, and/or Chaos Land Raiders
1 Chaos Sorcerer

Benefit:
Reap Terror, Sow Discord: Units from this formation roll for a Gift of Chaos if they deal at least 25% casualties to an enemy unit during a single phase.

Chaos Marines unhinged, unglued, unscrewed

Random tables every where! Random deployment, random movement, random shooting, random charge and random melee! Even more random warlord traits, psychic powers, and Gifts of Mutation! RANDOM RANDOMNESS! Every model has the crazed special rule and the possessed marine random mutations!!!

RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!

omg... If i hear another suggestion on more random rolling for CSM I will throw the dice in my avatar at you !

Chaos Space Marines are scary bad guys. They worship dark gods and can have more Fear and Soulblaze than any other army! Their special detachment gives them all Fear and Soulblaze but randomly damages their own units. Detachment requires 1+ units of compulsory Possessed.

CSM gets to ignore enemy fearlessness and force a morale check.

god soul blaze is too much work.