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Sauron, while dwelling at Dol Guldur from 1000 - 2063, and then from 2460 - 2941, was know, as I hope we all know, as The Necromancer.

And with what do we associate Necromancy?

Well... The Undead, of course.

Some rules make a distinction between things like Ghouls/Zombies (Freshly Re-animated corpses), and Skeletons (which are really just Zombies/Ghouls that have been around so long that all of the flesh has rotten off their body, and the only thing keeping them going is the agony of the Necromantic Spell that binds their tortured soul to their decaying body (or just the motive force of the spell re-animating the corpse - a soulless automaton.

So. . . Obviously SauronThe Necromancer had an ample supply of dead bodies to choose from to create his armies of undead:

• The Dagorlad and the Dead Marshes (Corpse Candles)
• The Remains at the Disaster at Gladden Fields.
• Later in the Third Age, just prior to The Watchful Peace we had the battles of the Wainriders and Gondor in Western Rhovanion from 1851 to 1944 Third Age.
• After The Watchful Peace, you have the battles involving the Balchoth in 2500 - 2501, along with the Armies of Gondor and the Éotheod between the Limlaith and Anduin in the Field of Celebrant - the Bfalchoth were directly under the Control of Dol Guldur, as well (need to remember that).
• Dead Orcs and Dwarves from Moria (especially after the Wars of the Dwarves and Orcs)

But... Dol Guldur obviously wasn't massing armies of undead for use in major battles. It seems to have gone with Orcs and Humans for these (as Sauron sent Orcs to the Hithaeglir in 2480 to cut off the passes and occupy Moria - possibly setting up an eventual alliance with the Balrog).

So... These undead seem to mainly be used to haunt Greenwood from 1000 - 2063, prior to Sauron becoming a major power again (remember, he fled from Gandalf in 2063, the beginning of The Watchful Peace, to Far-Rhûn - Where he summoned Khamûl from), and especially so after Sauron's return in 2460, when he officially took on the title of The Necromancer.

What other critters do you imagine he employed?

We know that he had herds of giant Spiders. And swarms of giant Bats were a thing. As were Werewolves (Intelligent Wargs).

And only at the Assault on Dol Guldur by the White Council (which seems to have been the only "armies" deployed by Dol Guldur, and against Dol Guldur - other than the Wainriders, Balchoth, and Orc Armies - until The War of the Ring, when Sauron had Khamûl send armies against both Lórien and Thranduil in March of 3019, and when Celeborn, Galadriel, and Thranduil sent a combined army to destroy the remnants of Dol Guldur's forces and overthrow the fortress - seems Galadriel did this, in imitation of Luthien's assault on Tol-en-Gaurhoth/Tol Sirion in the First Age... Seems that was an Elf-Chick thing: The Power to destroy masonry on a large scale)

So. . . To sum up the queries:

• What sort of Undead would you suspect The Necromancer to employ, both as a host to occupy Mirkwood (and encountered in small-scale battles, such as for the LotR SBG), and as an organized Army Host during the six - seven* set-piece battles (For a Mass Combat Army/Battle, using formed units - regardless of the rules - of several hundred to several thousand "men/orcs/undead/werewolves/etc." each)?
• Would you count Skeletons as being the same as Zombies/Ghouls?
I need to look into the metaphysics involved for Middle-earth, as with the Cosmogony and Theology of Middle-earth's "Fëa/Hróa" distinction, there might or might not be a difference, depending upon what happens to the Fëa of the being involved (for instance, the Fëa of the beings who were trapped in the Dead Swamps remained trapped with the bodies. but a body - Hröa - where the soul - Fëa - had departed, yet was re-animated by a necromancer, would need to be controlled like a puppet, whereas the undead with a Fëa still attached - but controlled by a necromancer - could act semi-autonomously). So... That might be the distinction I am looking for here.
• Would Sauron have had other, possibly Easterling, or Black Númenórean "Occultists/Necromancers" to help him control the hosts of undead?
Especially on the battlefield with the six/seven* Set-piece battles.
• Who do you suppose it was controlling/commanding the hosts of Dol Guldur on the very last Battle when Celeborn led the hosts of Lorien against Dol Guldur with Galadriel?
Did Khamûl, and the other Nazgûl, survive the overthrow of Sauron and the destruction of The Ruling Ring, and return to his designated command of dol Guldur after the defeat at The Black gates?


MB

* The Six/Seven Set-piece battles with the main forces of Dol Guldur (and not proxy Humans/Easterlings or Orcs) were:

1) The initial assault on Dol Guldur in 2941, Third Age, by the White Council? (later reclaimed by Khamûl and a Lieutenant Nazgûl in 2951, TA)
2) The first assault on Lorien in March 5/6 of 3019, Third Age.
3) The first assault on Thranduil's real on March 5/6 of 3019, TA.
4) The second assault on Lorien on March 8/9 of 3019, TA.
5) The third assault on Lorien on March 11, 3019, TA.
5a) The possible second assault on Thranduil, March 11, 3019, TA.
5b) Even though it was entirely Orcs, Rohan was attacked by an army from dol Guldur from March 11, 3019 as well. This army is mostly dealt with by the Drúadan, though. So, seeing as it is really an Orc Army, I don't tend to count this battle.
6/7) The assault on Dol Guldur by Celeborn and Galadriel on March 28, 3019, 3 days after the Fall of Sauron. It is listed by Tolkien as the last Major Battle in the North, so the forces remaining at Dol Guldur must have been respectable to be able to resist the Galadhrim for a whole day

1)undead elves/orcs/hunter men from the woods.
2)in the way they fight and strength yes, but not in defense (for game purposes; since less flesh in the way from rendering them incapable; i.e. shattered vs cut)
3)probably a few black numenoreans, but idk about them being necromancers.
4)orc general

Apower101 wrote:
1)undead elves/orcs/hunter men from the woods. this. also the list stated above makes sense as their are plenty of battlefields left untouched. The thing I see coming up is the issue of proximity to dol guldur. For example the dead marshes are a good distance from dol guldur and if they tried to march around mordor they would have been noticed and checked along the way. I could see them coming through mordor unchecked but again this is a fantasy world so all is possible
2)in the way they fight and strength yes, but not in defense (for game purposes; since less flesh in the way from rendering them incapable; i.e. shattered vs cut) in game I would make both very weak similar combat str to a goblin
3)probably a few black numenoreans, but idk about them being necromancers. this seems to make sense, specters seem mindless as well so I wouldn't consider them but maybe idk
4)orc general

Looking less for "game" qualities than a description of the various "things" that might accompany Dol Guldur's armies.

This is because how they would be listed/stated for a game would differ so severely depending upon the level one examines.

Take the typical undead (Zombie or Skeleton - a Skeleton is really just a Zombie whose flesh has completely rotted off):

• Individually they are very brittle, and not particularly dangerous (they can still swing a sword, or stab with a spear, which keeps them from being harmless, especially at night).
• In large groups, though, units of several thousand, they could be even more dangerous than a unit of living creatures the same size due to the fact that they don't flinch at all to the effects of having large numbers of them killed (i.e. Losing the battle).

Given this difference, how they would be statted for a game like the SBG would be vastly different from their stats in a game like Warmaster, or DBA/HotT.

Also, I would not be so quick to write off the ethereal sorts of undead as being "mindless" or unable to do anything in an army.

Specters, Wights, ghosts, etc. will retain the ability to affect physical objects (see the Tomb of the Barrow Wight in Fellowship of the Ring, or the MANY myths in English folklore about poltergeist apparitions).

As for Black Númenóreans having any sort of magical ability, obviously not on the level of THE Necromancer, but Tolkien did mention that there were humans who dabbled in the occult arts in Middle-east in the lands of Rhûn, where he suspected the Blue Wizards had established such cults there (or, at least one of them).

So it should not be impossible for Sauron to pass on some of these arts to his Black Númenórean subjects, among whom he had introduced Morgoth Worship.

MB

I don't know about them necessarily using the magic but rather being part of the grand plan as in place as "officers" amongst the ranks able to give orders and direct troops in battle. To me this makes the most sense.

I see dol guldur at this point as being largely empty of any meaningful characters (black numenorians, etc.) as none were able to provide meaningful resistance to the elvish onslaught: i.e. the important ones died earlier in the war, or were called to other areas. There must have been orc lieutenants, etc in order to control the defenders. The undead might have some semblance of autonomy or sentience, but as they were symbolic of the sort of regime Sauron wanted to impose on the rest of ME, I doubt they would have been given much more freedom than to obey their officers' commands. As you say, in large units they would likely have been quite dangerous, due to their unbreakable morale, but on an individual basis I see even orcs/goblins as superior fighters.

Also, when it comes to which undead are there, I only really see the woodsmen, and the woodelves (or whatever the elves living near Dol Guldur are called) as well as undead orcs being there, as they are the only ones to have died nearby.


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Also, in regard to magic usage, doubtless there were some numenorians capable of necromancy to a certain degree, but I believe that the reason there were undead in DG was because of the necromancer+khamul being there early in the timeline. I don't really see any black numenorians raising legions of undead to fight in the latter stages of the war, as their forces are broken, despite this being an ideal time as the death count rises for both sides. In that sense, why would DG fall: after all it should logically grow stronger as the war progresses.

I don't mean Black Númenóreans raising legions of undead.

But as field officers for the various Undead that needed more constant supervision, and local detail than could be provided by Sauron, Khamûl, or Khamûl's Lieutenant (another Nazgûl).

Also, as I mentioned, earlier in the Third Age, Sauron would have had ample access to the Dead Marches (Particularly during the Wainrider and Balchoth incursions of the 19th and 26th Centuries).

The Latter, from 2500 - 2510, the incursion of the Balchoth, was the period of the ascension of Dol Guldur as a "globally" (Western Middle-earth) feared power, where the name of The Necromancer became ubiquitous with "The Boogie Man" in Middle-earth.

Dol Guldur was directly instructing the Balchoth (possibly as a part of a long-ranging plan leading to the War of the Ring itself), and they managed to beat the snot out of Gondor for a few years, before finally almost utterly obliterating them, save for the lucky arrival of Éorl the Young with the Éothéod (Rohirrim) at the Battle of the Field of Celebrant (More spoils for the Necromancer).

Even if Gondor and the Éothéod buried their dead, all that was required was for a few orcs to go dig them up while Éorl and Cirion were celebrating their new alliance atop Halifirien.

And, as I mentioned earlier, in the 1800s, the Wainriders Invaded Rhovanion, where the ancestors of the Éothéod lived, and drove them into the eastern eaves of Mirkwood.

In fact, during the Rebellion of the Northmen (Foradan) of Rhovanion, the East Bight of Mirkwood was the site of a giant battle in the Rebellion of the Northmen against the Wainriders by Marhari and his son Marhwini (who would lead the Northmen up the Anduin to the site where they became the Éothéod).

The East Bight was right next to Dol Guldur. And there were thousands of Wainrider and Northmen corpses.

The Wainriders (again, acting under the direction of Khamûl, who ruled over the Lands of Rhûn) would even have been likely to have been instructed to deliver their dead to Dol Guldur for exactly that purpose (an army of undead).

Who knows, maybe even the Wainriders delivered living Northmen to Dol Guldur to be turned into Zombies.

Lastly, as a point of identity:

The Elves living in Southern Greenwood at the beginning of the Third Age were Silvan Elves, a branch of Teleri Moriquendi - Dark Elves.

They dwelt there from before the First Age (they were a company of Nandorim who feared crossing the Hithaeglir - Misty Mountains - which were higher then that during the 1st - 3rd Ages).

But around 1000 3rd Age, when Sauron took up residence in Dol Guldur, and began introducing dangerous things to the forest, the Silvan Elves (ruled by Thranduil, who lived in this southern part of the forest to be nearer to Lórien), which slowly drove the Silvan Elves to the North. By the time of the Watchful Peace (1000 years later) Southern Greenwood was then known as "Mirkwood," a name which would spread to the rest of the forest in the years after the Watchful Peace.

MB

I would start with depictions we know. The Nazgul and Barrow Wights both seem to be mortals whose spirit was broken and bound to some physical focus. The Dead Men of Dunharrow are likewise cursed to haunt because of their service to darkness. Now, Barrow Wights may be some sort of corrupted spirit, úmaiar, separate from men, but the theme seems constant- the dead who remain are twisted, terrifying remnants that rely on fear as much as anything (though the Barrow Wights seem to have potent magic and the Nazgul are quite capable of inflicting physical wounds).

I am unfamiliar with any sources indicating zombies or skeletons of the typical fantasy sort in Middle Earth. Sauron as the Necromancer seems to be referring to his calling up of the Nazgul, Barrow Wights, and the like. He uses terror and fear, employing phantoms and dread more than raising the dead into an actual army. See how Gorlim was tricked. Indeed, the recurrent theme seems to be that he relies of fear and distraction to keep attention away as he builds his true army and seeks the One Ring. Even the most powerful of the undead, the Nazgul, are employed more as scouts and assassins than in any frontline role.

So for a skirmish game, I think you are dead on (pardon the pun). One may run into Barrow Wights, perhaps Restless Dead in the form of an elf or man slain in betrayal or some other dark act, whose spirit lives on, or, most deadly, a Nazgul about on some task or other! All seem to more spirit than not, and dangerous in a supernatural way. Those who are brave seem to fare substantially better, as do those contesting them in daylight and not in a dank tomb!

 jmurph wrote:
I would start with depictions we know. The Nazgul and Barrow Wights both seem to be mortals whose spirit was broken and bound to some physical focus. The Dead Men of Dunharrow are likewise cursed to haunt because of their service to darkness. Now, Barrow Wights may be some sort of corrupted spirit, úmaiar, separate from men, but the theme seems constant- the dead who remain are twisted, terrifying remnants that rely on fear as much as anything (though the Barrow Wights seem to have potent magic and the Nazgul are quite capable of inflicting physical wounds).

I am unfamiliar with any sources indicating zombies or skeletons of the typical fantasy sort in Middle Earth. Sauron as the Necromancer seems to be referring to his calling up of the Nazgul, Barrow Wights, and the like. He uses terror and fear, employing phantoms and dread more than raising the dead into an actual army. See how Gorlim was tricked. Indeed, the recurrent theme seems to be that he relies of fear and distraction to keep attention away as he builds his true army and seeks the One Ring. Even the most powerful of the undead, the Nazgul, are employed more as scouts and assassins than in any frontline role.

So for a skirmish game, I think you are dead on (pardon the pun). One may run into Barrow Wights, perhaps Restless Dead in the form of an elf or man slain in betrayal or some other dark act, whose spirit lives on, or, most deadly, a Nazgul about on some task or other! All seem to more spirit than not, and dangerous in a supernatural way. Those who are brave seem to fare substantially better, as do those contesting them in daylight and not in a dank tomb!

This seems pretty much dead-on to me. If you're looking for a good in-game profile to use, the Dead Marsh Spectres fit perfectly. I doubt they still make them, but you can just convert some out of whatever models you deem appropriate.

 jmurph wrote:
I would start with depictions we know. The Nazgul and Barrow Wights both seem to be mortals whose spirit was broken and bound to some physical focus. The Dead Men of Dunharrow are likewise cursed to haunt because of their service to darkness. Now, Barrow Wights may be some sort of corrupted spirit, úmaiar, separate from men, but the theme seems constant- the dead who remain are twisted, terrifying remnants that rely on fear as much as anything (though the Barrow Wights seem to have potent magic and the Nazgul are quite capable of inflicting physical wounds).

I am unfamiliar with any sources indicating zombies or skeletons of the typical fantasy sort in Middle Earth. Sauron as the Necromancer seems to be referring to his calling up of the Nazgul, Barrow Wights, and the like. He uses terror and fear, employing phantoms and dread more than raising the dead into an actual army. See how Gorlim was tricked. Indeed, the recurrent theme seems to be that he relies of fear and distraction to keep attention away as he builds his true army and seeks the One Ring. Even the most powerful of the undead, the Nazgul, are employed more as scouts and assassins than in any frontline role.

So for a skirmish game, I think you are dead on (pardon the pun). One may run into Barrow Wights, perhaps Restless Dead in the form of an elf or man slain in betrayal or some other dark act, whose spirit lives on, or, most deadly, a Nazgul about on some task or other! All seem to more spirit than not, and dangerous in a supernatural way. Those who are brave seem to fare substantially better, as do those contesting them in daylight and not in a dank tomb!

All interesting points, and I have been over this before, without any investment one way or the other.

But on the opposite side of this, there are real instances of undead that were of a more physical type.

The Corpse Candles in the Dead Marshes are a combination of both physical and spirit body. They, however, tend to be trapped within the swamp. But they are capable of physically attacking a person in the water and dragging them down.

As far as The Necromancer being called that because of the Nazgûl, or Barrow Wights, that cannot possibly be the case, because he was not known to be Sauron for 1500 years of his occupation of Dol Guldur, and the Nazgûl were not associated with Dol Guldur until after the fact (when Sauron set up housekeeping in Mordor after the 2951 ouster from Dol Guldur by the White Council's assault). He definitely has no association with the Barrow Wights (but other Wights could possibly have been created in the remnants of the various major battles fought in the area, as I mentioned.

It does seem, given this, that there were some actual undead of some type scaring people.

This does not mean that the woods and forest of Southern Mirkwood were full of roaming Zombies, Skeletons, and Ghouls (More likely insubstantial spirits).

But given the difficulty and numbers involved with the assault upon Dol Guldur, and the need for the White Council to be present in force, there is a likelihood that physical undead were present in some fashion at that assault, at least.

For the most part, though, Dol Guldur acted through human or orc mediators (Hithaeglir Orcs, Wainriders, Balchoth, and then finally the Easterlings of Rhûn at the end of the Third Age).

But the fact that Tolkien went out of his way to mention The Necromancer and construct a history where he was not connected to any of the known undead (of the Third Age), it does beg the question that there were some "Dead" with which The Necromancer was using to achieve his goals.

I am not suggesting that he be allowed to field huge armies of Undead (other than at the final assault by The White Council), but rather than that he did utilize them to such an extent that he got a name that was suggestive of what occurred surrounding the keep on Amon Lanc.

MB


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Oh!

And the rules I will be using for the eventual forces (both skirmish and Mass Battles), will be portraying most of the undead as assaults upon morale than physical (although some will have the capacity to attack physically, as the Army of the Dead was capable of doing).

These undead would be a sort of cross between the Wights and The Dead, with possibly some of the qualities of the Corpse Candles (capable of stealing souls) for the Skirmish game (with these representing a final boss in a scenario).

And with an Army of such undead for the final assault on Dol Guldur (a few units of a few thousand undead "entities" - similar to The Army of the Dead - under the command of Sauron or Khamûl), yet most of the forces would be Orcs and Easterlings who still occupied most of Rhovanion to the East of the East Bight of Mirkwood.

MB

I probably wasn't clear. While Sauron wasn't identified as such until much later, it seems that he was probably employing the Nazgul as his agents and the Witch King most certainly sent evil spirits to the Barrow Downs, meaning by extension Sauron was involved. But all along, Sauron was intentionally employing deception in his guise as "the Necromancer". It is speculation, but I reason that he was furtively using the Nazgul and other dark spirits to keep anyone from digging too deep into his plans. Certainly Sauron seemed to be able to bind spirits beyond death, but this all seems a ruse using one small aspect of his power to hide his larger aims.

As to Tolkien calling him the Necromancer, it is a more traditional view of necromancy as one who communes with the dead and spirits. I think this quote is instructive:
"It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant."

It is not outside the realm of possibility that such beings could animate deceased remains, but they would be little more than weak puppets. I am not aware of any primary source depicting that though. Even the Corpse Candles seem largely spiritual and lure through trickery and enchantment rather than being a corporeal threat.

All that being said, I like the idea of lesser undead and done sparingly, I don't know that skeletal dead or reanimate corpses would violate the spirit of ME. Whether as ethereal phantoms, puppetry of a stronger will, or as twisted spirits bound still to a rotting husk, they seem to mesh with the setting.

I sort of assumed that Sauron's necromancy was more... spiritual in nature. So things like the spirit hosts we have now.

While I don't have the depth of knowledge to state whether or not zombies and skeletons (more traditional fantasy undead) were raised by his forces, it certainly seems... maybe a bit out of place. But that's just opinion.

Necromancy could generally mean contact with the dead, or just a generic term for magic or power of a malignant nature. But personally, I feel that the specters and spirit hosts represented in Angmar fit pretty well, despite not being in those lists.

I am aware of the passage regarding the deceased in M-e.

It is something I struggle with, which points to the reasoning behind only allowing things like traditional fantasy undead at the siege of Dol Guldur itself, where Sauron would find he was in sudden need of a large number of physical bodies to hold of the assault until he could flee with everything he needed.

There is also the difficulty in the transition from The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, where The Necromancer went from being a petty boogieman to being the greatest threat since the first Dark Lord, Morgoth.

Middle-earth is a tremendously complex place, because it is so bereft of the things we typically place in the Swords & Sorcery genre, inhabited by writers such as Robert E. Howard, or Michael Moorcock (The latter whom had a rather negative opinion of Tolkien's works - as an aside).

In REH or Moorcock's worlds, seeing hoards of skeletons animated by a human necromancer, plying occult powers, would not be such a rarity that it was completely unheard of (Stygia was full of them, and Melnibonë was built by such beings).

But Middle-earth is a world where Magic is not such a common thing, and is either very elemental in nature, derived from a Holy source, or it is a corruption of the natural. Having a "Good Wizard" who was not an Ístari would be a terrific rarity (and nearly impossible feat, given the ontology of Middle-earth's physical and spiritual material). But it would be almost trivial for those who were evil to ply such a trade, even if it would probably cost them terribly.

Tolkien, for his part, had a horrible time even imagining such things.

When I learned what Tolkien meant by "Sub-Creation," and why his understanding of that term nearly paralyzed his later life in writing about Middle-earth, it made me understand why we have such vagaries about things which would seem to be very easy to make concrete. The term "Sub-Creation" comes from Catholic Theology (and other Religious Theologies).

Aulë's creation of the Dwarves is an example of Sub-Creation within Middle-earth (illustrating the very meta-character of The Silmarillion). It is when an artist of craftsman creates something that is then given "reality" by God. That "Imagining" then exists as a real thing, someplace (Tolkien thought as another sort of universe, to be inhabited after death, or before birth).

Thus, if Tolkien was to state something "Official" about Middle-earth, the act of "Sub-Creation" would thus make it real, and unintended consequences could result (with the lives and suffering of millions in the balance).

The Catholic Church's own discussion and rulings on "Sub-Creation" are also rather vague, because any comment on them too strongly could have the same unintended results as the act of Sub-Creation itself.

So... This is why Tolkien spent much of his later life on what would seem to be trifling things about Middle-earth, rather than setting down more consequential stories, or facts.

Which is kind of sad.

Eventually, the gaps will need to be filled, and the epic completed to bridge with our world.

In the meantime, though, exploring what the heck might exist in Middle-earth is something that those of us obsessed with it tend to worry over.

Like what the heck The Necromancer was doing for 2000 years in Dol Guldur that earned him that name.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
Middle-earth is a tremendously complex place, because it is so bereft of the things we typically place in the Swords & Sorcery genre, inhabited by writers such as Robert E. Howard, or Michael Moorcock (The latter whom had a rather negative opinion of Tolkien's works - as an aside).

Michael's opinion of Tolkien is derived from the one article on the subject he wrote, which was written at the height of the first round of Tolkien-mania in the 70's. He actually quite liked the books and the setting, although he preferred more nuanced and grey heroes than Tolkien typically wrote. He said that article was to "stir the pot a bit" as it were, and shake up the contemporary idea that Middle-earth was the be-all and end-all of Fantasy literature.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
Middle-earth is a tremendously complex place, because it is so bereft of the things we typically place in the Swords & Sorcery genre, inhabited by writers such as Robert E. Howard, or Michael Moorcock (The latter whom had a rather negative opinion of Tolkien's works - as an aside).

Michael's opinion of Tolkien is derived from the one article on the subject he wrote, which was written at the height of the first round of Tolkien-mania in the 70's. He actually quite liked the books and the setting, although he preferred more nuanced and grey heroes than Tolkien typically wrote. He said that article was to "stir the pot a bit" as it were, and shake up the contemporary idea that Middle-earth was the be-all and end-all of Fantasy literature.

I met him at Worldcon in 1986 in Brighton. And he was not what I would call a "hater" of Tolkien, but he was rather negative about the atmosphere of the world (and, I think he actually met Tolkien, and found his religious views to be a bit odious. I will admit that this is an aspect where I have great trouble with Tolkien - even if I have found a way to come to terms with it). I spent most of my first day talking to him (I think Bryan Ansell or Ian Miller Introduced me to him) about Tolkien. I know that the topic came up via Ian Miller, who I was talking to about his artwork for Middle-earth turning up in Bakshi's Wizards, which should have been used for Bakshi's actual Lord of the Rings movies (pity that Bakshi ever made that movie, as it was responsible for no one taking Tolkien seriously for another 20 years - I loath that movie even more than I do Jackson's attempt at Middle-earth).

But Moorcock's attitudes and opinions I found to be echoed by another author friend of mine, David Brin, who even wrote a short critical book on the subject of Tolkien and Middle-earth (similar to his views on Star Wars - which has essentially the same stereotypes as Middle-earth. Both are Romances, in the Medieval sense of the word), even if David's are 20 years after Moorcock's.

I think the thing that bothered Michael Moorcock the most was that none of the characters ever attempted to rebel against their fate, or tried to force their own will or form their own opinion about things.

But then in the 1980's, we were still very much ignorant about the depth of Tolkien's "Faith" and Catholic religious influences. In the light of these, it makes perfect sense why the characters have no sense of real "Rebellion" beyond a simple curiosity and fear of being "Left out."

MB


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I should point out that I had much more to discuss with Moorcock than Tolkien, as I had then not read anything but the Elric Saga, and was curious as to how the multiverse fit together.

Moorcock was extremely well versed in the metaphysics that the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Theory implied (as well as could be at the time), and had managed to craft a set of very compelling tales around it.

And, truthfully, I have still not finished all of the "Eternal Champion" series of works. Which is a pity (goes to iBooks and Kindle to see if I still have credit in my account to buy them - does, and does...).

MB


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AHA! Evidence of Other Undead!

In The Lord of the Rings, book 2, chapter 1 Many Meetings, paragraph 37 (it), Gandalf explains to Frodo what the Black Riders (Specifically, the Morgul Lord/Witch-King) did to him during the attack at Weathertop (not "on" Weathertop).

They attacked him with a Morgul-blade, of which a piece broke off, making its way toward his heart.

Frodo asks of Gandalf:

The Lord of the Rings wrote: 'What would they have done to me?' asked Frodo. 'What were the Riders trying to do?'

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; . . . .

So, a "wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord" (aka: The Necromancer) has the ability to move unseen when "unclothed," and to instill fear into people when both clothed and unclothed (although greater when unclothed).

AND when clothed can handle weapons.

Here are the "undead" that the Necromancer used (and Wights - seems that was a thing too, mentioned by Tom Bombadil). Wights it seems are entirely physical, though, and not ghostly apparitions (entirely). Recall that Frodo chops the hand off of one, which flops around like a wounded spider until Tom Bombadil stomps it to death (and out of existence). But their physical form seems to be ephemeral, and can be dispelled with the right magic (See The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where the Barrow-wight he encounters turns to smoke from his song).

So, no need for things like "Skeletons". The Army that held back the assault on Dol Guldur by the White Council contained Lesser Wraiths and Wights (no doubt destroyed by Gandalf and the Many Elf Lords (and Galadriel) who showed up for the assault) along with the greater number of Orcs, Werewolves, and evil men (Dunlendings, or evil Hill-Men from Rhovanion.

It helps to re-read the original sources from beginning to end with a specific goal in mind.

Obviously, this can mean that the original sources need to be re-read MANY TIMES, each time with a specific goal or topic in mind; such that passages pertinent tend to then leap out at you.

Of course, having a searchable PDF copy of the books doesn't hurt either. But often the relevant keywords for a search are hard to come by.

MB

Wow, I never knew about that whole subcreation branch. So essentially he was worried that by defining a fictional world's evils, that would somehow make them more real/ increase net darkness? That doesn't seem to jive with the whole derived authority of man to create- he can only rearrange what the Creator has made. And in any case, it seems an odd view even for a devoutly religious fiction writer. After all, good is still good and evil still evil in the writings.

The point on the lesser wights and wraiths is a very good one. And they are probably more manageable in a skirmish encounter!

 jmurph wrote:
Wow, I never knew about that whole subcreation branch. So essentially he was worried that by defining a fictional world's evils, that would somehow make them more real/ increase net darkness? That doesn't seem to jive with the whole derived authority of man to create- he can only rearrange what the Creator has made. And in any case, it seems an odd view even for a devoutly religious fiction writer. After all, good is still good and evil still evil in the writings.

The point on the lesser wights and wraiths is a very good one. And they are probably more manageable in a skirmish encounter!

It was not explicitly the evil he was worried about.

And it is a terrifically complex, and complicated subject (about which the Catholics prevaricate tremendously).

It has more to do with unintended outcomes, and "revelations" and discoveries (as Tolkien called them) about Middle-earth that could wind up having unintended consequences, which while not explicitly evil, could account for a large amount of suffering.

And, yes, evil could unintentionally be introduced in the process, as happened between writing The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, where Tolkien "discovers" (as he puts it, the sub-creation process is akin to revelation) that Bilbo's seemingly harmless ring happens to be the greatest source of evil of that age.

And even though Tolkien "made Amends" for that fact by destroying the ring, it did mean the innumerable people in Middle-earth suffered and died (and, in Tolkien's mind, these people in Middle-earth were Heathens, who would then be spending all of eternity in either Elysium or much of their time in Purgatory as the "Righteous Unsaved").

I don't think he was worrying about "Increasing net Darkness." That seems to be something he knew was beyond him. It was taking place in it, or being a part of it that he had a problem with, even though he knew it existed.

Oh! And.... a joke a friend of mine said, upon discussing this issue with him amid a larger discussion about our world, and the recent attack in Chattanooga and the prior attack in Charleston:

"Well, you know Sauron was a wraithist and wight-wing extremists!"

MB

I am still a bit baffled why the fictional suffering of a fictional people in a fictional world would bother anyone all that much and it all seem rather off (unless one was somehow idealizing or advocating it, of course, but then they would likely not be troubled by it...). But Tolkien did have some odd views on technology and the like too, so meh.

I am now picturing a orcs with confederate flags.....

 jmurph wrote:
I am still a bit baffled why the fictional suffering of a fictional people in a fictional world would bother anyone all that much and it all seem rather off (unless one was somehow idealizing or advocating it, of course, but then they would likely not be troubled by it...). But Tolkien did have some odd views on technology and the like too, so meh.

I am now picturing a orcs with confederate flags.....

Ask Tolkien, because Tolkien was the one concerned about that.

Apparently you missed the explanation of that. As well as the definition of "Sub-Creation" as a Catholic theology.

MB

I personally feel dol gudur would have been mainly orcs of that region ( and maybe even backup orcs from other regions ) along with plenty of evil spirits as undead.

If I was making a dol guldur army list it would look something like this, being as themed as possible to the books and what we can learn from the history volumes and appendix and this being quite expensive points wise:

The necromancer

2-4 Castellans

1- 5 or a few more black numenorians, I have doubt there was that many around at this point, there seems like the east may have had more there but I don't think there was that many left in middle earth, there was evil men a plenty but black numenorians I seem to get the feeling these were as plentiful as the remaining dunedain were.

12 spectres and a shade with 2-4 barrow wights, this all keeping with the evil spirit necromancer theme. Most of the undead we know about were basically wraiths, ghosts, spirits not actual zombies or modern fantasy ideas of them.

12+ fell wargs

50 or more orcs

1-3 mordor trolls

10-20 mordor uruk hai ( I can imagine him making use of these elites as a bit of an bodyguard and shock unit for the inner areas of the keep just like a few black numenorians.

Outside of SBG army limit sizes and so on, chances are he would have had hundreds if not a 1000 if orcs in the regions with other evil allies, it's bit hard to say though we know gandalf infiltrated dol gudur and there was dungeons so the keep itself had to have some kind of mini army stationed there otherwise gandalf would have just walked right in with no opposition. We also know the elves and most around mirkwood knew it had a growing evil and that there would have been orc attacks and other creatures.

"That's absurd. No such power exists in this world." -Saruman on summoning the dead in the first hobbit movie. (I know, I know)

I don't think Saruman lied here because Gandalf himself and probably the rest of the white council knew that you can't summon the dead. So what kind of power did the necromancer have? There's all kinds of low spirits as old as the world itself which were corrupted by Melkor and as Sauron learned the ways of witchcraft, he probably could control these lesser spirits and command them to take more physical forms as could the witch king with barrow wights. that's just my theory.

I believe, like ringwraiths, spectres, dead faces etc cannot be used as a standalone army because their main power is in reducing morale of the enemy and spells and I feel like most of these spirits are bound to a certain place and cannot move and act rather independently. In fact, the faces of the dead were probably just a vision produced by the corrupted swamp. Then of course the soldiers of the dead must be a different kind of spiritual beings.

I'm not exactly sure if the battle around dol guldur happened exactly at the same time when the nazgul were summoned to the black gate but I'd say there was a winged nazgul as a commander.

This whole tangent about sub-creation is pretty wonky and I think quite prejudiced. The idea of sub-creation in Catholicism is actually pretty simple and non-controversial: man, being made in God's image, reflects God's nature, including as Creator; therefore man is also creative, albeit as a creature himself, his creation is subordinate (within, contingent upon) God's Creation. By contrast, the notion that God turns fiction into reality in some parallel dimension is bizarre. Imputing this belief to Tolkien, without a shred of evidence to support such a claim, is borderline libelous. Be Afraid has previously claimed to have found documents among Tolkien's papers proving Tolkien believed this and that these documents were subsequently removed by Christopher Tolkien to protect his father's reputation. But Christopher Tolkien himself has explained on the record his own opinion about his father's later, less productive years:which strikes me as altogether more convincing. EDIT: The time-specific YT link is not working, skip to 4:21 for the pertinent discussion.

As to the subject of the undead: "necromancy" as Tolkien used the term seems to me to be about power over death rather than the "materialistic" ability to reanimate dead tissue. The biological aspect of persons seems to be irrelevant -- literally so: the Ring Wraiths are substance-less. They never died in the conventional since; rather they vanished, so to speak. Or, whatever made them persons vanished, leaving only what aspect of them that could serve as extensions of the Dark Lord's will.

The undead or what we could class as undead in middle earth is hard to fully explain as I don't think Tolkien himself really delved into this much, we def know a good bit about the wraiths but we also know the barrow wights existed and were capable of killing at least. I think....and am not totally sure on this, but I think they were sorta animated corpses, the dead marsh is a bit harder to figure out as frodo only saw faces or images of the dead.

We do know it was the witch king who sent these evil spirits to inhabit and "animate" these barrow wights, so right there it's clear the witch king was making use of necromany, we also know he would have learned this from his dealings or exposure to sauron. Since sauron was known as the necromancer during his time in mirkwood and dg, then it would be within the realm of possibility that he would have had some forms of lesser evil spirits, not an army no or legions of them, but most likely he would have some kind of "shock spirit troops" in his service along with hordes of orcs, trolls and spiders and beasts loyal to him in and around the areas.

For these reasons I think the castellans and a shade or a few spectres would be totally within theme for DG itself. The inner sanctum area at least.

Revenant78 wrote:
The undead or what we could class as undead in middle earth is hard to fully explain as I don't think Tolkien himself really delved into this much, we def know a good bit about the wraiths but we also know the barrow wights existed and were capable of killing at least. I think....and am not totally sure on this, but I think they were sorta animated corpses, the dead marsh is a bit harder to figure out as frodo only saw faces or images of the dead.

We do know it was the witch king who sent these evil spirits to inhabit and "animate" these barrow wights, so right there it's clear the witch king was making use of necromany, we also know he would have learned this from his dealings or exposure to sauron. Since sauron was known as the necromancer during his time in mirkwood and dg, then it would be within the realm of possibility that he would have had some forms of lesser evil spirits, not an army no or legions of them, but most likely he would have some kind of "shock spirit troops" in his service along with hordes of orcs, trolls and spiders and beasts loyal to him in and around the areas.

For these reasons I think the castellans and a shade or a few spectres would be totally within theme for DG itself. The inner sanctum area at least.

As you rightly conclude, the Witch King would be using "Necromancy" (which is what Tolkien referred to any type of "occult" oriented "magic").

The Necromancer had sent out hoards of undead to menace Southern Mirkwood (indicating that the descendants of the Northmen/Foradan were still living in both Rhovanion and the vales of the Anduin).

So an "army" wouldn't be out of the question for what an "army" would have been considered during the Dark Years of the latter Third Age (roughly 1000 - 5000 "men").

And, many of his minions may have been actual men, drawn to him from the remnants of the Balchoth who had settled in Rhovanion after having their army knocked out from under them by Éorl. These men were already in League with Sauron/The Necromancer, and were there, having invaded Rhovanion and Eastern Gondor at his behest.

So, seeing 5000 men and "undead" should not be a surprise. It would be unlikely to see many Goblins/Orcs at that time, though. Post-Hobbit, under Khamûl's watch their numbers would have grown,

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
Sauron, while dwelling at Dol Guldur from 1000 - 2063, and then from 2460 - 2941, was know, as I hope we all know, as The Necromancer.

And with what do we associate Necromancy?

Well... The Undead, of course.

Go head it ounds fun. However you are applying a D&D and GW based image of undead. Wheras Tolkiens undead are base on norse and celtic myth. Sauron only had nine undead in his army, his Nazgul, and it is arguable whether they are true undead.

The only unequivicably true undead in the sagas is the army summoned by Aragorn.

Necromancy means the study of death magic, and that is something that Sauron did specialise in. More Avada Kavadra and less Raise Zombie.

That being said just because it isnt in the sagas doesnt men it cant happen. Undead are canonical and therefore there is no reason why Sauron cant get some, however the would have more in common with Nose draugr (see Skyrim) than a Khemrian or Vampire Counts army.

Norse and SAXON myth, NOT Celtic.

Celtic is a foreign thing in Middle-earth.

And, in Middle-earth, "The Undead" encompass a great deal more than just Zombies and Ghouls.

As I have pointed out before, also, "Necromancy" to Tolkien refers to pretty much all explicit "Magic" (forcibly altering the world through the imposition of one's Will).

Tom Shippey and Humphrey Carpenter both detail this aspect of Tolkien's beliefs, and Christopher Tolkien expounds upon the differences between what everyone calls magic, as used by the Elves, and what Tolkien himself meant by the term.

By Tolkien's view, even Orcs would be a form of Undead, as their Fëa's had been broken, or distorted (They no longer had "True Life" as did the Children of Ilúvatar).

MB