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What're your opinions on the topic?

This came to my attention today after I played a relatively new player with Von Schill. Who promptly dropped Izamu in an activation, netting me 3 points for murder prot on turn 2, then drew out all his crew and survived.


I'm trying to think of a way to actually make the game simple for newer players, whilst not gimping myself out of a thematic crew.

Set yourself objectives that handicap you but don't completely disrupt the game. Something like picking rival models and trying to seal the kill with them only.

All of the Outcast masters are very viable and run quite well in-theme.

Von Schill, the Viktorias, Misaki are all very balanced, easy to pick up and not get bored with, and strong masters/crews.

Tara is kind of the middle ground (a few tricks, not all in-theme, and easy to learn, but difficult to master).

Hamelin, Leveticus, and Jack Daw are much trickier to get used to and have very strong crews, but will just about ruin a new player's experience.

For demos, I always use Henchman crews (I rattle off every theme in Malifaux, have them pick one, then take that Henchman and 2 minions). Masters come in 2 games later.

I'm not talking about demos. Im talking about games against players who dont play that often/only recently started playing.

As stated, I've taken Von Schill against multiple newer players and pretty much just ground them under my boot, regardless of the flips in question.

I think if you're trying to teach the newer players how to play and form a strategy, it would be prudent to offer advice on how to play to the mission. Reinforce for them that the crews are built based on your strategy and scheme pools, and that the game isn't simply about "killing the enemy" (at least not all the time, anyway).

If you're trying to encourage the newer players to expand, and show them the ropes of the game, and teaching them how to form their own strategies, then I would purposely softball the game for them. Or just play smaller point games. Henchmen Hardcores change the game a lot more, and level the playing field in ways that make it easier for new players to learn.

Because honestly, if my concern is winning by too big of a margin, while trying to teach the new players in my community, then as the most experienced player, I would take it upon myself to "slow pitch" myself in an effort to teach them. And then once they start getting better, slowly start taking the "Kiddy Gloves" off.

Good luck!

I think your asking the wrong question, you've proved outcasts are viable by caning your opponents, that's not in dispute but as a game Malifaux really does punish newer players with what is at times a punitive learning curve, a friend of mine started Malifaux after me and my best buddy had been playing for a while, his confidence it shot to pieces, he picked a crew he liked the look of, found it didn't play the way he wanted and struggled to find how to use it perceiving it as his own fault. Its really poisoned him against the game.

My solution thus far has been lending him a mix of my crews to find a better blend of aesthetics and what he wants functionally. Izamu being dropped in one activation from Von Schill is perfectly believable, he chews through izamu's primary defence like a knife through hot butter.

If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.


Again, I cannot stress enough that going straight into full games is a very steep learning curve with Malifaux its why I'm so happy the starter box is on the way, besides the guild boxes there hasn't been a good simple crew to learn the game with.

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

I don;t think its that clear cut, I mean taken in a vacuum Lady J can output enough damage to slot Schill with 2AP even with armour +1, the shirts irrelevant if he can't activate to take the 0, taken outside the vacuum it depends on crew construction, not saying Freikorps aren't bad-ass but I've seen Von Schill taken out fairly easy by the lady Severe 7 with built in trigger is never something to sniff at.

danp164 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

I don;t think its that clear cut, I mean taken in a vacuum Lady J can output enough damage to slot Schill with 2AP even with armour +1, the shirts irrelevant if he can't activate to take the 0, taken outside the vacuum it depends on crew construction, not saying Freikorps aren't bad-ass but I've seen Von Schill taken out fairly easy by the lady Severe 7 with built in trigger is never something to sniff at.

Lady J needs to stack the odds in her favour.

In a Vacuum, Von Schill vs Lady J is effectively a top deck situation.And whoever said that her severe is 7 is lying, it's 7 with critical strike declared.

Outside the vacuum, Von Schill wins hands down. He's got the healing, Hannah to deny lady justice her built in trigger, the jack knife to ruin her defence, and other tricks.

Justice NEEDS to kill him in a single activation, which she can't do even on two severes unless she declares crit strike on both.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

I don;t think its that clear cut, I mean taken in a vacuum Lady J can output enough damage to slot Schill with 2AP even with armour +1, the shirts irrelevant if he can't activate to take the 0, taken outside the vacuum it depends on crew construction, not saying Freikorps aren't bad-ass but I've seen Von Schill taken out fairly easy by the lady Severe 7 with built in trigger is never something to sniff at.

Lady J needs to stack the odds in her favour.

In a Vacuum, Von Schill vs Lady J is effectively a top deck situation.And whoever said that her severe is 7 is lying, it's 7 with critical strike declared.

Outside the vacuum, Von Schill wins hands down. He's got the healing, Hannah to deny lady justice her built in trigger, the jack knife to ruin her defence, and other tricks.

Justice NEEDS to kill him in a single activation, which she can't do even on two severes unless she declares crit strike on both.

I don't agree with this.

You have to take into account card control, soulstones, board control, ranged threats.

Lady J gets Austringers which are hands-down one of the strongest Guild minions and will force your opponent to discard his/her hand.

Lady J very often is running around with Francisco, so that's a +2 df and wp. She heals and pulses out condition removal (not to mention Stalkers).

Death Marshals are always a solid option for just burying a threat (and there's always that silly Papa Loco trick).

Lady Justice and Von Schill are two of the most balanced masters in the game.

 Dr. What wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

I don;t think its that clear cut, I mean taken in a vacuum Lady J can output enough damage to slot Schill with 2AP even with armour +1, the shirts irrelevant if he can't activate to take the 0, taken outside the vacuum it depends on crew construction, not saying Freikorps aren't bad-ass but I've seen Von Schill taken out fairly easy by the lady Severe 7 with built in trigger is never something to sniff at.

Lady J needs to stack the odds in her favour.

In a Vacuum, Von Schill vs Lady J is effectively a top deck situation.And whoever said that her severe is 7 is lying, it's 7 with critical strike declared.

Outside the vacuum, Von Schill wins hands down. He's got the healing, Hannah to deny lady justice her built in trigger, the jack knife to ruin her defence, and other tricks.

Justice NEEDS to kill him in a single activation, which she can't do even on two severes unless she declares crit strike on both.

I don't agree with this.

You have to take into account card control, soulstones, board control, ranged threats.

Lady J gets Austringers which are hands-down one of the strongest Guild minions and will force your opponent to discard his/her hand.

Lady J very often is running around with Francisco, so that's a +2 df and wp. She heals and pulses out condition removal (not to mention Stalkers).

Death Marshals are always a solid option for just burying a threat (and there's always that silly Papa Loco trick).

Lady Justice and Von Schill are two of the most balanced masters in the game.

While you may be correct Dr. What going back the original issue thedarkavenger is correct. Von Shill + Hannah is nasty and thematic and may be too much for a new player to handle. Assuming newb Lady J vs semi-experienced Von Shill the Lady J player will still be learning pine box shenanigans, probably won't have Francisco (that's another $50 box remember) and they'll probably be way too aggressive trying to kill their opponent. Meanwhile the Austrigers require good draws/flips and knowing how powerful hand manipulation is.

Honestly the only thing I can think of for playing a thematic outcast crew and not stomping the players you want to stick around is playing with a silent handicap. For example you have Lazarus with only one target that you know you can drop in one shot. Rather than take the one shot and reposition use auto fire and effectively waste an ap and card. Or find a crazy combo that requires near perfect set up and try to pull it off.

Chaotic, the problem you're describing isn't Starter box VS starter box, it's someone having a large collection and someone not. Comparing box to box would be a better idea since that is what newer players are likely to be using.

 Dr. What wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

danp164 wrote:
If you want a good game for a new player vs Von Schill pull out lady J's crew, Mcmourning or even Nico so long as the Freikorps dont bring a specialist to clear corpse counters.

Lady J vs Schill is a no brainer. She doesn't stand a chance. He's got the shirt, the librarian, and hannah. She relies on killing things. He's got armour and a high defence. Believe me, as a primarily guild player, I've had that fight play out more times than I can count.

I don;t think its that clear cut, I mean taken in a vacuum Lady J can output enough damage to slot Schill with 2AP even with armour +1, the shirts irrelevant if he can't activate to take the 0, taken outside the vacuum it depends on crew construction, not saying Freikorps aren't bad-ass but I've seen Von Schill taken out fairly easy by the lady Severe 7 with built in trigger is never something to sniff at.

Lady J needs to stack the odds in her favour.

In a Vacuum, Von Schill vs Lady J is effectively a top deck situation.And whoever said that her severe is 7 is lying, it's 7 with critical strike declared.

Outside the vacuum, Von Schill wins hands down. He's got the healing, Hannah to deny lady justice her built in trigger, the jack knife to ruin her defence, and other tricks.

Justice NEEDS to kill him in a single activation, which she can't do even on two severes unless she declares crit strike on both.

I don't agree with this.

You have to take into account card control, soulstones, board control, ranged threats.

Lady J gets Austringers which are hands-down one of the strongest Guild minions and will force your opponent to discard his/her hand.

Lady J very often is running around with Francisco, so that's a +2 df and wp. She heals and pulses out condition removal (not to mention Stalkers).

Death Marshals are always a solid option for just burying a threat (and there's always that silly Papa Loco trick).

Lady Justice and Von Schill are two of the most balanced masters in the game.

So what you're saying is, in order for lady J to compete, she needs n injured opponent and odds stacked in her favour.

 BrokenColony wrote:
Chaotic, the problem you're describing isn't Starter box VS starter box, it's someone having a large collection and someone not. Comparing box to box would be a better idea since that is what newer players are likely to be using.

Yes and no, I'm sure that there is some of that going on but using the models mentioned you have the Hired Guns box ($50) and Hannah (+$35 for $85 total) a themed start into Outcasts coming from the experienced player vs Guild's Judgement ($45) Latigo Posse (+$45) and Austrigers (+$21 for $111 total) for the new player. I know popular advice is two crew boxes and a fate deck but one crew box, a minion box, and fate deck is a more reasonable expectation for what the new player has.

Regardless the problem is Dr. What and danp164 are attacking the problem from the wrong end, thedarkavenger wanted ideas on how to avoid ROFLstomping the new players while staying in theme and the advice is essentially "have the newer players get more/diffrent models and know how to beat you"

If you keep losing you're less likely to want to throw money at it and if you did then you're going to think the game is pay to win, which is going to put a lot of people off.

 ChaoticMind wrote:

 BrokenColony wrote:
Chaotic, the problem you're describing isn't Starter box VS starter box, it's someone having a large collection and someone not. Comparing box to box would be a better idea since that is what newer players are likely to be using.

Yes and no, I'm sure that there is some of that going on but using the models mentioned you have the Hired Guns box ($50) and Hannah (+$35 for $85 total) a themed start into Outcasts coming from the experienced player vs Guild's Judgement ($45) Latigo Posse (+$45) and Austrigers (+$21 for $111 total) for the new player. I know popular advice is two crew boxes and a fate deck but one crew box, a minion box, and fate deck is a more reasonable expectation for what the new player has.

Regardless the problem is Dr. What and danp164 are attacking the problem from the wrong end, thedarkavenger wanted ideas on how to avoid ROFLstomping the new players while staying in theme and the advice is essentially "have the newer players get more/diffrent models and know how to beat you"

That's the point exactly. I don't really want to be corralled into taking Justice/Sonnia against newer players all the time.

As for Outcasts, Von Schill's thematic crew earns points well, and doesnt give any up easily, as well as deny effectively.

The Viks just kill stuff too quickly. Getting your toys whirlwinded off before they do anything is not fun.

Tara is just too shenanigan-y. The ability to remove models from play is just bad, and can create negative play experiences, which is unfortunate as bury shenanigans is all she does.

I am never taking Levi against any new or newish player ever again, unless they play one of three specific crews against me, but that's just out of spite.

Jack Daw suffers from a bucket of issues. Lady Ligeia denying the ability to cheat, Monty bringing stuff in curse range, the application of curses and the ability to hire in tormented models out of faction.

Hamelin just lengthens the game and does nothing. People are less likely to play again if their first experience is against a master who just drags out a game by summoning stuff that does nothing.

Misaki is the one outcast master I dont own. She might be the solution to my issues though. But, thats spending even more money on malifaux. And ive already dropped £900 on outcasts already.

If you want a themed crew skip Misaki in outcasts. She is dual faction but last blossom models are all 10T only. She can infiltrate 4 but that won't get you a playable crew.

 ChaoticMind wrote:
If you want a themed crew skip Misaki in outcasts. She is dual faction but last blossom models are all 10T only. She can infiltrate 4 but that won't get you a playable crew.

Actually, Misaki's fluff starts with her coming to Malifaux as a mercenary to gather intel for her father. Hans, Gunslingers, and Ronin are all confirmed people she's bumped into and the Viks and Sue may have done jobs with her. Plus with Oathkeeper and the Emissary, you get that nice callback to 5 AP Misaki.

 Dr. What wrote:

 ChaoticMind wrote:
If you want a themed crew skip Misaki in outcasts. She is dual faction but last blossom models are all 10T only. She can infiltrate 4 but that won't get you a playable crew.

Actually, Misaki's fluff starts with her coming to Malifaux as a mercenary to gather intel for her father. Hans, Gunslingers, and Ronin are all confirmed people she's bumped into and the Viks and Sue may have done jobs with her. Plus with Oathkeeper and the Emissary, you get that nice callback to 5 AP Misaki.

Ah, never read any 1/1.5 fluff, I was going on 2e fluff and which models are Last Blossom. Using that and what I understand of Misaki thedarkavenger would only need her and Shang sense it sounds like he has a good pile of outcasts allready. From what I understand of Misaki you use her a cruse missile or hit and run beat-stick.

 ChaoticMind wrote:

 Dr. What wrote:

 ChaoticMind wrote:
If you want a themed crew skip Misaki in outcasts. She is dual faction but last blossom models are all 10T only. She can infiltrate 4 but that won't get you a playable crew.

Actually, Misaki's fluff starts with her coming to Malifaux as a mercenary to gather intel for her father. Hans, Gunslingers, and Ronin are all confirmed people she's bumped into and the Viks and Sue may have done jobs with her. Plus with Oathkeeper and the Emissary, you get that nice callback to 5 AP Misaki.

Ah, never read any 1/1.5 fluff, I was going on 2e fluff and which models are Last Blossom. Using that and what I understand of Misaki thedarkavenger would only need her and Shang sense it sounds like he has a good pile of outcasts allready. From what I understand of Misaki you use her a cruse missile or hit and run beat-stick.

Misaki works with her built in Trigger. You park her behind terrain blocking her from being charged, run out and charge, kill something, and on the last attack, you push her back 4" so she can't be hit.


As for my pile of outcasts, All I don't own master wise is Misaki and Hamelin, with a few big mercs like Lazarus waiting to be thrown into the mix.

But the main thing that's bothering me about the outcasts is the fact that I can't really use my favourite masters against most people in the area. Out of the three people I can use them against, one is also an outcast player, one plays powergamey gremlins and the other plays neverborn. So that means I have one guy I can pull full shenanigans against reliably.

I hear you man, when I started playing with my buddy, I had to limit my use of Perdita and the Family. She just clicked with me and pretty much whatever my buddy threw at me it died right quick to bullets. He didn't really have fun until iI played with some Masters I wasn't overly familiar with, and purchased a few more models (which isn't always an immediate possibility due to finances or real world problems). Slightly handicapping yourself to keep somebody interested and playing I find more enjoyable than running an ideal list. More people playing meansmore opponents, and the game spreading.