Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A lot of units were over looked that needed some improvements to get them onto the table top. Most of what you'll see here are price increases and increases in thier functionality. A lot of the changes surround the Kroot and Vespid - I think these changes would make Tau even more diverse and you could see very different strategies come into play rather than gunlines, castling and mass suits.

New Formation - Ethereal Conclave
Aun'va, Aun'Shi or Aun'do - must have 0-1
1-4 Ethereals
0-4 Unit of Ethereal Guards

*Sell box sets of 5 units of Ethereal guards $$$

HQ
Aun'va - 200pts
He and his guards now have a 4++
His failure is not an option ability extends to 24"
Greater Invocation is now 24" bubble
Ethereal Guards have I4
Honour blades are AP3

Aun'shi - 150pts
Has 4++
His failure is not an option ability extends to 24"
Once per game can enact 2 invocations a turn - like Aun'Do
Has recon armor
Hover Drone
Honor Blade is +2, AP3
Can take Ethereal Honor guards - up to 5, for 25pts each

Farsight - 210 - move to LOW
Change to - BS5, WS6, S5, T5, W4, I5, A4, Ld10, Sv2+
Add - Feel No Pain, Eternal Warrior - conferred by the Dawnblade - Dawnblade increased to 2+ str, AP 2, Armorbane, Master Crafted
- Change Plasma Rifle to Enhanced Plasma Blaster, 24" Assault 2, S6 AP2 - Twin-linked

Add as an HQ
Anghkor Prok - Kroot Master Shaper - 100
Change to - BS5, WS5, S4, T4, W3, I5, A4, Ld10, Sv4+/4++
Stealth (all), Outflank, Acute Senses, Move Through Cover, FNP
Inspirational Presence - Upped to 12" from 6 - allows kroot units to re-roll hits in close combat.
Can take any Infantry weapon in the Tau Codex

Kroot - 10 pts per model - shapers 20pts.
All Kroot units(including Hounds and Krootox) have Stealth (all), Outflank, Acute Senses, Move Through Cover
Change to -
Kroot WS4, BS3, S3, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld8, Sv5+
Kroot Shaper WS5, BS3, S3, T4, W3, I4, A1, Ld9, Sv4+/4++

Kroot Rifle - 24" S4, AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse
Kroot Rifle Melee - Str +1, AP-
Sniper rounds removed
Shapers can no longer take pulse rifles or carbines

Kroot Hounds are beasts and Krootox become cavalry and are both No FOC options that can be opened when kroot are taken as troops. - Like Lone Wolves
For every kroot troop choice, Tau can take 1 pack of hounds - 5 models and 1 pack of Krootox - 3 models

Hounds now cost 10 pts per model
Krootox are now 30 pts per model
Both Hounds and Krootox gain Shred and Rend via Claws

Kroot Hounds WS4, BS0, S4, T4, W1, I5, A3, Ld7, Sv5+
- 2x Claws each

Krootox WS4, BS3, S5, T5, W2, I4, A2, Ld8, Sv4+
- 2x Claws each
Kroot Gun - 36" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire, Pulse


Both Fliers changed to
BS 4, Front 12, Side 11, Rear 11, HP 3

Razorshark - 150
+ Gets interceptor drones
--Interceptor drones changed to have velocity trackers
--- Drones gain a wound
--- Ion Rifles changed to Twin-Linked Ion Rifle
- Loses Chin Burst cannon
-- replaced for Networked Markerlight
+ Gains the missile Turret the Sunshark has
-- Can be twin-linked like the Sunshark
Quad Ion Turret Changed
+ Heavy 8 Twin-linked, loses blast
Sunshark - 175
--Interceptor drones changed to have velocity trackers
--- Drones gain a wound
--- Ion Rifles changed to Twin-Linked Ion Rifle
--Bomb Generator does not Fail permanently - Rule should be similar spider scarab creation. before the bombing run role d6. on a 1 or 2, no bomb is generated
---Pulse Bomb --- Now Str 10 AP 5 large Blast

Vespid - 20pts each - 30pts for Strain Leader
Stealth (all)
WS 5, BS3, S5, T5, W2, I6, A3, Ld7, 3+
Strain leader
WS 5, BS3, S5, T5, W2, I6, A4, Ld9, 3+
Neutron Blaster Changed to Assault 2
Gain - 2xRipping Claws each - gain Shred and Rend

I'd lap Farsight up if this happened:

When Farsight deals any unsaved wound in Assault using the Dawn Blade, roll a D3 for each wound and apply the following effects.

1- Nothing Happened
2- Farsight gains +1 wound up to his maximum.
3- Farsight gains half the wounds he caused back rounding up.

While it does make sense he could heal from melee attacks since thats kinda the whole reason hes still alive is the Dawn Blade siphoning the life force from his foes, nothing in this game (far as i know) can heal more than 1 wound per turn.

He really should have EW, +2str, and the ability to heal 1 wound per turn via melee. Reason being is because hes a lone wolf in the army, there is NOTHING he wants to join up with other than to get down the board with some ablative wounds, outside that he is completely out of place.
EW so he doesnt die to dumb stuff, since someone who has survived centuries of battles should be pretty hard to kill, and +2Str because quite frankly hes pretty weak lol AP2 and high WS is all he has going for him atm. Armorbane means nothing unless its against a vehicle, and with his low strength it still doesnt mean much against any walker or vehicle with higher than 10 rear.

As for the OP:
Majority of those changes seem a bit overbearing and unnecessary. We dont need insane overhauls of these units, just ones that make them viable. Not every unit needs to be ultimately powerful like our MCs.

A bit over the top for most of these changes.

For Kroot just keep them the same price and make the kroot gun assault 2 (nerf to 18" if you want), +1 attack on their profile, and let the shaper upgrade give all kroot hammer of wrath. The biggest problem with Kroot is that they are a close combat unit that would rather shoot than charge (since they can't do both) and their lack of strength, armor, and toughness makes them actually worse than Fire Warriors when charged (defensive grenades and armor help a lot for the Fire Warrior's case). If they got a bit more offensive punch on the charge and the ability to shoot and charge then you might have a decent assault unit. Str 3 hammer of wrath is still bad but it would make the shaper upgrade less horrible.

For Vespids just make their gun assault 2 and maybe let them be jump and jet infantry (JSJ really fits their nature of hit and run in ruins while jump infantry rules reflects their speed). They don't need that many attacks in CC, they should charge in to finish off wounded enemies or vulnerable targets, not be the offspring of an elder and a flayed one.

Vespids should not have 3 attacks. making them and kroot close combat monsters is just a cheap way to negate the armies weakness.

This is how I would fix them
Make a new faction of mercenaries.
Give them:
- a decent detachment of formations & some new formations
-different allied rules per unit
- Make some new characters. that buff them with some funky special rules and items
- Make some variations of the units ( the way the old chapter approved did)
-Give them access to most normal wargear of allied armies ( and for the love of god link the rules in other books, don't copy them.)
The idea of a kroot character running around with a cammo cloak and a power klaw is just too good to pas by.

This old chapter approved article could offer some inspiration.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note it would be great if this not only included Kroot and vespids but also some of the dark eldar royal court mercenaries, freebooters and even some renegade humans.

Here's what I'd do:

I'm mostly OK with those Ethereal changes. Yeah, it makes them more effective in CC, but that's a big risk, so I'm OK with that. Aun'Va as a LOW with an added shield generator is OK too.

Commander Farsight: Lord of War, 190pts

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W4 I5 A4 Ld 10 Sv 3+/4++
Wargear: The Dawn Blade, two Plasma Rifles, Shield Generator, Stimulant Injector, Vectored Retro-Thrusters
Special Rules: Fleet, Hit & Run, Feel No Pain, Eternal Warrior, Stubborn.
The Dawn Blade: S user, AP2, Melee, Armourbane, Master-Crafted, Chronophage
Chronophage: When a model inflicts an unsaved wound in close combat using a weapon with this special rule, they regain one Wound lost earlier in the game to a maximum of their starting number.

Kroot:
Same as in the book except for the following -
Kroot Rifle: becomes 18" S4 AP6 Assault 2, Pulse -OR- 24" S X AP6 Heavy 1 Sniper with Sniper Rounds. In melee, is treated as two weapons rather than two-handed, but keeps AP5. Taking a Shaper grants Furious Charge, and the Shaper can take a Power Maul (15 pts).

Vespids: Gain Furious Charge, 2x Close Combat Weapon each, gun becomes Assault 2. Price stays unmodified, I think... They're not excessively expensive as-is, but probably won't be criminally undercosted even with buffs. They shouldn't be CC monsters, but they also shouldn't be useless. As it stands now, Vespids are a one-trick pony that's not good enough at that one trick to be worth taking.

Vespids would be a great anti-meq force if they didn't cost so damn much. I would be fine keeping their current cost and just making their weapons Assault 2 and giving them either furious charge or 2 cc weapons. That I6 should be good for something!

 Vineheart01 wrote:

EW so he doesnt die to dumb stuff, since someone who has survived centuries of battles should be pretty hard to kill

Yep, like Kharn or Lucius the eternal...oh wait

The problem with them is that anti-MEQ is mostly all they do: S5 isn't a great threat to vehicles and MCs, and AP3 doesn't threaten TEQs. Their greatest advantage is being in the Fast Attack slot instead of Elite, because their main competition is Crisis Suits with Plasma or Fusion. With the tweaks we've proposed, they'd have enough volume to be at least something of an anti-MC threat, and in CC they could tear up GEQ well enough or polish off MEQ survivors, and that alone might make them worth taking.

I'm absolutely loving the changes made to THE KING in the OP. The Dawn Blade needs to be +2 Str, so he has a chance in melee vs. monstrous creatures.

 koooaei wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

EW so he doesnt die to dumb stuff, since someone who has survived centuries of battles should be pretty hard to kill

Yep, like Kharn or Lucius the eternal...oh wait

Who are also underpowered.

I agree that the auxiliaries changes are lame. Tau do not need and should not get melee troops. GW even reaffirmed this when Kroot got nerfed down in the 6e codex.

Find another way to change them up. Something like:

Fieldcraft: Kroot have Shrouded and Move Through Cover. While within 6" of a Kroot model, Tau infantry models have Stealth and Move Through Cover.

Gives them a neat use and focuses on their role as allies and aids.

raverrn wrote:
I agree that the auxiliaries changes are lame. Tau do not need and should not get melee troops. GW even reaffirmed this when Kroot got nerfed down in the 6e codex.

Find another way to change them up. Something like:

Fieldcraft: Kroot have Shrouded and Move Through Cover. While within 6" of a Kroot model, Tau infantry models have Stealth and Move Through Cover.

Gives them a neat use and focuses on their role as allies and aids.

Isn't the point of the kroot that they ARE better at melee than the tau? And why the hell would a fire warrior get suddenly more stealthy when within shouting distance of a kroot?

Kroot are the melee cover for the Tau. They make up for that weakness. Unfortunately they suck at it about as much as fire warriors do.

The point of Kroot is to be alien and different than Tau, to perform as some kind of counterpoint - same with Vespid. "Being good in melee" is one way of doing that, but it is an unhealthy one.

 Vankraken wrote:
The biggest problem with Kroot is that they are a close combat unit

Are they? They appear to have been designed (not originally, but in the last codex) as snipers and objective takers, not as close combat units at all.

Originally, kroot were WS4 S4 T3 with 2 attacks from their gun that counts as 2 combat weapons for 7pts each. They didnt even have a t-shirt save, and coupled with their T3 they didnt last long at allll. Thats why once allies became a thing tau players started bringing REAL orks instead of kroot to be their melee meat shields.

Assuming they get to melee, they were vastly better than Firewarriors in melee. In the 6th/7th codex? HA! Firewarriors are better now. They lost an attack and a strength for a 1pt cost cut (which is brought back via sniper rounds) and given a t-shirt save by default, which means nothing. Firewarriors are 3pts more expensive but have a vastly superior gun and have essentially identical melee capabilities otherwise - WS2 instead of WS4 being the main difference, but as we know WS2 is only a problem if you face WS5 people...meaning youre boned anyway if you face that. The 4+ armor will help way way more than the WS4.

I dont agree with their change. I dont think Tau should be completely devoid of melee units, but we shouldnt have insanely good ones. If our kroot were brought back to the level of ork boyz i'd probably field them again because they can assault objectives and have a decent hope of winning, while right now they cant even move thanks to sniper rounds.

The other issue at hand is Kroot aren't 'forgotten'. They've got a solid niche and see play as-is.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Originally, kroot were WS4 S4 T3 with 2 attacks from their gun that counts as 2 combat weapons for 7pts each. They didnt even have a t-shirt save, and coupled with their T3 they didnt last long at allll. Thats why once allies became a thing tau players started bringing REAL orks instead of kroot to be their melee meat shields.

Assuming they get to melee, they were vastly better than Firewarriors in melee. In the 6th/7th codex? HA! Firewarriors are better now.

In melee? Depends on what they're fighting. The AP 5 on kroot weapons in CC was I think established to allow them to beat GEQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:

10 FWs charge 10 Guardsmen

Guardsmen overwatch: 1/6 x 1/2 x /12 = 1/24 x 20 = about 1; 9 FWs left.

FWs charge.

Guardsmen attack. 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/6 x 10 = about 2. 7 FWs left.

FWs attack. 1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/6 x 14 = about 2.

Result: 7 FWs left, 9 Guardsmen left/ Combat tied.

10 Kroot vs. 10 Guardsmen

Guardsmen overwatch. 1/6 x 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/72 = 20 = 100/72; let's round up to 2. 2 Kroot dead.

Kroot charge.

Kroot attack. 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 x 16 = 32/9 = 3.5, round up to 4. 4 Guardsmen die, 6 left.

Guardsmen attack. 1/2 x 1/2 x 5/6 = 5/24 x 6 = 30/24, round down (to nearest) = 1. 1 Kroot dead.

Result: 7 Kroot left, 6 Guardsmen left. Guardsmen lose combat by 3.

Was that with more Ork-like kroot or the current kroot? Cause personally the few times i charge with firewarriors they do more damage than that even against marines. They still swing twice on the charge since they arent denied charge bonuses (which would be kinda fluffy if i must reluctantly admit)

Omg, Just accept it man. GW nerfed these old models so you would want to buy the new models. It happens to every army. I been playing chaos space marines and they did nerf bat the defiler, daemon prince, even the drake. Its a pay to win game. If you want to win, sell these subpar models and use the beer money to buy the new op models to win. I have been in proposed rules for CSM and although dakka comes up with some good homebrew fixes, no one will let you use these rules unless they are ultra casual. So stop crying "My favorite models are shelved" and go build yourself an op imba flavor of the month tau army.

"GW nerfed these old models..."

Um, they were never good. Literally. Never. Ever. Good.

We never had an urge to buy Vespid because they have always been utter trash. GW does this sometimes where they release a unit that sucks ass so bad nobody buys it but they either never fix them or take a lifetime to do so.
Kroot were only "good" because they could take an assault better than firewarriors, but again the moment we could take Orks instead we ditched the kroot.

They never got nerfed. You cant nerf something thats useless to begin with to make us not want to buy them when we already DONT want to buy them lol

 Filch wrote:
Omg, Just accept it man. GW nerfed these old models so you would want to buy the new models. It happens to every army. I been playing chaos space marines and they did nerf bat the defiler, daemon prince, even the drake. Its a pay to win game. If you want to win, sell these subpar models and use the beer money to buy the new op models to win. I have been in proposed rules for CSM and although dakka comes up with some good homebrew fixes, no one will let you use these rules unless they are ultra casual. So stop crying "My favorite models are shelved" and go build yourself an op imba flavor of the month tau army.

This from the guy who supposedly bought 5 imperial knights and can't figure out how to win with them against Tau, lol. Pay to win only goes so far, and you clearly don't know how half the units in this game work given your post history.

 Filch wrote:
Omg, Just accept it man. GW nerfed these old models so you would want to buy the new models. It happens to every army. I been playing chaos space marines and they did nerf bat the defiler, daemon prince, even the drake. Its a pay to win game. If you want to win, sell these subpar models and use the beer money to buy the new op models to win. I have been in proposed rules for CSM and although dakka comes up with some good homebrew fixes, no one will let you use these rules unless they are ultra casual. So stop crying "My favorite models are shelved" and go build yourself an op imba flavor of the month tau army.

While this makes sense short term, in that they change the power dynamic each codex to make more money while shaking up the meta, it doesn't make sense in the long term.

The last time I played 40k, it was back during the Eye of Terror campaigns, which I think was 3rd to 4th edition. I have recently come back so I didn't really own a lot of models, and went out and got the basic stuff that's good for Tau (Crisis Suits, a Riptide, and some Fire Warriors), it's not a large force, but it's enough to get 1k+ points. Now I'm sure I'm not the only one returning, in fact part of why I came back to the game was because a friend was getting back into it, asked if I was interested, and so forth. This is important because after this codex, I'll have my full army, and sure things will come out in the next codex that I'd consider buying as in the example of the Ghostkeel this codex, but there will be this giant amount of stuff I and many other players simply don't own, such as Vespids, Krootox, Kroot Hounds, etc.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there now, who don't own a Krootox or Vespid that started in 6th edition or after, and never had a reason to buy one. I'm also sure there are people like you suggested who sold their models that became obsolete that would re-buy them if they became powerful. So yea, there should be a natural ebb and flow to how armies function between codices, and we saw that with Stealth Suits getting a buff in multiple detachments, now they need to fix all those units that haven't been playable for a period of time now, or they're losing a ton of money on product they already have on hand. Heck, I'm still looking for even the smallest excuse to pick up both Krootox or Vespids :/.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Omg, Just accept it man. GW nerfed these old models so you would want to buy the new models. It happens to every army. I been playing chaos space marines and they did nerf bat the defiler, daemon prince, even the drake. Its a pay to win game. If you want to win, sell these subpar models and use the beer money to buy the new op models to win. I have been in proposed rules for CSM and although dakka comes up with some good homebrew fixes, no one will let you use these rules unless they are ultra casual. So stop crying "My favorite models are shelved" and go build yourself an op imba flavor of the month tau army.

This from the guy who supposedly bought 5 imperial knights and can't figure out how to win with them against Tau, lol. Pay to win only goes so far, and you clearly don't know how half the units in this game work given your post history.

Look here. 5 IK dont win you the game like demi company, decurion, eldar scatbike spam, etc... They game is about scoring points on maelstrom and 5 IK are not going to do that very well. On top of that 5 IK are ultra easy to kill. Eldar got scat bikes glancing the side armor av12 with so many shots from scat bikes. Necrons jhave lucky gauss. Demi company marines can bring so many meltas and lascannons. Tau got that ghost keel shooting my rear armor and riptides laughing at my battle cannon with their invul save and fnp. Eldar can field 5 wraith knights and have troops because they are undercosted op cheese. Daemon can summon and summom to dominate the board.