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There's a few guns I feel we don't give enough credit, such as Autocannons, Stormbolters and the like. I think these guns were made back when S 5 was a big deal, and it shows nowadays. I'm not saying that they are bad now, but a part of me thinks that they might be a bit too weak for the current meta. So, ideas abound.

I really like the idea behind the Stormbolter- It's a shame, really, that it's such a weak weapon, though. Therefor, I'd give it four shots, but at a range of 18''. This makes it an assault weapon to be reckoned with, and makes a hell of a lot more sense than the current "5 pt for another shot at a longer range than usual". Also, finally Termies can actually be a ranged threat.

When I say Autocannon, I really mean the gun on the Predator. For the Dreadnoughts and the Heavy Weapon Teams, the current stats make perfect sense, but somehow it feels weak as a main gun on a battle tank. I think a new rule (e.g Predator Loading Mechanism USR or something like that) would be a good idea, allowing it, and maybe the Assault Cannon on the Baal, to shoot two additional shots than on the standard profile. Arguably, you could also give it AP 3, since, you know, it's a tank cannon. I don't care how powerful the suit of personal armour is, a tank round that size will pulverize your innards or bone regardless of any plates.

When talking about standard weapons that are getting outdated, are anyone annoyed with the Power Weapons? Not so much the Sword, but why is it that a Mace, the weapon you'd usually use to break armour, is AP 4? And why is a Power Fist just a Thunder Hammer with less pezzaz?

Thoughts?

I agree something needs to be done to Storm Bolters. Perhaps more shots at a 18" like you said, but I'm not sure that just giving them more shots will do much. S4 shooting is unimpressive these days when StrD is being passed out like candy. Perhaps bump it up a point in strength?

 War Kitten wrote:
I agree something needs to be done to Storm Bolters. Perhaps more shots at a 18" like you said, but I'm not sure that just giving them more shots will do much. S4 shooting is unimpressive these days when StrD is being passed out like candy. Perhaps bump it up a point in strength?

I think that would ruin the idea of it being a sub-machine Bolter. It doesn't have to be good against things that aren't normally threatened by a Bolter, just better against the same kind of target.

Beside, four pops against some unit and then a charge is nothing to sneeze at.

I wouldn't mind Storm Bolters having a high rate of fire. And then Autocannons could gain strength, maybe? Autocannons are kind of meant to kill vehicles, so AP would be desirable but then you loose out on the thing that kind of makes autocannons statistically unique and makes them better at MEQs and TEQs, which isn't really anything we would want.

Storm Bolters could become Salvo 2/4, making it so relentless platforms like termies make the most out of it and gives them that extra edge of dakka to make up for their cost being more than double normal marines but with no real increase in shooting output. Also gives strike squads a little more oomph during the shooting phase.

I agree with autocannons needing to be stronger on vehicle platforms, or at least their fire-output. You can see this with Ork vehicles as well, since no one ever takes big gunz on battlewagons and I always found that the KMK deserved to be a large blast version on the Morkanaut given its bigger size and power source. The predator autocannon should take after the sicaran a bit and become heavy 4 with rending. This way it has a decent rate of fire while also having some potential anti-armour capability without infringing too far on the TL-lascannon builds.

I'd actually vote for Storm Bolters to get the old dual-profile treatment: Assault 2 or Heavy 4, while keeping their current range. This makes them interesting for folks that might want to assault, too.

Standard autocannons are probably fine, but for the one on the Predator, I'd do what 30k Predators get: make it Heavy 4. Rending might be decent, too, but I think just having four shots would make it pretty good against light armor without stepping on the toes of the lascannon version. (Plus, you can still add on some lascannons if you need them)

Assault 3 Storm Bolters.

When it comes to Power Weapons, the only two weapons I really mind is the Power Maul and the Power Fist.

The thing I don't like about the Power Maul is that it's basically extremely strong against one kind of unit, but unusable in all other instances, where most Power weapons are sorta general use. Also, why is it that the weapon you'd usually use to break armour and bones is the weakest in AP?

I'd take away the two points of S, leaving it at S - , and leave the AP, but give it Rending in addition to Concussive. I think that shows the effect a good hit with a mace can do to innards, but that it can't just break Power Armour by itself.

When it comes to Power Fists, I mostly hate the fact that it's basically the Thunderhammer with less style, so I'd rather reflect the fact that it's more flexible than most weapons.

I think it should have two profiles: Standard and Charged. Standard would be S + 1, AP 3, Concussive, but not specialist weapon, as it isn't powered, while the Charged statline would be S x2, AP 2, Concussive, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, as we know it.

Maybe stormbolters could be a salvo variant where they are 2/4 but keep their range and assault profile otherwise. I feel power weapons (and most likely a large number of melee weapons) should be 5 points cheaper. Heavy bolters should at the very least have pinning (sniper rifles should have that back too).

 NorseSig wrote:
Maybe stormbolters could be a salvo variant where they are 2/4 but keep their range and assault profile otherwise. I feel power weapons (and most likely a large number of melee weapons) should be 5 points cheaper. Heavy bolters should at the very least have pinning (sniper rifles should have that back too).

I agree with this actually. I think Heavy Bolters should fire more shots, 3 just doesn't feel like it does enough for me.

What kind of thoughts do you want when I'm site I've seen you respond to threads that talked extensively about assault3 s4 storm bolters? It would be sort of more earnest or in good faith to address the kind of issues that are pretty widely aired.

I think dark lances, lascannons,regular bolters, heavy bolters, and splinter rifles all have problems too, and a special rule for predator auto loaders doesn't fix that, neither do a dozen special rules each for a separate platform and weapon combination.

en it comes to Power Fists, I mostly hate the fact that it's basically the Thunderhammer with less style, so I'd rather reflect the fact that it's more flexible than most weapons

I think it should have two profiles: Standard and Charged. Standard would be S + 1, AP 3, Concussive, but not specialist weapon, as it isn't powered, while the Charged statline would be S x2, AP 2, Concussive, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, as we know it.

Powerfists are not concussive.

There's nothing you can do to fix the stormbolter, given that the heavy bolter is also a useless weapon at this point.

Okay, guys. Heavy Bolter. AP 4. S 4. Salvo 3/5. I solved the world guys.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, guys. Heavy Bolter. AP 4. S 4. Salvo 3/5. I solved the world guys.

Still useless. S6 or bust. You have to keep up with the Eldar or lose. If your "heavy" weapon can't be used to glance out vehicles, it's not a heavy weapon in 7th.

Just make it 4 shots, that's the same thing they did to burst cannons. 5/4 at 36" is great against anything less than MEQs (gaurd, tau, ect). And that's the role they are made to fill, anti-infantry.

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, guys. Heavy Bolter. AP 4. S 4. Salvo 3/5. I solved the world guys.

Still useless. S6 or bust. You have to keep up with the Eldar or lose. If your "heavy" weapon can't be used to glance out vehicles, it's not a heavy weapon in 7th.

Do we want that? Do we want to go to other people's cheese to fight cheese?

I dunno, I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter being a weapon that actually shoots more bullets.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Just make it 4 shots, that's the same thing they did to burst cannons. 5/4 at 36" is great against anything less than MEQs (gaurd, tau, ect). And that's the role they are made to fill, anti-infantry.

Makes it great against units that don't matter. Imperials need ways to deal with scatterbikes and Riptides, not another way to kill firewarriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, guys. Heavy Bolter. AP 4. S 4. Salvo 3/5. I solved the world guys.

Still useless. S6 or bust. You have to keep up with the Eldar or lose. If your "heavy" weapon can't be used to glance out vehicles, it's not a heavy weapon in 7th.

Do we want that? Do we want to go to other people's cheese to fight cheese?

I dunno, I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter being a weapon that actually shoots more bullets.

Yeah, we want that, because that's the only way to actually put up a fight. The Eldar aren't going to self-nerf.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, guys. Heavy Bolter. AP 4. S 4. Salvo 3/5. I solved the world guys.

Still useless. S6 or bust. You have to keep up with the Eldar or lose. If your "heavy" weapon can't be used to glance out vehicles, it's not a heavy weapon in 7th.

Do we want that? Do we want to go to other people's cheese to fight cheese?

I dunno, I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter being a weapon that actually shoots more bullets.

Well, that's exactly what it is. If the bolter is an assault rifle, the HB is an LMG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Just make it 4 shots, that's the same thing they did to burst cannons. 5/4 at 36" is great against anything less than MEQs (gaurd, tau, ect). And that's the role they are made to fill, anti-infantry.

Makes it great against units that don't matter. Imperials need ways to deal with scatterbikes and Riptides, not another way to kill firewarriors.

Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want. HB is anti-infantry, don't try to make it more than that. If you are that concerned with riptides, as an imperial you have access to the best anti-riptide weapons sans D, grav weapons.

Having more useless shots is just that, useless. There is also the compounded problem that Imperial platforms for heavy weapons are consistently inferior.

"Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want."

No truer words. There is no role for a heavy bolter in an Imperial heavy slot.

Yeah, I'm not trying to make the Heavy Bolter an Anti Everything gun. It just kinda need to be better at that job by a small margin.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Yeah, I'm not trying to make the Heavy Bolter an Anti Everything gun. It just kinda need to be better at that job by a small margin.

Well, technically, there are targets the scatterlaser struggles against. It's just SO GOOD against so many things. The heavy bolter is not really good against anything in the game, even its intended targets because it trades ROF and S for AP 4. AP 4 that is rendered moot most of the time by cover. 7th ed is about wound generation in most cases, not AP of said wounds.

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Yeah, I'm not trying to make the Heavy Bolter an Anti Everything gun. It just kinda need to be better at that job by a small margin.

Well, technically, there are targets the scatterlaser struggles against. It's just SO GOOD against so many things. The heavy bolter is not really good against anything in the game, even its intended targets because it trades ROF and S for AP 4. AP 4 that is rendered moot most of the time by cover. 7th ed is about wound generation in most cases, not AP of said wounds.

True dat - So if you made the shots S 5, AP 5 instead, but let it shoot, like, Salvo 3/6.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Yeah, I'm not trying to make the Heavy Bolter an Anti Everything gun. It just kinda need to be better at that job by a small margin.

Well, technically, there are targets the scatterlaser struggles against. It's just SO GOOD against so many things. The heavy bolter is not really good against anything in the game, even its intended targets because it trades ROF and S for AP 4. AP 4 that is rendered moot most of the time by cover. 7th ed is about wound generation in most cases, not AP of said wounds.

True dat - So if you made the shots S 5, AP 5 instead, but let it shoot, like, Salvo 3/6.

Hmmm. That's an interesting proposal. Of course, at that point, the assault cannon should have like 18 shots, since a multi-barreled autocannon fires about three times faster than a machinegun.

Martel732 wrote:
Having more useless shots is just that, useless. There is also the compounded problem that Imperial platforms for heavy weapons are consistently inferior.

"Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want."

No truer words. There is no role for a heavy bolter in an Imperial heavy slot.

But it's not useless, it's anti-infantry. The problem is you are comparing it to something that is way to good for it's cost and availability, the scatter-laser.

And you can also drop their cost, and the cost of the base units. But making the HB S6 isn't going ti solve anything, and will simply contribute to the power creep.

edit: it's also a probelm with the base game, med S high RoF weapons are better against vehicles than single shot anti-vehicle weapons because of the horribly deigned HP system.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Having more useless shots is just that, useless. There is also the compounded problem that Imperial platforms for heavy weapons are consistently inferior.

"Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want."

No truer words. There is no role for a heavy bolter in an Imperial heavy slot.

But it's not useless, it's anti-infantry. The problem is you are comparing it to something that is way to good for it's cost and availability, the scatter-laser.

And you can also drop their cost, and the cost of the base units. But making the HB S6 isn't going ti solve anything, and will simply contribute to the power creep.

edit: it's also a probelm with the base game, med S high RoF weapons are better against vehicles than single shot anti-vehicle weapons because of the horribly deigned HP system.

I think the heavy bolter at most should be salvo 3/5 pinning. That would make it decent at anti infantry.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Having more useless shots is just that, useless. There is also the compounded problem that Imperial platforms for heavy weapons are consistently inferior.

"Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want."

No truer words. There is no role for a heavy bolter in an Imperial heavy slot.

But it's not useless, it's anti-infantry. The problem is you are comparing it to something that is way to good for it's cost and availability, the scatter-laser.

And you can also drop their cost, and the cost of the base units. But making the HB S6 isn't going ti solve anything, and will simply contribute to the power creep.

edit: it's also a probelm with the base game, med S high RoF weapons are better against vehicles than single shot anti-vehicle weapons because of the horribly deigned HP system.

I think the heavy bolter at most should be salvo 3/5 pinning. That would make it decent at anti infantry.

I guess. I would still never use it given a choice.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Having more useless shots is just that, useless. There is also the compounded problem that Imperial platforms for heavy weapons are consistently inferior.

"Then, shockingly enough, the heavy bolter is not what you want."

No truer words. There is no role for a heavy bolter in an Imperial heavy slot.

But it's not useless, it's anti-infantry. The problem is you are comparing it to something that is way to good for it's cost and availability, the scatter-laser.

And you can also drop their cost, and the cost of the base units. But making the HB S6 isn't going ti solve anything, and will simply contribute to the power creep.

edit: it's also a probelm with the base game, med S high RoF weapons are better against vehicles than single shot anti-vehicle weapons because of the horribly deigned HP system.

I think the heavy bolter at most should be salvo 3/5 pinning. That would make it decent at anti infantry.

18"/36"? Or perhaps 24"/36"?

 The Wise Dane wrote:
When it comes to Power Weapons, the only two weapons I really mind is the Power Maul and the Power Fist.

The thing I don't like about the Power Maul is that it's basically extremely strong against one kind of unit, but unusable in all other instances, where most Power weapons are sorta general use. Also, why is it that the weapon you'd usually use to break armour and bones is the weakest in AP?

I'd take away the two points of S, leaving it at S - , and leave the AP, but give it Rending in addition to Concussive. I think that shows the effect a good hit with a mace can do to innards, but that it can't just break Power Armour by itself.

When it comes to Power Fists, I mostly hate the fact that it's basically the Thunderhammer with less style, so I'd rather reflect the fact that it's more flexible than most weapons.

I think it should have two profiles: Standard and Charged. Standard would be S + 1, AP 3, Concussive, but not specialist weapon, as it isn't powered, while the Charged statline would be S x2, AP 2, Concussive, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, as we know it.

The power maul is ineffective because 40k does not have rules for internal damage or broken bones. The point of a solid slab of metal as a weapon was to render the armor ineffective by transferring kinetic energy through it to the opponent, maybe denting the armor but causing bones to be broken or internal damage.

Storm Bolter should be assault 3 - cannot shoot and chrge with salvo weapons.
Heavy Bolter should be 5/4 salvo 3/5 and be free to devastators and 2 points in a heavy slot for tacticals.

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Yeah, I'm not trying to make the Heavy Bolter an Anti Everything gun. It just kinda need to be better at that job by a small margin.

Well, technically, there are targets the scatterlaser struggles against. It's just SO GOOD against so many things. The heavy bolter is not really good against anything in the game, even its intended targets because it trades ROF and S for AP 4. AP 4 that is rendered moot most of the time by cover. 7th ed is about wound generation in most cases, not AP of said wounds.

True dat - So if you made the shots S 5, AP 5 instead, but let it shoot, like, Salvo 3/6.

Hmmm. That's an interesting proposal. Of course, at that point, the assault cannon should have like 18 shots, since a multi-barreled autocannon fires about three times faster than a machinegun.

Ofc, the scatter laser is a multi barreled laser cannon, especially the classic kind:

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt403eldarwarwalkerwd1028806.jpg

So I know you are mainly just trying combinations of numbers but it seems like four shots is kind of a maximum for anything less than a Russ main weapon or a forge world contemptor dreadnought.

Bolter weapons as a whole need something to make them stand out. Gauss can glance vehicles to submission (though everyone on here grossly overestimates how well it works), Eldar get Bladestorm, which is Rending on things that matter (since Monstrous Creatures are more dangerous than vehicles) and Tau just get much better range on their guns.

So maybe there's a way to create a "Bolt" rule, but as it stands:
Pistol stays the same
Bolter stays the same
Storm Bolter is S5 AP5
Heavy Bolter is S5 AP4 Heavy 4 or 5
THEN the Bolt rule is peppered in. Either that, or we make it so Legendary Marksman is a universal special rule for all Marines, and all Marines standing still gain Rending. Of course, that leads to the discussion of how to differentiate the Raptors.