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This is an offshoot of the Forgehammer WIP I am working on but one thing that has generally been noted in past discussions is how the game doesn't have the sort of granularity that makes really high Weapon Skills or Ballistic Skills better in the long run. As a rule, having BS 5 with one of many reroll powers (Preferred Enemy, Guide/Prescience, an appropriate Warlord Trait, etc) is superior to having BS 6 through 9. Having low WS isn't too much of a penalty likewise, while high WS doesn't give any true benefits over your opponent.

Several other threads have discussed using D10s for 40k instead but not everyone has a pile of them sitting around. The proposal is simple in theory, but would naturally require a lot of rebalancing to make it work. The main question is would such changes be workable, or is the "exploding attacks/confirm hits" mechanic too cumbersome to work alongside the normal game?

Shooting and close combat use the same To-Hit chart. To hit in melee, compare your weapon skill against your opponent's weapon skill. To hit at range, compare your ballistic skill against your opponent's initiative.

If your WS/BS is equal to your opponent's WS/I, you hit on a 4+.
If greater by 1, hit on 3+. If less by 1, hit on 5+.
If greater by 2, hit on 2+. If less by 2, hit on 6.
If greater by 3, hit on 2+, and make a second round of attacks hitting on 6. If less by 3, hit on 6s, and those 6s hit on 2s.
If greater by 4, hit on 2+, and make a second round of attacks hitting on 5+. If less by 4, hit on 6s, and those 6s hit on 3+s.

Etc.

Supporting this would best be done by removing any and all other "grants rerolls on attacks" abilities. Be it making Twin-Linked to allow an extra shot, merging Hatred and Preferred Enemy to make "triggers on 6" abilities like Tesla/Rending/etc trigger on 5s instead, etc.

As a side effect to it all, one could replace "cover saves" and "models charging through" cover to make it so "unengaged models in cover have +(cover rating) initiative against ranged attacks and charging models."

the problem with comparing weapon skill is that having higher weapon skill makes you hit more, and be hit less. This is kept pretty small in the regular chart,with your chart it becomes huge. The difference of one weapon skill is now massive, a difference of two is totally fatal. The people who benefit most from this are special characters, and they are already generally super killy, and hard to kill in cc. This just exacerbates there strengths.

Do demon princes need to have super invisibility in close combat? They are already cc monsters this just makes them almost unkillable in cc.

Should a phoenix lord be immune to ork boys?

Was the single wound fire warriors would traditionally deal too much?

What issue in the game is this table meant to deal with?

Lilith Hesper-something or other would love this chart

 coblen wrote:
the problem with comparing weapon skill is that having higher weapon skill makes you hit more, and be hit less. This is kept pretty small in the regular chart,with your chart it becomes huge. The difference of one weapon skill is now massive, a difference of two is totally fatal. The people who benefit most from this are special characters, and they are already generally super killy, and hard to kill in cc. This just exacerbates there strengths.

Do demon princes need to have super invisibility in close combat? They are already cc monsters this just makes them almost unkillable in cc.

Should a phoenix lord be immune to ork boys?

Was the single wound fire warriors would traditionally deal too much?

What issue in the game is this table meant to deal with?

No specific issue so much as making it easier to granularize melee skill. Many super melee units really aren't worth taking but there are other issues that cause that (restrictive rules for assaulting from transports, random assault ranges, no consolidate after melee, etc.). This is more about making high ws a really nice thing to have, especially since the models that have it pay through the roof for it.

Depending on your fluff versus gameplay preferences, sure it would make sense for a Phoenix Lord to be able to table his own points cost worth of Ork Boyz. Maugan Ra did solo a hive fleet Tendril after all...
The option could be modified accordingly, so rather than it being "for every point" for to-hit penalties, it could be "for every two points."

Shooting against initiative has some considerations attached. One is that initiative normally does not have degrees. Either you go before, simultaneously, or after, and it doesn't mater if your racial initiative is 4, 5, or 6 if the enemy is initiative 2. This is different, which by itself is not a bad or good thing.

The other is whatever "fluff" effect it is meant to achieve. It's one thing to say that in a gun fight, an aspect warrior or gene stealer is better at briefly ducking out of cover to evade an enemy he knows is trying to shoot him, and another her thing to say that being faster allows him to avoid a heavy weapon attack from 40" across the board that he had no way of knowing was paying any attention to him. You might like to differentiate between the two.

There are also many vehicles with no initiative.

As for the chart, if you do increments of 2, then it may not be useful to have rerolls/extra attacks involved because an attacker of skill 9 would be least skilled model to benefit against ws or i 4. It just might be too obscure of a detail.

You should also think about staggering the effect. I.e. the level that gets an improved roll to-hit would not also get a defensive bonus, because it is an extreme jump to have both.

Thanks pelican, I see your point.

Regarding Initiative: It's an abstraction, but Initiative would represent a catchall mix of dodging, maintaining a low profile, bob-and-weaving, hitting the deck as a shell whizzes past, etc. For vehicles (which would use the same initiative as their main race, barring some exceptions; Longstrike would ideally have Init 4 even though the normal Tau vehicle would be Init 2), it would be a mix of evasive driving, not presenting any good angles/exposed weak spots, kicking up dust, etc, though it would be preferable to have positive to-hit modifiers against larger vehicles. (+1 BS vs vehicles/mcs, +2 vs supers/gargs?).

Regarding Extreme Differences: A Bloodthirster versus a Blind Conscript is noteworthy, so I see your point. It would be best to cap the difference. At worst, a unit will only hit on 6s, and have to roll 6s to confirm those hits. At best, a unit makes twice its normal number of attacks, all attacks hitting on 2+.

Regarding "One Bonus Or The Other": I contemplated it, but it would make Ballistic Skill bonuses wonkier, and I feel that a two-point difference in weapon skill between units is that level where it becomes mostly mop-up, where you have Khorne Berserkers tearing Guardsmen to shreds, etc. Making the to-hit bonus "For every point of advantage", and the to-hit penalty "for every two points of disadvantage" seems more right.

The present CC table is pathetic but some people like it and odly enough are often the ones fine with the bonuses for high BS- long discussion here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/652245.page

Why is it so hard for weapon masters to hit in close combat

I am not talking about WS5 versus WS4 or similar match ups but when you have WS 7,8,9 or even 10 versus 3, 2 or even 1 and you only hit on a 3+ - seriously?

So a Avatar of the Eldar God of War, or a thousand year old Succubus who lives for close combat or a Greater Daemon of Khorne tries to hit a Gretchin and only does so on a 3+ - sooo very annoying.

If you have high BS you are rewarded by 2+ and even re-rolls - but high WS is just poor.

I really don't see any reason why if you have double or more WS than your opponent you don't hit on 2+?