Possible for veterans of the Old War (Chaos Space Marines) to never rise in rank?

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**Chaospling**

We're used to agree that old Space Marines are quite big because of the nature of their bodies, which means that they'll continue to grow forever, albeit slower and slower. Would you say that in the 41st Millennium, there exist Chaos Space Marines which are maybe several thousand years old but still haven't risen in whatever hierarchy his warband has? If yes, shouldn't this be quite the huge Chaos Space Marines which dwarf, for example, young fresh loyalist Space Marines?

Now I come to think of it - what's the argument for it being more common that there are old Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the long War) than old loyal Space Marines?

Edit: Had trouble to word the headline correctly.

**Steinwand**

I'm not familiar with anything saying that a Space Marine would continue growing forever due to their biology, but I have seen several places referring to how some Chaos Marines, and in some cases normal humans who turn to Chaos, growing in size from being infused with demonic energies.
The reason why there are more Veterans of the Long War is due to the fact that time flows differently, more than likely erratically, in the Warp. As such, there are 10,000 year old Chaos Marines who fought in the Siege of Terra.

**Iron_Captain**

Space Marines continue to grow? That is the first time I hear this. They aren't Orks!

**locarno24**

Exactly. Many of them aren't 10,000 years old - to them, the heresy may be a few perceived centuries ago - or a thousand times longer than that.

Equally, we don't necessarily know what proportion of 'the line' of the legions are original traitors.

However, Astartes are functionally immortal - they don't really die of old age short of being killed. The difference is that a suitably badass 400 year old veteran is still susceptible to, you know, anti-tank weaponry and nukes.

Once a chaos marine reaches a certain level of favour from the chaos gods, he can transcend even the superhuman 'limits' which normally apply to marines....which increases his chances of not dying.

**Engrenages**

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. Many of them aren't 10,000 years old - to them, the heresy may be a few perceived centuries ago - or a thousand times longer than that.

Equally, we don't necessarily know what proportion of 'the line' of the legions are original traitors.

However, Astartes are functionally immortal - they don't really die of old age short of being killed. The difference is that a suitably badass 400 year old veteran is still susceptible to, you know, anti-tank weaponry and nukes.

Once a chaos marine reaches a certain level of favour from the chaos gods, he can transcend even the superhuman 'limits' which normally apply to marines....which increases his chances of not dying.

I don't think we know if Space Marines are effectively immortal, we only know that none has ever died of old age. But I recall having read somewhere that the Primarchs had a planned lifespan of around 1500 standard years. I can't really imagine Primarchs being mortals, but beings created as inferior version of themselves being immortals.

**Grey Templar**

I have never heard of any time stamp being given on the Primarchs, or Space Marines. And they certainly don't grow for ever.

That said, due to the time altering properties of the warp, not all traitor marines in the EoT will be 10,000 years old from their perspective. For some it may have only been yesterday, for others it might have been a few thousand years.

As for there not being any loyalist marines, who aren't in dreadnoughts, dating back to the Heresy that is due to 40k being in a constant state of war. The odds are simply stacked against them surviving more than 300ish years, that's why individuals like Lysander, Dante, Logan, and Cassius are considered unique. They've managed to live such a long time without dying, due to either luck or skill or probably both. If you are engaged in war for your entire life, chances are you will eventually get killed by something.

**Animus**

Engrenages wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. Many of them aren't 10,000 years old - to them, the heresy may be a few perceived centuries ago - or a thousand times longer than that.

Equally, we don't necessarily know what proportion of 'the line' of the legions are original traitors.

However, Astartes are functionally immortal - they don't really die of old age short of being killed. The difference is that a suitably badass 400 year old veteran is still susceptible to, you know, anti-tank weaponry and nukes.

Once a chaos marine reaches a certain level of favour from the chaos gods, he can transcend even the superhuman 'limits' which normally apply to marines....which increases his chances of not dying.

I don't think we know if Space Marines are effectively immortal, we only know that none has ever died of old age. But I recall having read somewhere that the Primarchs had a planned lifespan of around 1500 standard years. I can't really imagine Primarchs being mortals, but beings created as inferior version of themselves being immortals.

They're not immortal, they get old and die. This fact is upsetting to Fabulous Bill.

**Grey Templar**

I suppose you can provide an example of a marine who died of old age then?

**Animus**

Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose you can provide an example of a marine who died of old age then?

An Iron Warrior named Tavarre.

**Accolade**

Not necessarily death from old age, but Iacton Qruze in the Horus Heresy series displayed significant signs of aging throughout the novels, including lined skin, white hair, and a crotchety demeanor (although this might have been just his personality). Chaplain Cassius also appears to have aged significantly, where the bionics he is equipped with seem to do the majority of keeping him alive (one would surmise that a younger, more fit marine would be able to recover the damage over time).

I think death from old age is kept purposely ambiguous, as it diminishes the stature of space marines and sets limits to their appearances throughout the timeline. The Warp is there to facilitate time bending, but it only do so much for non-Chaos forces (whose extended lifespans are explained by "magic").

**dusara217**

Animus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose you can provide an example of a marine who died of old age then?

An Iron Warrior named Tavarre.

I can't find him on Lexicanum, you mind citing a source?

**dekinrie**

the nightlord books are set in present 40k but only a few centuries have passed for them since the seige of terra with them raiding out of the eye

**Animus**

dusara217 wrote:
Animus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose you can provide an example of a marine who died of old age then?

An Iron Warrior named Tavarre.

I can't find him on Lexicanum, you mind citing a source?

The Iron Within, I believe.

**Chaospling**

About the continued growth, I forgot that I had the information from some unofficial fanfiction. The reason behind this fiction was to explain the slight height difference between Space Marines in Power armour and Terminator armour besides the armour itself. So I guess it's a "never mind" then...

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Rising in rank for Chaos Astartes is pretty much based either on ambition or necessity. So if a Marine had no ambition to rise past where he was then, yes its possible for him to not rise in rank.

Though that's where necessity would come in. If you are the most experienced Marine in your squad, and you have a bunch of rookies that know nothing, depending on how Chaosy you guys are, they might look to that Marine for leadership, until they kill him if he still has no ambition.

**Grey Templar**

Animus wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Animus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose you can provide an example of a marine who died of old age then?

An Iron Warrior named Tavarre.

I can't find him on Lexicanum, you mind citing a source?

The Iron Within, I believe.

Ok, can you quote the relevant text? Because I suspect there were extenuating circumstances.

**Animus**

Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, can you quote the relevant text? Because I suspect there were extenuating circumstances.

Not at the moment. Though I do recall it literally says he dies of old age.

**GKTiberius**

Animus wrote:

They're not immortal, they get old and die. This fact is upsetting to Fabulous Bill.

I'm fairly certain Bile is more concerned with the fact that his personal gene seed is flawed and prone to tumors. He is looking to extend his own life, not necessarily all Astartes.

**Animus**

GKTiberius wrote:
Animus wrote:

They're not immortal, they get old and die. This fact is upsetting to Fabulous Bill.

I'm fairly certain Bile is more concerned with the fact that his personal gene seed is flawed and prone to tumors. He is looking to extend his own life, not necessarily all Astartes.

He's not all about himself. He was trying to clone the primarchs and even created a new race of superior humans.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Grey Templar wrote:

Ok, can you quote the relevant text? Because I suspect there were extenuating circumstances.

Shamelessly stolen from "The Reaper" on a Spacebattles thread.

"‘Don’t talk to me about failure and lack of courage, Dantioch. You excel in both,’ Krendl spat. He bobbed his head at Serapis, the splinters of frag still embedded in his face-flesh glinting in the chamber light. ‘That is how the great Barabas Dantioch came to be left guarding such a worthless deadrock. Lord Perturabo’s favourite here came to lose Krak Fiorina, Stratopolae and the fortress world of Gholghis to the Vulpa Straits hrud migration.’
As Krendl growled his narrative, Dantioch remembered the last, dark days on Gholghis. The hrud xenos filth. The infestation of the unseen. The waiting and the dying, as Dantioch’s garrison turned to dust and bones, their armour rusting, bolters jamming and fortress crumbling about them. Only then, after the intense entropic field created by the migratory hrud swarms had aged stone and flesh to ruin, did the rachidian beasts creep out of every nook and crevice to attack, stabbing and slicing with their venomous claws.
Most of all, Dantioch remembered waiting for the Stormbird to lift the survivors out of the remains of Gholghis: Sergeant Zolan, Vastopol the warrior-poet and Techmarine Tavarre. Zolan’s hearts stopped beating aboard the Stormbird, minutes after extraction. Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne. Vastopol and the Warsmith had considered themselves comparatively fortunate but both had been left crippled with their aged, superhuman bodies.
‘He then thought it wise,’ Krendl continued with acidic disdain, ‘to question his primarch’s prosecution of the hrud extermination campaign. No doubt as a way to excuse his loss of half a Grand Company, rather than laying the blame where it really belonged: the Emperor’s bungled attempt at galactic conquest and his own failed part in that. The IV Legion spread out across the stars. A myriad of tiny garrisons holding a tattered Compliance together in the wake of a blind Crusade. Our once proud Iron Warriors, reduced to planetary turnkeys.’
‘The primarch was wrong,’ Dantioch said, shaking his iron mask. ‘The extermination campaign prompted the migration rather than ending it. Perturabo claims the hrud cleansed from the galaxy but, if that is the case, what is quietly wiping out Compliance worlds on the Koranado Drift?’Pg.493 Age of Darkness"

**Animus**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

Ok, can you quote the relevant text? Because I suspect there were extenuating circumstances.

Shamelessly stolen from "The Reaper" on a Spacebattles thread.

"‘Don’t talk to me about failure and lack of courage, Dantioch. You excel in both,’ Krendl spat. He bobbed his head at Serapis, the splinters of frag still embedded in his face-flesh glinting in the chamber light. ‘That is how the great Barabas Dantioch came to be left guarding such a worthless deadrock. Lord Perturabo’s favourite here came to lose Krak Fiorina, Stratopolae and the fortress world of Gholghis to the Vulpa Straits hrud migration.’
As Krendl growled his narrative, Dantioch remembered the last, dark days on Gholghis. The hrud xenos filth. The infestation of the unseen. The waiting and the dying, as Dantioch’s garrison turned to dust and bones, their armour rusting, bolters jamming and fortress crumbling about them. Only then, after the intense entropic field created by the migratory hrud swarms had aged stone and flesh to ruin, did the rachidian beasts creep out of every nook and crevice to attack, stabbing and slicing with their venomous claws.
Most of all, Dantioch remembered waiting for the Stormbird to lift the survivors out of the remains of Gholghis: Sergeant Zolan, Vastopol the warrior-poet and Techmarine Tavarre. Zolan’s hearts stopped beating aboard the Stormbird, minutes after extraction. Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne. Vastopol and the Warsmith had considered themselves comparatively fortunate but both had been left crippled with their aged, superhuman bodies.
‘He then thought it wise,’ Krendl continued with acidic disdain, ‘to question his primarch’s prosecution of the hrud extermination campaign. No doubt as a way to excuse his loss of half a Grand Company, rather than laying the blame where it really belonged: the Emperor’s bungled attempt at galactic conquest and his own failed part in that. The IV Legion spread out across the stars. A myriad of tiny garrisons holding a tattered Compliance together in the wake of a blind Crusade. Our once proud Iron Warriors, reduced to planetary turnkeys.’
‘The primarch was wrong,’ Dantioch said, shaking his iron mask. ‘The extermination campaign prompted the migration rather than ending it. Perturabo claims the hrud cleansed from the galaxy but, if that is the case, what is quietly wiping out Compliance worlds on the Koranado Drift?’Pg.493 Age of Darkness"

Yes, there we are. Thank you for digging that up.

**Grey Templar**

So no, they didn't die of natural causes. They were killed as a result of the Hrud's entropic fields.

**Animus**

Grey Templar wrote:
So no, they didn't die of natural causes. They were killed as a result of the Hrud's entropic fields.

He died of old age, as directly stated in the text. Old age was simply brought upon him before his time as a result of enemy action.

**Grey Templar**

Again, no. That is not what that means.

Hrud entropic fields mimic the effects of old age, but its not actually old age. He died as a result of being under the effect of the Entropic Field, which mimics old age in that you die due to organ failure. But an Astartes's organs won't do that naturally.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Unnatural aging at the hands of a weapon is not the same as dying of natural old age.

**Animus**

Grey Templar wrote:
Again, no. That is not what that means.

Hrud entropic fields mimic the effects of old age, but its not actually old age. He died as a result of being under the effect of the Entropic Field, which mimics old age in that you die due to organ failure. But an Astartes's organs won't do that naturally.

It is exactly what it means. It is directly stated that he died of old age.
And an Astartes organs would very likely do that naturally, we see them deteriorate with age, losing potency.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Unnatural aging at the hands of a weapon is not the same as dying of natural old age.

It's the same mechanically, just sped up.

**ChazSexington**

For those wondering, Graham McNeill stated on Twitter a while back they are to treat SMs are functionally immortal as far as age is concerned, according to the Black Library. Doesn't mean they are, but for all practical reasons, they are.

**Grey Templar**

Animus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Again, no. That is not what that means.

Hrud entropic fields mimic the effects of old age, but its not actually old age. He died as a result of being under the effect of the Entropic Field, which mimics old age in that you die due to organ failure. But an Astartes's organs won't do that naturally.

It is exactly what it means. It is directly stated that he died of old age.
And an Astartes organs would very likely do that naturally, we see them deteriorate with age, losing potency.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Unnatural aging at the hands of a weapon is not the same as dying of natural old age.

It's the same mechanically, just sped up.

No, that is not how the Entropic fields work. They don't accelerate natural processes, they unnaturally mimic the effects by somehow increasing the entropy of the area effected. Its 100% unnatural.

He didn't die of old age, he died due to organ failure caused by the effects of an alien weapon/ability.

Thematically, the writer chose to use that descriptor because nothing else really describes the effect of the Entropic fields properly. Its not to be confused with actually dying of old age.

**Animus**

Grey Templar wrote:
No, that is not how the Entropic fields work. They don't accelerate natural processes, they unnaturally mimic the effects by somehow increasing the entropy of the area effected. Its 100% unnatural.

He didn't die of old age, he died due to organ failure caused by the effects of an alien weapon/ability.

Thematically, the writer chose to use that descriptor because nothing else really describes the effect of the Entropic fields properly. Its not to be confused with actually dying of old age.

That's how they work in this fiction and he did die of old age, this is directly stated. The writer could have described it in any manner of ways, note how another Marines is said to have died of heart failure, yet this Marine is said to have specifically died of old age, right there in plain English.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Doesn't say what age is old though does it?

Could be several billion, could be 1567 years, 5 months, 23 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes, and 43 seconds.

Just "old age" doesn't cut the mustard for functional immortality.