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Here are a few general rule changes that my friends and I have played around with to help balance things out.

We've been play testing these for the better part of six months and have found that they don't fix everything wrong in the rules, but help in few ways.

Feel free to give them a try and let me know what you think.

40k Changes

*Heavy Bolters - Strength (5) , AP (4) , 36” Range , Salvo 2/4

*Terminator Armor – TDA confers a 5+ FNP to the wearer in addition to its normal 2+ / 5+ Inv.

*Graviton Weapons – Against vehicles, in addition to removing a hull point, graviton weapons no longer cause an “Immobilized” result on a roll of a 6, instead the vehicle suffers a "Shaken" result on a roll of a 6.

*Invisiblity – This power has no effect in close combat. However if you choose to charge an invisible unit, you must reduce your charge range by d3 inches in addition to any other modifiers.

*Vehicles- Vehicles that have not performed any movement that turn, including pivoting on the spot, prior to its passengers disembarking; count as having the “Assault Vehicle” rule.

*Vehicles and Scoring - Vehicles that are "Immobilized" no longer count as scoring units.

*Overkill with Shooting, and Assaults – If an attacking unit shoots at a defending unit that is within 12” of it, and that defending unit is completely destroyed by that attacking unit’s round of shooting. Then that attacking unit may select a different defending unit within range to declare a charge against. If this is done, the charge against the new target counts as charging through difficult terrain and is a disordered charge.

Anyway, have fun and good luck.

I generally like most of these. The one I like least is the Invisibility tweak - my group generally uses "all attacks against an invisible unit are resolved at BS1/WS1, rather than Snap Shots/only hit on 6" - this way you still hit on 5s in melee, and can still fire blasts and templates, albeit inaccurately.

jade_angel wrote:
I generally like most of these. The one I like least is the Invisibility tweak - my group generally uses "all attacks against an invisible unit are resolved at BS1/WS1, rather than Snap Shots/only hit on 6" - this way you still hit on 5s in melee, and can still fire blasts and templates, albeit inaccurately.

That's a pretty good idea. I can honestly say nobody had even suggested that. We may have to give it a try. It's never made sense to me that you can't use a flamer on an invisible unit, when that's exactly what I'd use to flush them out.

Thanks.

GCs and SHV/W should not benefit from Cover Saves.

I like your proposed changes, big. I'd enjoy the game if rules like these were present. Especially the Assault Vehicle change.

However, I think Gargantuans and Superheavies should still be able to take cover saves, but maybe change it so the Gargantuan needs 25% obscurement to make any kind of cover save, like a vehicle does.

Maybe even up the threshold for obscurement to 50% for G/SHs. It could represent it being a bigger, easier target, and it would encourage people to make bigger terrain.

These mostly seem like buffs for Space Marines, not really making the game more balanced, but instead helping one of the power house codexs and buffing the other less powerful Space Marine factions (IE Blood Angels) Title was a bit misleading.

The assault vehicle change also significantly buffs Guard, Eldar, Tau (to the extent that they care) and Sisters. The grav-gun change is actually a nerf, same with invisibility.

Heavy bolters and terminator armor, yes, those are pretty much SM (and to a lesser extent Inquisition, Guard and Sisters) changes. Though one could reasonably make a similar case for Mega Armour and Big Shootas.

This wasn't really supposed to be a comprehensive "this fixes everything" set of changes - mostly a few patches for specific problems. (For example, heavy bolters are underpowered - they're almost never worth taking on units that have another option)

jade_angel wrote:
The assault vehicle change also significantly buffs Guard, Eldar, Tau (to the extent that they care) and Sisters. The grav-gun change is actually a nerf, same with invisibility.

Heavy bolters and terminator armor, yes, those are pretty much SM (and to a lesser extent Inquisition, Guard and Sisters) changes. Though one could reasonably make a similar case for Mega Armour and Big Shootas.

This wasn't really supposed to be a comprehensive "this fixes everything" set of changes - mostly a few patches for specific problems. (For example, heavy bolters are underpowered - they're almost never worth taking on units that have another option)

Assault vehicle change helps out almost nobody except maybe Eldar. Why? because the vehicle has to stay stationary and not move at all. I don't really see guard rushing Chimera's or taurox forward to let me blow them up so that on the next turn they can gain assault. What this does buff is Space Marine Rhino/Razorback rush which is a very valid tactic again with the gladius formation.

Heavy bolters and terminator is primarily for space marines but sisters and IG do have some Heavy Bolters. Heavy bolters are rather useless but so are Big shootas as you mentioned. As far as Mega armor is concerned, Orks already are paying more for Mega Armor then terminators are paying for there 2+ with a 5++. So realistically they don't need anymore buffs.

Invisibility is a buff to most armies since it keeps the shenanigans to a minimum and very few space marines get invisibility. So it makes it easier for most people to fight invis.

Grav is actually a buff. It doesn't seem like a buff but if you think about it then it is. Grav had a 1/6 to get an immobilized result which is a big deal, but now they have a 100% chance to effect it, making it snap shot, thats a big deal, you can basically stun lock expensive vehicles to death.

So overall this is a thread about buffing Space Marines and to a lesser extent other imperium of man armies.

...How is it a buff? Now, instead of immobilizing on a 6 and then doing an extra hullpoint every subsequent 6, now the vehicle just snap shots and thw guns need more shots on average. Also, these are all things in the brb. That sadly does mean that a lot of thw changes are for imperials and CSM, but thise changes are also very easy to yransfer to the codex-specific equivelent.

Adepta Sororitas Retributors would be quite interesting with *Heavy Bolters - Strength (5) , AP (4) , 36” Range , Salvo 2/4 especially with their Act of Faith giving rending

We have played a number of games with the non moving vehicles allowing assaults - and that has been fine.

I think we are at about 30 house rules to make the game reasonably playable.

haha, i just had to go look up the rules for grav weapons again, apparently I was getting cheated the last time I played against a grav toting Space Marine, your right it is a nerf.

This doesn't change that much for any other group of armies beyond IoM. Orks I know for a fact have no need for assault vehicles all of our transports (except the stupid nauts) are already Assault transports.

What? If I read the grav bit right, it went from "6 to immobilize" to "6 to shake". That's a nerf, straight up, since if you immobilize an immobilized vehicle, it loses an extra hull point. True, grav won't make a vehicle snap-shoot currently, but being immobilized is generally a more serious problem.

If he meant "grav always causes a Crew Shaken result on any hit", then yikes, that's the buff from hell. A single volley is likely to kill most vehicles by hull point depletion. That's sufficiently insane - on an army that doesn't need a lot of help killing vehicles - that I suspect that's not what the OP meant.

As for invisibility, I meant that it was a nerf to the power of invisibility. Also, AFAIK, it's mostly Space Marines that abuse it - or do you see a lot of invisible Eldar ickage in your meta? (I don't see many people using Telepathy at all because invisibility is so infernally obnoxious to play against, so my meta is likely not terribly representative, but the few times I do see it, it's Tigurius with Centurions in a drop pod)

Mega Armour is overcosted and underpowered, but that's because it's way too weak, not because Terminators are OP. Tell that to any SM or CSM player, and see if you hear anything else over the manic giggling (They will usually then agree that Meganobz cost way too much for what they do, though like Terminators they're nasty when they work.)

I'd argue Mega Armour should grant a 6++ and FNP 6+ (stacking with Cybork Body, which should be better than it is), and cost no more than Terminator Armour. Probably no less either, with both of those benefits (because FNP still helps you against stuff without AP2, if you fail the 2+).

One of the balance problems I find, is that even in the armies that are amazing, there are individual wargear and unit options that are terrible - those need fixing just as much as the low-tier armies need fixing. The fact that Wraithknights are unreasonably good does not mean that Storm Guardians don't stink on ice, or that Shining Spears are competitive with most of the other FA slot units, for one example. Nor does the existence of grav cannons mean that heavy bolters are where they should be, power-wise.

If you want to make the case that Orks need some buffs, I'll be right there agreeing with you, and clamoring for some fixes to Dark Eldar and Sisters, too. But that's not a terribly good argument against fixing internal balance issues elsewhere - see the Fallacy of Relative Privation.

jade_angel wrote:
What? If I read the grav bit right, it went from "6 to immobilize" to "6 to shake". That's a nerf, straight up, since if you immobilize an immobilized vehicle, it loses an extra hull point. True, grav won't make a vehicle snap-shoot currently, but being immobilized is generally a more serious problem.

If he meant "grav always causes a Crew Shaken result on any hit", then yikes, that's the buff from hell. A single volley is likely to kill most vehicles by hull point depletion. That's sufficiently insane - on an army that doesn't need a lot of help killing vehicles - that I suspect that's not what the OP meant.

I definitely meant from "6 to Immobilize" to "6 to Shaken" and made the change in the OP. Thanks for pointing this out.

The problem we were having was that Graviton Weapons were just as effective against vehicles/walkers, maybe even more so, than infantry/monsterous creatures and became the auto default weapon of choice for anyone playing marines. By making this change we've seen more of a mix when it comes to special/heavy weapons.

Sorry for any confusion that this may have caused.

The change to transport vehicles was put in place to help nullify what you might call a "Drop Pod Rush". Where your opponent throws down five Drop Pods right in your face turn one and pops all of your vehicles and everyone that just fell out is stuck standing around jerking off for the whole next turn because they can move and shoot, but can't assault. This benefits large squads of any type embarked in a vehicle. Combine this with the Overkill from Shooting change and people start to rethink running so many MSU.

As far as tweaks to the Ork Codex, I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions as I don't play Orks and rarely if ever play against them. A lot of the changes that we've been trying out deal with problems that our regular group have run into. The list that I posted was be no means meant to be comprehensive and certainly wasn't meant to enhance only one army or type of army.

Just throwing out there what we've been doing.

Have fun and good luck.

Heavy bolter should be salvo 4/2 or the base weapon found in devastators (chaos havok costs 13 points make them for free come standard with a hbolter).

The WS/BS 1 bit on invis is a common and sensible solution. As far as only marine abusing it I direct you to its application on a daemon dog star, wraithknight or any other crazy. Telepathy is 1 or 1a for top psychic teir and would be attractive sans invis just for shriek and shrouding.

Grav just needs AP 4 like in 30k.

Termy armour can be changed in a variety of ways and work (+1 wound, +1 invul, no scatter on deep strike, etc.) however the easiest is to slash prices. Make a standard PF termie be 30 or lower points. Make the Space Wolf/Chaos guys rocking gun+power weapon 23 points and pay a point or so to deep strike.

The assault vehicle rule is sensible, however make the charge disoriented.

The last bit about overkill I dislike since this specific interplay is one of the few tactical options in the game. If your unit is good at both do you risk a big shooting phase and lose the charge? If I overshooting I might be out of position and shot up next turn.

There are a ton ofthings

All MCs need to be 3+ save and then you can make grav AP 3. Until then, it stays AP 2.

Grav as AP2 is fine. It does need some tweaking to not be the obviously best choice for everything every time, but I think that's mainly a matter of rate of fire. If not for that, plasma would still be almost as good for anti-MC (it's still AP2, and S7 does a pretty good job on T6/T7 stuff).

Its ROF is too good, and Bikes and Cents completely negate its downsides.

What if it were salvo 2/2 and salvo 3/3 instead?

Grav could wound on size, something I've seen posed before.

Gargantuan: 2+
MC: 3+
Very Bulky: 4+
Bulky 5+.
Everything else: 6+.

Glances and inflicts Crew Shaken on a pen result of 6.

I like that idea, actually. And also noteworthy is glance/shake instead of pen/shake - a pen takes down Necron quantum shielding, making their vehicles much easier to crack, which makes grav a quite potent choice against them currently.

This would also leave a good role for plasma/melta against MEQ, TEQ and heavy infantry like Grotesques and Wraithguard (that don't neatly fit the MEQ/TEQ mold).

Bharring wrote:
Its ROF is too good, and Bikes and Cents completely negate its downsides.

What if it were salvo 2/2 and salvo 3/3 instead?

The ROF is fine. MCs and GMCs have a crap ton of wounds that they don't pay for. People crying over how it kills terminators aren't realizing that terminators have always been crap, even in 2nd. (Unless you were CSM)

The ROF is may be fine vs a Riptide, but not against a Wraithlord.

Not all MCs are broken.

Lukash,
That does sound interesting.

"Not all MCs are broken."

Given all their USR, it's pretty close to true.

Martel732 wrote:
"Not all MCs are broken."

Given all their USR, it's pretty close to true.

Tell that to the Keeper of Secrets

I'd argue the Wraithlord, Lord of Change, Daemon Prince, C'Tan Shards and Great Unclean One as not broken, likewise, and probably the Bloodthirster, too.

True, they don't die as easily as a 35-point Terminator, but at 4x or more of the cost, they shouldn't.

Now, there's a valid point to be made that it's very difficult to kill a Wraithlord in one hit, while Land Raiders not infrequently die that way, but that's a question of vehicles being too weak, not MCs being too strong.

Gravs will still rip vehicles apart because of their mass of shots. Thats my biggest problem with grav, theyre too universal and dependable for having such a wide target audience. Literally every single target that isnt a Guardsman, Gaunt, or Boy the Grav is amazing at killing because it shoots like hell, pens armor, and except on the before mentioned 3 and a handful of other sparcely seen units wounds reliably too.

Its suppose to be a big-thing killer. I dont get why it doesnt fire like 1-2 shots that multiply on MCs or Tanks (nontanks are small enough to dodge it's effect). Part of the reason i keep talking myself out of starting a marine dex is literally every single list i can come up with has a massive void in it without gravs. Not because i dont have other answers, but because theyre so damn strong even if i have alternatives it feels like i missing something.

Bolters shouldnt be S5. Thats a HUUUUGE buff to all Marines that they dont need. Im fine with the salvo thing though. Giving them both makes them vastly more powerful than literally any troop in the game by a long shot (dont know jack about skitari so not talking about them).

The vehicle not moving thing for assault vehicle is kinda...pointless. Except for Tau who didnt buy EMP grenades, who the hell is going to let that vehicle sit that close and not charge it first to blow it up and potentially pin the contents? I always found it dumb that you cant charge from a vehicle by default. There are numerous issues with vehicles and transport rules because the vehicle lacks assault vehicle, even though its best contents are assaulty.

I'm more in agreeance with the WS1/BS1 against Invisibility than rendering it useless. Its an expensive spell, it should be powerful. Problem right now is that it causes things that nothing else in the game can and theres literally no answer to it other than pure luck. BS1 instead of Snaps allows blasts to counter it to a degree.
I like to compare it to Cloaking in Starcraft. You can see cloaked units if you look hard enough or they attack you, but you cant fight back directly. Observer units aside, you have to find them via the wavy ground and slap a blast there to hit them. Its nowhere near as easy to do than just right click, but its possible.

And i totally love the Overkill idea. No idea how many times its ticked me off as an Ork player to accidentally shoot my target dead somehow when i statistically shouldnt have done that well lol. Though i would reduce it to 6", as a 12" range is reeeaaally wide and easy to abuse. Make it really easy to sit between 2 units, fire at the one you actually DONT want to charge but know you can wipe out and then charge the opposite direction at the unit you can more reliably charge.

Bolters shouldnt be S5. Thats a HUUUUGE buff to all Marines that they dont need. Im fine with the salvo thing though. Giving them both makes them vastly more powerful than literally any troop in the game by a long shot (dont know jack about skitari so not talking about them).

Not bolters, heavy bolters. They're already Str 5 (and AP4 for that matter)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Gravs will still rip vehicles apart because of their mass of shots. Thats my biggest problem with grav, theyre too universal and dependable for having such a wide target audience. Literally every single target that isnt a Guardsman, Gaunt, or Boy the Grav is amazing at killing because it shoots like hell, pens armor, and except on the before mentioned 3 and a handful of other sparcely seen units wounds reliably too.

Its suppose to be a big-thing killer. I dont get why it doesnt fire like 1-2 shots that multiply on MCs or Tanks (nontanks are small enough to dodge it's effect). Part of the reason i keep talking myself out of starting a marine dex is literally every single list i can come up with has a massive void in it without gravs. Not because i dont have other answers, but because theyre so damn strong even if i have alternatives it feels like i missing something.

Bolters shouldnt be S5. Thats a HUUUUGE buff to all Marines that they dont need. Im fine with the salvo thing though. Giving them both makes them vastly more powerful than literally any troop in the game by a long shot (dont know jack about skitari so not talking about them).

The vehicle not moving thing for assault vehicle is kinda...pointless. Except for Tau who didnt buy EMP grenades, who the hell is going to let that vehicle sit that close and not charge it first to blow it up and potentially pin the contents? I always found it dumb that you cant charge from a vehicle by default. There are numerous issues with vehicles and transport rules because the vehicle lacks assault vehicle, even though its best contents are assaulty.

I'm more in agreeance with the WS1/BS1 against Invisibility than rendering it useless. Its an expensive spell, it should be powerful. Problem right now is that it causes things that nothing else in the game can and theres literally no answer to it other than pure luck. BS1 instead of Snaps allows blasts to counter it to a degree.
I like to compare it to Cloaking in Starcraft. You can see cloaked units if you look hard enough or they attack you, but you cant fight back directly. Observer units aside, you have to find them via the wavy ground and slap a blast there to hit them. Its nowhere near as easy to do than just right click, but its possible.

And i totally love the Overkill idea. No idea how many times its ticked me off as an Ork player to accidentally shoot my target dead somehow when i statistically shouldnt have done that well lol. Though i would reduce it to 6", as a 12" range is reeeaaally wide and easy to abuse. Make it really easy to sit between 2 units, fire at the one you actually DONT want to charge but know you can wipe out and then charge the opposite direction at the unit you can more reliably charge.

Heavy bolters are already S5 - they're just Heavy 3 right now, which makes them both underpowered and awkward to use. They should be broadly the equivalent of Eldar shuriken cannons, which they aren't. (It doesn't help that shuricannons are some of the best weapons in their general class, but heavy bolters are the other end of the spectrum, except in the hands of Retributors - where they're merely OK.)

On grav - I like the multiplying hits idea, actually.

Whoops, pardon i for some reason missed the HEAVY part of that suggestion lol.

Thats fine then. Heavy Bolters always seemed kinda moot, expensive for barely any gain.

Hey all!

The OP here. I forgot to mention one extremely important change that we made, and to be honest I don't know how I over looked it except that we never really changed from playing it this way from previous editions.

*Vehicles and Scoring - Vehicles that are "Immobilized" no longer count as a scoring unit.

This goes right along with broken/fleeing units and units that have gone to ground not being able to claim objectives. It never made sense to us that an immobilized vehicle could hold an objective. So we've never really played it that way.

I'm updating the OP to add this to it.

Thanks for all the input so far and Good Luck!

What? No more Obsec Droppods? Heresey!

(Good change.)

Would this fit in?
-Maelstrom - Any card that is literally impossible (kill a psyker vs Necrons, but not win CC as Tau) can be cycled (discarded and a new card drawn) freely.