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How is this a thing now? Most bizarre rule interpretations come from typos, bad RAW and the player base being waac. However, this seems to be heavily confirmed by FW that their Space Marine characters can change Chapter Tactics at will. In other word, I can have an Iron Hands Sevrin Loth, even though he is from Red Scorpion. He is not Sevrin Loth himself, but rather the Iron Hands doppelganger version of Sevrin Loth. And this actually happened to day when I brought my allied armies against my opponent. He was rather speechless when I revealed it was a legal move to have Sevrin Loth and the Librarius Conclave being Iron Hands. It was a competitive game and we both have strong lists, so I would not call myself That Guy for that.

But how are FW Characters able to do this but Codex Space Marines people cannot? As far as RAW goes, Calgar cannot have Imperial Fists Tactics or anything other than Ultramarines.

How do you feel about this? Do you think this is FW policy so that their models would sell better than regular ones?

Where are you getting this notion from? Im pretty sure that not how the rules work

bibotot wrote:
But how are FW Characters able to do this but Codex Space Marines people cannot? As far as RAW goes, Calgar cannot have Imperial Fists Tactics or anything other than Ultramarines.

It's simple. Forge World is not legal.

No that isn't correct at all. They have set Chapter Tactics.

If you're using them straight out of the book you aren't using the latest version of their rules.

Remember, the Badab IAs were released before the 6th Edition Space Marine codex.

You wouldn't call yourself TFG for thinking your interpretation of the rules is messed up and underhanded but you did it anyway to be... Messed up and underhanded?

So, as already said, it's illegal anyway. Read the updates for the characters where they have Chapter Tactics. Second, you don't have permission to include Loth of any kind in a Librarius Conclave from the codex. You don't have permission to include ANY FW character in ANY Formation from the codex. This is plain fact RAW. Their name is not listed as a replacement, so they're not a replacement.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No that isn't correct at all. They have set Chapter Tactics.

If you're using them straight out of the book you aren't using the latest version of their rules.

Remember, the Badab IAs were released before the 6th Edition Space Marine codex.

This list was legal for Nova Open 2015 which took place in September. Sevrin Loth is using Ultramarines Tactics. Tournaments are accepting this. The current rules support it. No reason why anyone would deny it when you play like that.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10th-Michael-Vagenos-NovaOpen-2015.pdf

Tournaments can make up what ever rules they want.

RAW please cite exact sentences and pages that allow you to draw this conclusion.

Sounds like nova fethed up or this was previous to some kinda update or the list making system they are using just put UM in as default.

but dont let that from letting you go all hog wild.

bibotot wrote:


This list was legal for Nova Open 2015 which took place in September. Sevrin Loth is using Ultramarines Tactics. Tournaments are accepting this. The current rules support it. No reason why anyone would deny it when you play like that.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10th-Michael-Vagenos-NovaOpen-2015.pdf

No. a SINGLE tournament let someone use such a list for unknown reasons (could have been they think its legal, it also could have been the person checking that list wasn't aware of the rule for the Babad characters and misruled it, or could have been they missed that mistake on the list when it was checked). Or that was a editing error and that detachment isn't actually an UM detachment and it was just written as such (because Army Builder didn't have Red Scorpian as a choice). Not to mention the fact that NOVA is the odd ball on the tournament scene as they use their own tournament packet that goes as far as outright banning Super Heavies and GMCs so them allowing such a ruling is no way indicative of every other tournament making that ruling.

And again the RAW does not support it. The most up to date rules for the FW SM characters have them with their chapters' Chapter Tactics and you aren't giving permission to change it.

bibotot wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No that isn't correct at all. They have set Chapter Tactics.

If you're using them straight out of the book you aren't using the latest version of their rules.

Remember, the Badab IAs were released before the 6th Edition Space Marine codex.

This list was legal for Nova Open 2015 which took place in September. Sevrin Loth is using Ultramarines Tactics. Tournaments are accepting this. The current rules support it. No reason why anyone would deny it when you play like that.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10th-Michael-Vagenos-NovaOpen-2015.pdf

The current rules actually don't support it at all.
Nova just fethed up.

Either the characters have set Chapter Tactics or they don't have the Chapter Tactics rule at all.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
You wouldn't call yourself TFG for thinking your interpretation of the rules is messed up and underhanded but you did it anyway to be... Messed up and underhanded?

So, as already said, it's illegal anyway. Read the updates for the characters where they have Chapter Tactics. Second, you don't have permission to include Loth of any kind in a Librarius Conclave from the codex. You don't have permission to include ANY FW character in ANY Formation from the codex. This is plain fact RAW. Their name is not listed as a replacement, so they're not a replacement.

Check FAQ again. Read the 1d4chan if you can't find it. Read the Librarius Conclave entry. Even Battlescribe allows you to create Librairius Conclave with Sevrin Loth being part of the Formation. However, it really does not allow Loth to have any Chapter Tactics other than Red Scorpion, which is where the rules of multiple publications divert from one another.

I only ask how people would think of this and not whether this is right or not. This is the kind of policy that is obviously shady. And unless they update it, this will be the way things are, just like Psy-bolt ammunition for Inqusition and their own brand of Psy-out grenade that differs from the Grey Knights one. People who play Inqusition still use the old rules because of the lack of update, and unless FW changes anything, people will continue to change their character Chapter Tactics unhindered.

If you and your community don't play it, fine. Many rules can be agree between people and not decided by the books.

1D4 Chan and battle scribe is not a substitute for a rule book bro.

they are also riddled with mistakes and old information.

Battlescribe does not trump the codex or IA books.

Again please cite specific pages from IA, a relevent FAQ or a codex.

1d4chan and Battlescribe aren't rules sources. The fact that they let you put Sevrin Loth in the formation DOESN"T MEAN ANYTHING. Go read the actual formation rules.

And as for your actual point on FW undercutting GW. GW owns FW. They are the same company there is no such thing as undercutting your own company.

Each character in this update has been assigned the appropriate Chapter Tactics and, as with the special characters presented
in Codex: Space Marines, may be included as part of any detachment with the same Chapter Tactic. Where characters from a
named Chapter have the Chapter Tactic of another Chapter (for example, Vaylund Cal of the Sons of Medusa, who has Chapter
Tactics (Iron Hands)), they may be taken as part of a detachment representing a different Chapter that has the same Chapter
Tactic (for example, Vaylund Cal could be selected as part of an Iron Hands detachment), but are assumed to be that Chapter’s
‘version’ of that character

The above is from the forge world FAQ

Nothing in this indicates that you can switch tactics.

 CrownAxe wrote:
1d4chan and Battlescribe aren't rules sources. The fact that they let you put Sevrin Loth in the formation DOESN"T MEAN ANYTHING. Go read the actual formation rules.

This. FFS, stop using random third-party army building tools and comedy websites. Read the actual rules and updates published by FW, where it is perfectly clear that what you are talking about is not legal. Then, when you feel suitably embarrassed for making an angry rant based on a complete misunderstanding of the rules, I'd suggest asking a moderator to lock the thread.

This is just... messed up you try and justify that.

bibotot wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
You wouldn't call yourself TFG for thinking your interpretation of the rules is messed up and underhanded but you did it anyway to be... Messed up and underhanded?

So, as already said, it's illegal anyway. Read the updates for the characters where they have Chapter Tactics. Second, you don't have permission to include Loth of any kind in a Librarius Conclave from the codex. You don't have permission to include ANY FW character in ANY Formation from the codex. This is plain fact RAW. Their name is not listed as a replacement, so they're not a replacement.

Check FAQ again. Read the 1d4chan if you can't find it. Read the Librarius Conclave entry. Even Battlescribe allows you to create Librairius Conclave with Sevrin Loth being part of the Formation. However, it really does not allow Loth to have any Chapter Tactics other than Red Scorpion, which is where the rules of multiple publications divert from one another.

I only ask how people would think of this and not whether this is right or not. This is the kind of policy that is obviously shady. And unless they update it, this will be the way things are, just like Psy-bolt ammunition for Inqusition and their own brand of Psy-out grenade that differs from the Grey Knights one. People who play Inqusition still use the old rules because of the lack of update, and unless FW changes anything, people will continue to change their character Chapter Tactics unhindered.

If you and your community don't play it, fine. Many rules can be agree between people and not decided by the books.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Space_Marine_Badab_Characters_V2.pdf

Read the actual rules. Don't read some internet wiki or blindly follow a program that has been known to make multiple mistakes on a regular basis. Rules are provided by the people that make the rules. Not by some 3rd party. Not NOVA, not ITC, not 1d4chan, not Battlescribe.

House ruling is a big thing in 40k, but they are JUST house rules. They have zero bearing on the actual game at large. Yes it would be nice if things were updated frequently, but let's be blunt here. You didn't notice the rules that WERE updated and unintentionally cheated in your game. You want to call it a house rule, fine, whatever. Or, you could simply read up on the current rules, understand your mistake and apparently the mistake of NOVA and become a better player by following the rules as presented as closely as possible without trying to find shady loopholes.

Me personally, I house rule the updates that SHOULD happen. My Leman Russ tanks can fire Ordnance and other weapons because of the Army List I choose from. Tyrant's Legion. My Chimera can have five guys shooting out the top of it in Inquisition. Plasma guns for everyone! But, I house rule that to make it on par with current Imperial Guard equipment to make a FAIR house rule, even though it's a nerf to both units. You can't compare that sort of house rule to what you are trying to do. Taking the extra step and fixing the (many) rule feth ups that occur for a fair and balanced match is actively encouraged. You did the opposite and did it for power gaming reasons.

Cant give page sources, on my pboen right now, but if I remember correctly they are HALF right. FW has stated that special characters in their books can fit into the modern formations if they fit the theme I.e. librarian is Loth, Captain/chapter master is Huron, Venerable Dreadnaught is Ashmantle, etc. But you Cannot change the stats of the unit, including its chapter tactics.

What I THINK he is mistaking it for is the old guidence from WD that said that you could use any model as any character if it was WYSIWYG, or the stats of a character for a model. So Lets say I liked the model of Loth, there's nothing stopping me from using it as my hypothetical Salamander Librarian. Nor is there anything stopping me from using the stats of Huron with a third party conversion, and ssaying he is actually "Silvar Blackblood, captian of the Ebony Executioners". As long as mechanical rules aren't broken its no big deal

I have heard rumors of emails from random forge world employees saying that. That's pretty much worthless as precedent for the rules, only an official FAQ has any real meaning.

It all depends on what they want and if its casual or tournament setting. If someone wanted someone for a different chapter I wouldn't care, unless it was Loth specifically xD

by the same reasoning I could include Farsight as the Commander in a Hunter Contingent or Shadowsun as the Commander of a Dawn Blade Contingent because they are both Commanders?

Yep, as long as they fit the desired setup for a rule. As long as you can explain how they fit into the situation, including refluffing the model as a different character, people generally don't care unless it's a case by case problem

So, this would seem to be resolved.

Moving on.