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Hey there dakka,
I'm trying to flesh out a splinter of salamanders that were flung into the relative present (in game) by warp vagaries as they were en route to istvaan.

What I'd like to know if anyone can point me in the right direction is:

Info on all known space marine ships, weapons and carrying capacity, roles etc and if possible what my chapter may have acquired pre and post heresy.

Second would be any info not found on the salamanders wikis pertaining to their original hierarchy, compositions and naming procedures for what a chapter, unit, etc etc might be called.

So please oh great loremasters dwelling in the aetheric tides of dakka, what knowledge can you bestow upon me.

Edit: to fix spelling mistakes from phone typing

I know you wanted info not found on the wiki's but I'm going to point you there anyway - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Salamanders.

On that page you'll find most, if not all of the Chapters current and past Vehicles, Aircraft and Vessels in addition to the majority of all the named Salamanders in the source material. The reason being is that I can personally vouch for it being canon - I added in a good chunk of it myself straight out of the source material.

If your still not happy with that, it may help if you think of some more specific questions to ask. It's quite a large topic for people to tackle without a little more idea of where you'd like to take your Salamanders.

Not sure if troll lol but if you did contribute to the actual wiki than thank you.

To be clear I've read three salamanders wiki pages top to bottom, mostly directly copying the exact text from the imperial armour and fw heresy books which I've been reading to try and find the info myself, and have found very very few specifics on either thing I asked. I'm assuming some of the info i asked may be in the old armada rules or whatever it was called?

Also i thought "what are the space marine vessels, capacity and function used pre and post heresy?" Relatively specific, as well as a break down of the salamander hierarchy. ... but what the hell do I know

Pre-Heresy Space Marine Fleets would have included both Imperial Navy-equivalents and Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges. That means that you would likely be finding Grand Cruisers, Light Cruisers, IN support vessels, etc. That being said, Battle Cruisers weren't around during HH, since they were created to fill the hole created by a declining capability to build Grand Cruisers.
EDIT: I'd recommend you check out this page: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy#Battleships

Requiet wrote:


Also i thought "what are the space marine vessels, capacity and function used pre and post heresy?" Relatively specific, as well as a break down of the salamander hierarchy. ... but what the hell do I know

SM fleets post heresy are geared towards supporting planetary invasions. Typically consisting of 1-3 battle barges and a strike cruiser for every company, plus a number of escort vessels (frigates and such). The only truly vessel to vessel combatants are the frigates, while the strike cruisers and battle barges have large forward batteries for bombardment and typically have very strong armour to withstand counter battery. While serviceable in fleet engagements, they will collapse to a similar sized fleet of IN (or equivalent Chaos/Renegade) fleets, which are geared for fleet engagements first and foremost.

Strike cruisers are the workhorse, and typically house some number of thunderhawks (and similar) while having launching capacity for drop pods for the company and support. Battle barges are just larger versions with even more support elements for larger engagements.

There are differences among chapters, with the crusade oriented ones having larger fleets that are more capable in fleet engagements, but typically (and for Sallies specifically), they're used as support elements for invasions. Specifically for the Salamanders, they have their forgeship 'Chalice of Fire', which as far as I've read is mostly just a spaceborne manufactory. Other than that, the specific list of known vessels are listed on various wikis. The same wikis also list the details of strike cruisers and such.

Thanks guys this was a lot more towards what I was hoping to find out, if anyone else has any more information I'd love to hear it

I would second Warpig's statement that some specifics on your splinter force would facilitate providing a satisfactory answer to the question.

Does your splinter force have an entire fleet, or are they the passengers of a single ship that's been catapulted forward in time?
How large is their infantry, air and ground vehicle contingent?

I think the most elegant solution would be to determine what the army contains, and then to use a single starship that typically carries roughly that amount of forces on board.

Requiet wrote:
Not sure if troll lol but if you did contribute to the actual wiki than thank you.

To be clear I've read three salamanders wiki pages top to bottom, mostly directly copying the exact text from the imperial armour and fw heresy books which I've been reading to try and find the info myself, and have found very very few specifics on either thing I asked. I'm assuming some of the info i asked may be in the old armada rules or whatever it was called?

Also i thought "what are the space marine vessels, capacity and function used pre and post heresy?" Relatively specific, as well as a break down of the salamander hierarchy. ... but what the hell do I know

Hehe - not a troll. I go by the name 'Adranus' on Lexicanum - check out the revision history of the page. There's me and a couple of other editors who do quite a lot of the Salamanders stuff. You won't find specifics on the ship types on the Salamanders pages as it's set up to be more user friendly, giving you a Name, Type and Date Destroyed/In Use. As dusara217 has said, Pre-Heresy fleets made use of a wider range of ships, so you'll find more information regarding the functionality of each Imperial ship in you go to their specific pages here:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy_Vessels_(List)

Space Marine Vessels here:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Fleet

I intend to have an entire chapter plus some by the time I'm all finished, I've already got about half of that in models so after reading through the new links I've been putting together a pretty large fleet, its harder to estimate how much each ship carries but that's fine because I'm giving them a mobile base as one of Vulkan's unheard of artifacts, not even in the tomb of fire that's effectively a miniature craftworld/dyson sphere based off of both the eldar technology in concept and the designs found by the original salamanders under terra during the unification wars. So here's what I have a fleet so far, if you guys could help me flesh it out a bit that would be awesome or just tips or general advice:

"Flamebourne" - Vulkan Class Craft-Forge - Roughly estimated between 1/3 and 1/2 the size of an Eldar Craftworld the outside of the vessel is jet black as the void itself. To most it would only appear to be an obsidian like planetoid that doesn't register on most scans and due to its void like appearance makes it nearly impossible to spot from a distance with the bare eye. Special technology was developed by Vulkan for his Seventh (Legion? This is where I've had trouble finding naming for things, were they chapters back then? Companies? Something altogether different? I know that there were seven of them if I remember correctly, one for each city of Nocturne.) When viewed more closely the outside of the vessel is completely littered with thousands of defense lasers and other forms of security that could vaporize an entire fleet if ever it were to be attacked or boarded. On the inside is an incredibly compact miniature sun held together by arcane gravitational devices that simultaneously cause the outer walls to form their own gravity while stabalizing the star material in the center. Unlike Nocturne Vulkan wanted to give his hard-worked people a verdant haven should the unthinkable ever happen to their homeworld and so the walls on the inside of the vessel are lined with forests and farms where not populated by large cities. About one sixth of the inner surface is vegetation, a quarter is two large bodies of water, one third of the surface are great forges and manufactorums and the rest is spiraling cityscapes. A large portion of each of the seven tribes of Nocturne were originally resettled inside the vessel to help with the 7th's recruiting should such a disaster befall and have thrived in this environment, the Nocturneans unique radiation absorbing skin helping to withstand the relatively close existence with their pygmy sun. Unknown to all but the highest of the techmarines in the center of their son is a sort of panopticon with near artificial intelligence guarding the systems of their fortress home and continuing to repair and maintain on inner systems. A large shield constantly rotates around the sun to create an artificial night.

Things in () are my estimates on what would normally be housed on each ship

Battleships/Barges-
Emperor Class "Dawn of Rebirth" Led by Captain Sabriel Granox of the 1st Terminator Company
-------------(237 Brothers - Including 60 Terminators, 20 Command Squad, 10 Honour Guard, 20 Sternguard, 15 Vanguard, 112 brothers in 2x Demi-Companies)
*Wrath Starfighter Squadrons aboard Dawn of Rebirth-
--- Phoenix Squadron
---Firebeak Squadron
---Milarque Squadron
---Redwing Squadron
---Drakkenmaw Squadron
**Starhawk Squadrons aboard Dawn of Rebirth
---Solar Dawn Squadron
---Dusk Squadron
---Morrow Squadron

Apocalypse Class "Nova Marx" led by Captain Le'Kona Veersh of the 2nd Veteran Company (188 Brothers - 10 Librarians, 10 Command, 3x Demi Companies)
Apocalypse Class "Solarus Eternal" led by Sergeant Dax Arkanthos of the 2nd Veteran Company (185 Brothers - 10 Vanguard. 7 Sternguard and 2x Demi Companies)

Oberon Class "The Grave Star" led by the 13th Scout Company Captain Zi Firstlight (70 Scouts)

Victory Class "Deliverance Nigh" led by 6th Captain Gorro Moonspur (80 Marines piloting Landspeeders, bikes and surface craft)

Invincible Class "Dusk's Dawn" captured by the venerated 8th Captain Blood and used mercilessly to cleanse a Dusk Wraith Corsair fleet encountered. Since Captain Blood's promotion to Master of the Fleet aboard his own vessel. Currently led by Venerable Brother Arthureo Kingstone in his Holy Dreadnought Armour. He leads the 12th Company of the Unseen, a company specifically reserved for the fallen dreadnought brothers and any Salamanders that may also have been flung far from their own time that reconnect with this chapter. (Currently 25 passengers aboard this vessel, 4 attending Techmarines, two 5 man Command Squads, and 11 Dreadnoughts)

Cruisers -
Strike Cruiser "Drakken'Vaul" led by 3rd Captain Kioro Moonsplinter (82 Brothers - 1 1/2 Demi Companies)
Strike Cruiser "Skar's Rock" led by Chaplain (90 Brothers - 8 Chaplains, 1 1/2 Demi Companies)
Strike Cruiser "Infinity's Cradle" led by 10th Captain Lucrenze Fallspar (82 Brothers - 1 1/2 Demi Companies)
Strike Cruiser "Magma Incarnus" led by Master of the Forge Bleetz Adamarrow (80 Brothers - Techmarine Forge Vessel used as the Armoury for most of the vehicles -whirlwhinds, predators and such non-dedicated vehicles- and attending Techmarines.)

Avenger Grand Cruiser "Skarroc's Dawn" led by 7th Captain Daimos Horrune (82 Brothers - 1 1/2 Demi Companies)
Avenger Grand Cruiser "Drakken'Guard" led by 4th Captain Melaxis Minoru (89 Brothers - 33 Sternguard and 1 Demi Company)
Avenger Grand Cruiser "Wild Ember" led by 5th Captain Fivaal Slagher (56 Brothers - 1 Demi Company)

Exorcist Grand Cruiser "Vulkan's Shield" captured during the battle with the Dusk Wraith fleet and since re-purposed to house rescued civilians that may be suitable to be moved to the Flamebourne to enhance genetic diversity or carry other victims until a suitable location has been found.

Overlord Class Battlecruiser "Agni's Comet" led by Captain Novar Couraszent of the 9th Company. (100 Brothers - Mostly devastators and a small Tank Company)

Chalice Class Battlecruiser "Triumph of Eternal Judgment" Seat of the Master of the Fleet Captain Blood (30 Vanguard and 60 Assault Marines)

Dominator Cruiser "Justice Anew" was a recaptured Salamander Vessel that was taken during the Istvaan Betrayal taken by a Nightlords warband. The Justice Anew, originally "Vulkan's Ire," is currently being cleansed in purified in the holy fires and its spirit is being mended by the greatest techmarines of the chapter. This has caused greater contention with the Inquisition attached to the fleet and stresses their already burdened relationship but the Chapter refuses to give up a relic that once fought beside them in the Great Crusade and so they continue their work.

Dominator Class Cruiser "Heart of War" bestowed to Sergeant Alexandru Arkanthos of the 1st Terminator Company after a gruesome battle with the hellish forces of chaos during their time-bending misadventure through the warp. (35 Battle Brothers all Terminators)

Vanguard Class Cruiser "Omniscience" led by the 11th Captain Forborne Rael (56 Brothers - 1 Demi Company)


With this in mind I was wondering just how many Nova Frigates, Gladius Frigates and Hunter Destroyers might be appropriate as well as any supporting Imperial vessels that may have been present. Also in a 13 company chapter I wasn't sure on the exact capacity (worth of space marines) each ship might hold. I put my estimate in parenthesis for each. Any suggestions here would be great. Also if anyone knows the average amount of landing craft such as Thunderhawks each type of ship may have and drop pod amount that would help with troop allocation among the ships. Also note that characters like Chaplains and Librarians may be housed on one ship but can go where they're needed and some may already be dedicated to certain demi companies or just not currently listed.

Being relatively pre-heresy upon departure the fleet has more ships than a normal Space Marine Fleet would be afforded under the codex and this has caused great strife to the Inquisition. Also the discovery of the Flamebourne by a chance encounter with a Magos Explorator on a Knight World has caused two additional ships to be seen with various parts of the fleet. The Inquisition has yet no idea of where the Chapter's secret base is located, however the Ark Mechanicus vessel has sworn an oath of loyalty and secrecy in exchange for the chance to study the artifact.

Inquisitorial Cruiser "Nox Infernatus" led by Inquisitor Halbert Solsgar
Ark Mechanicus Vessel "Molten Knowledge" led by Magos Explorator DeGrasse Tylien

Now these are just my thoughts/opinion if you're wanting feedback - obviously YMMV.

Requiet wrote:
I intend to have an entire chapter plus some by the time I'm all finished, I've already got about half of that in models so after reading through the new links I've been putting together a pretty large fleet

Personally, I find this a bit OP. I can imagine a company going missing, maybe even two or three companies, but I find it difficult to imagine a whole Chapter disappearing. However that's just my opinion.

Requiet wrote:
I'm giving them a mobile base as one of Vulkan's unheard of artifacts,not even in the tomb of fire that's effectively a miniature craftworld/dyson sphere based off of both the eldar technology in concept and the designs found by the original salamanders under terra during the unification wars.

One of the key points about the Salamanders is that they hate, I mean really hate, the Dark Eldar. Hence, they aren't too keen on the 'light' eldar either. I highly doubt they would touch Eldar tech with anything other than a boltgun.

Requiet wrote:
"Flamebourne" - Vulkan Class Craft-Forge - Roughly estimated between 1/3 and 1/2 the size of an Eldar Craftworld the outside of the vessel is jet black as the void itself. To most it would only appear to be an obsidian like planetoid that doesn't register on most scans and due to its void like appearance makes it nearly impossible to spot from a distance with the bare eye. Special technology was developed by Vulkan for his Seventh (Legion? This is where I've had trouble finding naming for things, were they chapters back then? Companies? Something altogether different? I know that there were seven of them if I remember correctly, one for each city of Nocturne.) When viewed more closely the outside of the vessel is completely littered with thousands of defense lasers and other forms of security that could vaporize an entire fleet if ever it were to be attacked or boarded. On the inside is an incredibly compact miniature sun held together by arcane gravitational devices that simultaneously cause the outer walls to form their own gravity while stabalizing the star material in the center.

Yeah... No. If Vulkan had developed a ship that was the size of a planet and it was going to Isstvan - he'd be on it. We know he wasn't, because he made it to Isstvan V. Similarly, a ship that size, with the weaponry you describe would be enough to have felled the entire traitor fleet around Isstvan V - negating the need for 7 whole Legions and their fleets to be sent to Isstvan V.

Requiet wrote:
(Legion? This is where I've had trouble finding naming for things, were they chapters back then? Companies? Something altogether different? I know that there were seven of them if I remember correctly, one for each city of Nocturne.)

Realm is the word you're looking for. There were seven realms, one each for each of the Sanctuary cities. IIRC, the organisation went Realm-Chapter-Company-Squad, although I may be wrong in that Realm and Chapter may be the same formation - I'll look that up.

Requiet wrote:
Unlike Nocturne Vulkan wanted to give his hard-worked people a verdant haven should the unthinkable ever happen to their homeworld and so the walls on the inside of the vessel are lined with forests and farms where not populated by large cities. About one sixth of the inner surface is vegetation, a quarter is two large bodies of water, one third of the surface are great forges and manufactorums and the rest is spiraling cityscapes. A large portion of each of the seven tribes of Nocturne were originally resettled inside the vessel to help with the 7th's recruiting should such a disaster befall and have thrived in this environment, the Nocturneans unique radiation absorbing skin helping to withstand the relatively close existence with their pygmy sun. Unknown to all but the highest of the techmarines in the center of their son is a sort of panopticon with near artificial intelligence guarding the systems of their fortress home and continuing to repair and maintain on inner systems. A large shield constantly rotates around the sun to create an artificial night.

I doubt Vulkan would want his hard-working people in a verdant haven. Not that's he's cruel, but it's a key belief of all Nocturneans in fire and the rebirth that comes with it. The Nocturneans pride themselves on their ability to endure, be it the environment or in battle. Perhaps they would appreciate a change of scenery, but they are already perfectly adapted to Nocturne. They herd saurochs for food or fish in the Acerbian sea and I imagine the ash and cooler interiors of the Ignean cave system could support limited farming though that last point is speculation on my part.

TLDR - The problem is that it's too special snowflake. It ventures outside the 'believable-and-slots-nicely-into-the-fluff' area. I don't mean to be a douche and tear apart all your ideas just for the bad of it, but it's simply what I, as a bystander and somebody with an interest in the Salamanders, would make of it if you presented me with that story. I feel it would need toning down to be more believable. These are the points I'd make:

Timeline - Instead of en route to Isstvan, how about the force is some of the survivors of Isstvan? Then, you can give them some unique stuff and because they aren't in a prominent position in the fluff, it can't really be disproved. We known there were survivors from Isstvan V. We know that some of these survivors weren't on the surface yet and so had time to escape in ships, possibly with heavy armour still loaded. They hooked-up with some survivors from the ground before they left, hear that Vulkan is gone/Legion shattered and get chased out of system. Jumping into the warp in a hurry, time goes wonky and they end up 10,000 years in the future.

Strength - Again, it's hard to believe that a whole Chapter suddenly reappears as a combined fleet, with a massive planetoid/station. At best the ships would come out massively scattered. At worst - only a few would come out at all. The warp is a terrifyingly convoluted, incredibly dangerous and generally acts like the Bermuda Triangle turned up to 11 - considering that the even the best of jumps is fairly hit and miss anyway, I would strongly suspect that if something went that badly wrong that it managed to project the ships 10,000 years into the future - they wouldn't be coming out all in a nice formation. My suggestion would be to tone it down to maybe a couple of battle barges, a few strike cruisers and maybe a few escorts - TBH, anything over that I would raise an eyebrow at.

Again, I apologise if this comes over as being really arsey, but these are just my humble opinions, heed them or discard them at your own will.

The thing that I like most about this game is just how many special snowflakes there are ;P

The reason I choose en route to Istvaan is because there is literally so much devastation that nobody but Vulkan himself would notice a thousand of the maybe 50,000 troops going missing. I think they mention the Salamanders were between 50-65 thousand men preheresy, so less than 2% army going missing, while extreme, is not something the Imperium doesn't write off.

I like the idea of Vulkan having this backup plan of a vessel being able to wipe out the entire conflict only to get completely screwed by the chaos gods, seems way up their alley at the time and losing that level of strength would definitely swing the entire engagement against them, however the chaos gods would be more than aware if they allowed something like this to pass their plans would be ruined entirely. The reason Vulkan wouldn't be too upset at the time of the massacre would be that he thought up until his retreat that they still had overwhelming numbers, so while a bummer, he still had a job to do and could dwell on it later. Nobody would ever be surprised if vessels go missing in the warp.

Also I hadn't intended them to all appear at once but as I've written their fluff they've been piecing together what remnants of their fleet exist over the past two thousand years or so. An entire company is left for finding those that may appear since no proper records are really available of the Salamander numbers during the heresy, not even if there were enough marines to form second foundings, so its completely likely that had even just a small piece of the fleet emerged they'd have little to no possible way of finding out. Yes they'd go to the current Salamander brothers, but who is to say they would help, that the inquisitions meddling wouldn't get in the way of any answers, etc.

Finally I feel Vulkan was the single most compassionate Primarch that we know of. I'm more than aware of their hatred for the D.Eldar and even the likelihood of their hatred for the eldar themselves, but respecting your enemy and innovating off of their ideas was most of what the great crusade was. It's not like they would be living in Wraithbone palaces or anything, as yet the material the Flamebourne is crafted from is a complete mystery. I could absolutely tone down the inner paradise deal and make it more Mech-y because that's easily the other way things would go and does make a bit more sense, so I concede to a bit too heavy snowfall there, but what would be wrong with actually rewarding those that could be born through fire? Each member of the Flamebourne population could be tested for decades among the chapter serfs and other tribulations before being permitted to reside within its walls and bringing about the next generation of Flamebourne.

Edit:Spelling mistake

Well those are just my reservations on the idea, but if you like it then you go for it - it isn't the worst idea I've heard by far, but IMHO it stretches '40k realism' a touch far for me. That said, I don't want to grind your idea into the dust and make you lose enthusiasm for the setting by continuing to pick 'faults' (Just differences of opinion really). If you have any questions about the Salamanders or if I can lend an ear to any ideas then feel free to PM me - I always enjoy talking about Salamanders

On pre-heresy Salamanders organisation, they did not have Chapters. The entire Salamanders Legion was organised into 7 realms, each of which was subdivided into numerous companies of 120 marines each. There was no chapter-level organisation in the Salamanders.

Furthermore, I agree with warpig1815's criticism of your idea. It does simply not fit into the existing fluff and screams "special snowflake" to me. The trick with making good snowflakes is that while they should be unique, they also should not stand out from all the other snowflakes in the blizzard. Compared with existing 40k fluff, your idea definitely stands out too much.
A ship like the one you describe is unprecedented in 40k lore, and far beyond the technological level of the Heresy-era Imperium. How did Vulcan get it, and how come the Mechanicum isn't all over it?

Also, the Salamanders were very insistent on taking recruits only from Nocturne (and the specific city assigned to their realm), which is the whole reason behind the Salamanders Legion and Chapter being smaller than the others. I highly doubt they would take recruits from some kind of spaceship.

Also, time travel accidents resulting from mistakes in Warp navigation are rare, and it is extremely rare for anything of this magnitude to happen. An entire fleet jumping 10000 years in time? Highly unlikely. It'd require all navigators on all ships in the fleet all making the same mistake and ending up taking the same "wrong turn" in the Warp and then subsequently also taking all the same "turns" all the other ships took, and that is without taking random Warp fluctuations into account. Without pre-planned coordination that would not be possible, and at least one of the navigators on the fleet is going to spot an error that massive in the fleet's navigation plans. A few ships could get missing, but a fleet that large? Something like that has never happened.

Also, the Salamanders are highly unlikely to just do nothing if their brothers from Vulkan's time suddenly show up in the present era. How are they going to interact with each other?

It is your fluff, of course, but since you posted it here, that are my thoughts on it. Take the criticism for what you think it is worth, and if you really like your idea, by all means, carry on with it.

Back to the question though, what kind of escort and support ships would this type of fleet muster? Do the ship capacities make sense? I figure any escorts with single squad capacity could psyphon from the demi companies or specialists. Do the types of ships fit the character of a salamander fleet?

A planet-sized ship would need an entire battlefleet to protect it. So between 3 to 5 capital ships, each with 3 to 5 escorts, and then roughly a score of support vessels. At a conservative estimation, that's half a million people just to crew those vessels.

Being Heresy-era, you would have 3 to 5 Grand Cruisers, escorted by 3 to 5 cruisers, destroyers and/or frigates (each), with all the needed support ships coming in behind them.

Never mind the fact that a planet-sized starship is going to generate so much gravitational disruption that it will seriously feth up any star-system it enters. Just dropping out of the Warp near a populated world would cause untold devastation as it causes the tides and weather to go berserk.