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Hey all I noticed how good Swordmasters of Hoeth are and I was wondering who is running these in the AoS lists and what other units synergize well with these guys? I have played much High Elves but my buddy used these guys and some of my other HE units in a 3 way battle and these guys wrecked house!!!

They don't have synergy with much else in the HE range. Giving them a mystic shield is helpful, as well as an extra attack from the Prince on Dragon horn.. but that's pretty much it. If the swords had a 2" range it would give them more opportunities.

I don't agree at all, there are some crazy synergies everywhere in the HE list. Offensively, the dragon horn mentioned is great, as well as the command abilities of both the prince on foot and the sea helm. The sea helm totem is wicked as well, and you can combine any of the above for some crazy damage. For example, by using the dragon horn, the sea helm command ability and the sea helm totem you have swordmasters with 3 attacks each, hitting on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 2s with rerolls... With a group of 10 Swordmasters including champion your looking at an average damage output of 27 wounds in that combat round.

Defensively you can also stack up some nice combos. Mystic shield is one, giving them a 3+ save with rerolls in the shooting phase. With the sea helms command ability, you reroll in the combat phase as well, and you can also make use of the shield of saphery spell, which gives them a 6+ save against everything on top of their normal save.

Several of these buffs are AoE, so you don't even have to commit to use them.

I don't know, in my experience they are a real butcher troupe, and I love fielding them and watching my opponents facial expression when I regularly do 20+ rend -1 wounds on whatever unit he thought was tough.

I also love my Swordmasters!

They are very good offensively and also that reroll against shooting gives them actual chances to reach the other side of the battlefield. As others said Mystic Shield is great on them and there are certain buffs that can empower them as Solaris said.

That said they can work just fine on their own and pack a punch.

The only problem I see is that they fall short when compared with Phoenix Guard (who are really broken) and their 4+ ward save wich makes them a nightmare for the opponent to dispose of...

DDo you guys mean Prince on Dragon and using the HIgh Elf Horn ability? Its an awesome ability but its a once per game use.

Phoenix Guard - Nice! Ill have to try these guys out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow the Prince on Dragon is 492 SDK points... thats a boatload!

I wouldn't be so sure about that (though granted I don't own any phoenix guard, so I don't have any experience with them). Just looking at the units without any buffs, 10 swordmasters deal on average 2.5 to 3 more damage per combat round than 10 phoenix guard do (the number varies depending on the armor of the target). When you start to stack buffs on them, the difference is further amplified.

Furthermore, against most normal shooting swordmasters are equally tough as phoenix guard, however not against war machines that tend to have a rend characteristic, in which case phoenix guard are tougher.

In larger units though, phoenix guard will have the edge with their 2" range, since not all models will be able to stand in base contact with the enemy.

I would say that they fill slightly different niches - if you want a smaller hard-hitting unit (5-10 models), then swordmasters is the way to go. However, if you want a larger unit that can take a beating (20+ models), then phoenix guard are better. Either way, both types of units have their uses.

@Solaris:

I've used Swordmasters extensively and I've faced them as an opponent, both them and Phoenix Guard.

The durability of the Phoenix Guard makes all the difference me thinks. No matter the rend of the weapon and even for mortal wounds they get a 4+ save. This is huge.
Purely as killers they are worse than Swordmasters but the resillience means that if the combat does not end in the first turn, they'll surpass them even in the offence (as they'll have more models after the attacks of the enemy unit).

To me the strongest HE battleline possible is a line of Sisters of Averlorn and as many Phoenix Guards standing behind them hitting with their 2" range.

@Siegfried: Yes, that is a very valid point, I didn't consider subsequent turns. That definitely does give the phoenix guard an edge, which is also reflected in most comp packs.

@Haechi: That's a neat trick to keep in mind when the scenario allows you to play that way. However, in most scenarios you cannot stay back and wait for the opponent to come to you, since you have to proactively go for your objectives. In that case you have a few choices. You can move everything forward, in which case you lose your ability to shoot twice with your sisters. You can stay back with everything, in which case your phoenix guard won't see combat the whole battle and are essentially dead weight. Or, you can move your phoenix guard around your sisters, so that you can make use of both units, but in that case you would have been better off deploying them differently to begin with.

I don't know, I'm skeptic toward that sort of formation where you put different units together. Sure, it might be good at times, so it's a nice thing to keep in mind, but in many cases you want to keep your units separate in order to maximize your versatility. That's just my experience though.

Just move everything forward. I'm not using the Sisters for the double shot as much as for the counter charge shot.

Alright, gonna try that out. In essence the sisters will act as a screen for the phoenix guard and take the brunt of the damage, after which the phoenix guard will pile in and wreck face.

 Haechi wrote:
Just move everything forward. I'm not using the Sisters for the double shot as much as for the counter charge shot.

I'm not so sure about these guys to be honest (or ladies). The charge shot is nice but when facing 4 ironguts or 10 bulls .... thats not going to do a whole, especially with 0 rend. Unless you run like 20 of them? And if you run that many thats a lot of points that can be used towards the phoenix guard or sword maters. I dunno... Im just not sold on this unit just yet but could be 100% wrong.

I do have some wood elves glade guard.. maybe ill proxy them in for the sisters just to see how they do.

Primary armies I will fight again are: Ogres, Skaven, Dwarves, possibly Lizardmen

Maybe this thread should be moved to the tactics section.

I like them a lot actually, mainly for the double shot rule. What I do with them is first turn I run them into a strategic position where I can cover important parts of the battlefield with their bows, and then I just sit there and fire off arrows, occasionally buffing them with my Sea Helm's command ability. With a unit of 10, that's 22 shots a turn with a 3+/2+ profile against Chaos and when within 8" of a Sea Helm which is true 90% of the time.

Without buffing them with the Sea Helm Command, they deal on average 12.2 wounds per shooting phase, which equates to killing 2 Bulls or 1.5 Ironguts.
When buffing them with the Sea Helm, they deal instead on average 19 wounds per turn, which means 3 dead Bulls or 2.5 dead Ironguts.

That's some significant damage. Especially against Skaven, where they get +1 to wound, they are rather lethal, and I've never regretted bringing them.

I see what you are saying. You may score that many wounds but dont forget about armor/cover save + the Bulls have a lookout gnoblar.

I dunno i still dont see how you just move them sit them anywhere the whole game.

Ogres - charge in close enough to get a thundertusk in which has 18" icy blast range.

Lizardmen - using serpahon and their formation, can in the backline first round of the game. Chameleon skinks also first round of the game.

Dwarves, they are susceptible to all of their artillery

Skaven - someone units have that dig underground ability (sorry I dont know much about these guys, I just started playing them).

I am not saying this unit is bad by any means. But playing them I wouldn't expect to get the double shots very often.

But please come back with something you have experience, i need some ranged power for my HE army and would loved to be convinced to pick these models up lol.

Right now all I have is ONE bolt thrower and a unit of Ellyrian Reavers. The Reavers are kinda nice because they are very mobile and get double shots when they are away from the enemy.

I was playing a 3 way match and my buddy was using the HE army. These things got really annoying lol

The command ability.. Im assuming you mean for the Lothern Sea Helm, I dont see it on GW's website? Which model is it?

Armor was already included in the calculations, that is the amount of damage suffered by the units after saves.

Sure, there are things that can kill your Sisters, but then the other threats in your list are left alone. If the unit of Sisters is the only dangerous part of your army, then you should really look over your list :p Also, by keeping them close to the rest of your army, they really aren't all that susceptible. If you use them properly, your enemy will have to commit to be able to kill them, and then you can punish them for that.

The Ellyrian Reavers I haven't used much, though I have 15 of them so I should really try them out. Especially now that I see that they aren't really all that expensive in SCGT which my group has recently started using.

I usually field 2 Bolt Throwers together with either 10 Sisters of Avelorn or 20 High Elf Archers as the ranged components of my army, which has worked out great so far. Apart from their Storm of Arrows ability, Archers deal a fair amount less damage than the Sisters, so I'm leaning towards just sticking to the Sisters from now on.

Shadow Warriors are also an interesting option that I haven't tried out yet since I haven't assembled my box. In their basic setup they deal the least damage out of all the options, but if you have Alith Anar they deal the second highest damage after the Sisters. They also offer some cool tactical possibilities.

Here is a Sea Helm model, but you can really use any HE hero model to represent one as long as you paint it appropriately. I use the Lothern Sea Guard unit champion from the Island of Blood kit, but feel free to use whatever.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Lothern-Skycutter

Solaris wrote:
Armor was already included in the calculations, that is the amount of damage suffered by the units after saves.

Sure, there are things that can kill your Sisters, but then the other threats in your list are left alone. If the unit of Sisters is the only dangerous part of your army, then you should really look over your list :p Also, by keeping them close to the rest of your army, they really aren't all that susceptible. If you use them properly, your enemy will have to commit to be able to kill them, and then you can punish them for that.

The Ellyrian Reavers I haven't used much, though I have 15 of them so I should really try them out. Especially now that I see that they aren't really all that expensive in SCGT which my group has recently started using.

I usually field 2 Bolt Throwers together with either 10 Sisters of Avelorn or 20 High Elf Archers as the ranged components of my army, which has worked out great so far. Apart from their Storm of Arrows ability, Archers deal a fair amount less damage than the Sisters, so I'm leaning towards just sticking to the Sisters from now on.

Shadow Warriors are also an interesting option that I haven't tried out yet since I haven't assembled my box. In their basic setup they deal the least damage out of all the options, but if you have Alith Anar they deal the second highest damage after the Sisters. They also offer some cool tactical possibilities.

Here is a Sea Helm model, but you can really use any HE hero model to represent one as long as you paint it appropriately. I use the Lothern Sea Guard unit champion from the Island of Blood kit, but feel free to use whatever.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Lothern-Skycutter

Oh i dont have the sisters, someone from the thread said they liked them and I just said I wasnt crazy about them haha. Ya i seen that skycutter but his ability has to do with fly units and charging, not rerolling any rolls?

Sure, but put him on the ground and his ability becomes the reroll hit, wound and save rolls :p

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I see what you are saying. You may score that many wounds but dont forget about armor/cover save + the Bulls have a lookout gnoblar.

I dunno i still dont see how you just move them sit them anywhere the whole game.

Ogres - charge in close enough to get a thundertusk in which has 18" icy blast range.

Lizardmen - using serpahon and their formation, can in the backline first round of the game. Chameleon skinks also first round of the game.

Dwarves, they are susceptible to all of their artillery

Skaven - someone units have that dig underground ability (sorry I dont know much about these guys, I just started playing them).

I am not saying this unit is bad by any means. But playing them I wouldn't expect to get the double shots very often.

But please come back with something you have experience, i need some ranged power for my HE army and would loved to be convinced to pick these models up lol.

Right now all I have is ONE bolt thrower and a unit of Ellyrian Reavers. The Reavers are kinda nice because they are very mobile and get double shots when they are away from the enemy.

I was playing a 3 way match and my buddy was using the HE army. These things got really annoying lol

The command ability.. Im assuming you mean for the Lothern Sea Helm, I dont see it on GW's website? Which model is it?

Well obviously you have to take into account the Sisters aren't the only unit on your side of the table. So, sure, they all can send stuff after them, and everybody has means to kill them, but they're not always the priority target or sometimes going after them means leaving alone a more important target. You won't lose the game just because you lost the Sisters. And the reason I like them more than any other archers is because even though my opponent finds a way to charge them turn one, unlike other archers, they will fire at least once.

I plan to get 3 bolt throwers and see how that works.

They fill different niches, it all depends on what your goals are for a given game. Some points on the different ranged HE units (any calculations are based on scgt comp and on them being able to use their special rules i.e. extra shots for reavers and sisters and hit bonus for shadow warriors):

Bolt Throwers
Manouverability - very poor
Range - very good
Damage - good
Can be buffed - no

Sisters of Avelorn
Manouverability - poor
Range - average
Damage - very good
Can be buffed - yes

Archers
Manouverability - average
Range - average
Damage - poor (except for one turn when it is very good)
Can be buffed - yes

Shadow Warriors
Manouverability - good
Range - average
Damage - average
Can be buffed - yes

Ellyrian Reavers
Manouverability - very good
Range - average
Damage - average
Can be buffed - yes

As you can see, they all have their different strengths and weaknesses. I've found that in most games, a combination of them gives you the most tactical and strategical options. Actually, after doing this comparison I'm starting to become really interested in putting together my Shadow Warriors, since they are so manouverable and their damage skyrockets if you have Alith Anar in the army.