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Because as it currently stands, they're so useless no one would really use them. Which means that they might as well not exist.

I see two big problems with them; their absolutely terrible stat lines and equipment, and the fact that they have to be disembarked from a transport vehicle to use most of the powers they might generate. Which, considering that they're still a small squad of squishy Guardsmen, means that they will die almost as soon as something targets them.

So here's my suggestions for improvements:

Wyrdvane Pysker: WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 LD:8

Unit Size: 5 Wyrdvane Pyskers
Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear:
* Flak Armour
* Laspistol
* Force Weapon
* Frag Grenades
* Refractor Field

Special Rules:

* Brotherhood Of Pyskers (Mastery Level One)

Options:
* May include up to five additional Wyrdvane Pyskers
* The squad may take a Chimera or Taurox as a Dedicated Transport

So, I've changed their stat line to bring them into line with Guardsmen, but with an increased Leadership Value due to their background. I've also given them force weapons to make them actually capable of posing a threat on the battlefield. Finally, since they need a way to survive being on foot for more than a turn, I've given them Refractor Fields. I would justify the change by saying that as 'Battle Pyskers', they should be physically conditioned and trained to the same standard as Guardsmen. These guys could be Pyskers who were brought in as kids and trained from an early age to be physic soldiers. Those Pyskers brought in later life and/or who can't get to that level wouldn't be allowed on the battlefield, and so get used elsewhere. As for the force weapon, I would say that they've spent their whole life in the Guard training with them, and the refractor field is protection against the warp and because getting usable Battle Pyskers is so tricky the IG take the unusual step of trying to keep them alive. And finally I also gave them frag grenades because they're soldiers and it suits them.

I don't know what to change their points cost to though. It will have to go up no doubt.

Any thoughts on these proposals?

Have you checked out the Mont'ka AM detachments? They made wyrdvane pretty beastly.(Successfully cast on 2+s instead of 4+s, nearby primaris psykers can use whatever psyker abilities the wyrdvane's rolled as well as his own, and for every 5 wyrdvane near the primaris, they generate an extra warp die.)

slip wrote:
Have you checked out the Mont'ka AM detachments? They made wyrdvane pretty beastly.(Successfully cast on 2+s instead of 4+s, nearby primaris psykers can use whatever psyker abilities the wyrdvane's rolled as well as his own, and for every 5 wyrdvane near the primaris, they generate an extra warp die.)

Oh yes, I know of that Formation, and it is awesome.

Horrfying.

The psyker squad as-is may not be amazing, but it certainly isn't bad. with the formation they are even pretty darn impressive.

This monstrosity? utterly overpowered. like, wraithknight level of cheese.
Refractor fields and force weapons? are you crazy? you made it so there is literally no reason to ever take anything BUT this unit. they are supposed to be a niche support unit, not a major threat in their own right.

That's a completely laughable overreaction.

If you compare this unit to a unit of Fulgurite Electro-Priests, the Priests have better weapon skill, more attacks, better leadership, a similar melee weapon with a chance of instant death, a similar invunerable save (which can be ramped up to storm shield levels by destroying an enemy unit in assault), boosted Hammer of Wraith, Canticles of the Omnissiah, Feel No Pain and Zealot.

Meanwhile, since these are Pyskers, their powers are random. Unless you got really lucky with the powers, I would say that the Priests or any other dedicated assault unit would still win against these Pyskers in a fight.

Well, that's kind of the problem right there. Wyrdvane shouldn't be in a fight. They're a support unit and your rules turn them into mini GKs. Wyrdvane should be in the back, getting a 5+ cover from other units and turning your lasguns into re-rollable rending flashlights of death. If you were to take any unit out of the AM and look at it individually, they suck. I mean even beyond wyrdvane, look at the platoon command squads. They'd get wiped by a unit of gretchin! Bullgryns are supposed to be monsters, but they'd get whopped by any other CC unit in the game. Throw in a unit of vets with camo however and the bulls are giving them 3+ cover saves and the platoon gives them 50% more shots or ignore cover, and the wyrdvane gives them re-rolls and rend. Now suddenly 4 subpar units in combination are actually kind of scary. Your changes make the psykers a stand alone unit which is out of touch with the rest of the AM codex.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Horrfying.

The psyker squad as-is may not be amazing, but it certainly isn't bad. with the formation they are even pretty darn impressive.

This monstrosity? utterly overpowered. like, wraithknight level of cheese.
Refractor fields and force weapons? are you crazy? you made it so there is literally no reason to ever take anything BUT this unit. they are supposed to be a niche support unit, not a major threat in their own right.

A WS3/S3/W1/I3 infantry unit is "a major threat" because they have a 5++ and force weapons?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Horrfying.

The psyker squad as-is may not be amazing, but it certainly isn't bad. with the formation they are even pretty darn impressive.

This monstrosity? utterly overpowered. like, wraithknight level of cheese.
Refractor fields and force weapons? are you crazy? you made it so there is literally no reason to ever take anything BUT this unit. they are supposed to be a niche support unit, not a major threat in their own right.

A WS3/S3/W1/I3 infantry unit is "a major threat" because they have a 5++ and force weapons?

...and can cast prescience and misfortune so they can autokill just about anything in game for 60 points.

1. How many WC's are you casting to reliably get off precsience, misfortune and force in a single turn?

2. How is precience, misfortune and force going to save them from getting torn to pieces by something as basic as a squad of boyz?

3. How are they ever reaching combat without getting shot to pieces with a 6'' move and T3?

In practice, this unit at best would be a defensive one. It's offensive capabilities are laughable.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
1. How many WC's are you casting to reliably get off precsience, misfortune and force in a single turn?

2. How is precience, misfortune and force going to save them from getting torn to pieces by something as basic as a squad of boyz?

3. How are they ever reaching combat without getting shot to pieces with a 6'' move and T3?

In practice, this unit at best would be a defensive one. It's offensive capabilities are laughable.

1- You'd reliably get all those on 5 dice considering they successfully cast on 2+'s instead of 4+. The psykana detachment would get you a minimum of 7 dice, and you could take 2 for about 700 points, giving you 14.

2-They strike before the boyz. Boyz have a lower I.

3-They have two different options for dedicated transports, and psykana psykers already share spells so if any other psyker knows invisibility, shroud, foreboding, or pretty much any biomancy than T3 isn't really a problem!

I agree, it is a defensive unit, so why are you arguing they should be given force weapons of all things?

Bare in mind, if the Wyrdvanes were changed to my suggestions, the price would definitely need to be jacked up as I said before.

I don't like them having force weapons because it's a pointless upgrade for them. There stat line is garbage for combat so it's never going to come into play. A group of tactical marines would punch them out in no time. Giving them force weapons would force you to jump up the cost for little in tangible benefit.

Why don't you just use the Psykana division? It's not like, the single best thing in the universe, but it's pretty freakin' strong. It's rapidly turned into my favorite thing to run as support for my guard - I can practically twin-link everything in my army.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't like them having force weapons because it's a pointless upgrade for them. There stat line is garbage for combat so it's never going to come into play. A group of tactical marines would punch them out in no time. Giving them force weapons would force you to jump up the cost for little in tangible benefit.

I guess I could ditch the force weapons. A shame really because I thought that it would be pretty cool. But I would insist upon keeping the refactor fields. They need a way to help survive being on foot.

And of course I can always use the Psykana Division, but I would like to use them in smaller games as a stand alone unit as well, where the division is too expensive.

Giving them force weapons, not swords but weapons... makes them one of the deadliest units in the game for its point cost. Having a squad that has to potential to all have force axes is really nasty.


You could perhaps give the "champion" a force staff that is kinda ok since he has only 1 attack and it will only be ap4.

The other thing to do would be to give them their old power back.

Limiting them to Force Staffs might be a decent compromise. The models are carrying staffs after all.