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Maelstrom of war where mobility is key at 1500-1850 points, what do you take?

it all depends on how you guys are playing the mission. are you both using age of darkness FOCs? how are you all decide what can score? are you limiting formations? etc.

can't really help all to much untill things like that are know. at it's core, take 2-3 tactical squads and a terminator squad or two, especially if you're playing where only your troops + other select units can score.

 Brennonjw wrote:
it all depends on how you guys are playing the mission. are you both using age of darkness FOCs? how are you all decide what can score? are you limiting formations? etc.

can't really help all to much untill things like that are know. at it's core, take 2-3 tactical squads and a terminator squad or two, especially if you're playing where only your troops + other select units can score.

Usually 40k rules but 30k can use the age of darkness FOC. So anything can score. 2-3 tacticals seems like a huge points sink with the min squad tax and no special weapons. PotL RoW maybe? My army is Iron Warriors, so I generally have a lot of heavy support, but obviously anything on the LCAL is fair game.

MaxZ wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
it all depends on how you guys are playing the mission. are you both using age of darkness FOCs? how are you all decide what can score? are you limiting formations? etc.

can't really help all to much untill things like that are know. at it's core, take 2-3 tactical squads and a terminator squad or two, especially if you're playing where only your troops + other select units can score.

Usually 40k rules but 30k can use the age of darkness FOC. So anything can score. 2-3 tacticals seems like a huge points sink with the min squad tax and no special weapons. PotL RoW maybe? My army is Iron Warriors, so I generally have a lot of heavy support, but obviously anything on the LCAL is fair game.

PotL is a really meh RoW that punishes you if all of your vet. tacticals and terminator squads die. I would get out of the 40k mind set of tactical squads being a point sink. while expensive, they hold objectives well, take objectives well, and can even dish out a decent amount of damage.

 Brennonjw wrote:

MaxZ wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
it all depends on how you guys are playing the mission. are you both using age of darkness FOCs? how are you all decide what can score? are you limiting formations? etc.

can't really help all to much untill things like that are know. at it's core, take 2-3 tactical squads and a terminator squad or two, especially if you're playing where only your troops + other select units can score.

Usually 40k rules but 30k can use the age of darkness FOC. So anything can score. 2-3 tacticals seems like a huge points sink with the min squad tax and no special weapons. PotL RoW maybe? My army is Iron Warriors, so I generally have a lot of heavy support, but obviously anything on the LCAL is fair game.

PotL is a really meh RoW that punishes you if all of your vet. tacticals and terminator squads die. I would get out of the 40k mind set of tactical squads being a point sink. while expensive, they hold objectives well, take objectives well, and can even dish out a decent amount of damage.

I find them to be very immobile. In 40k malestorm of war games, you often have to grab objectives 12+ inches away to get vps. Tac squads just can't compete with bike troops or eldar jet bikes in that regards.

true to a point, but if you have a tide of bodies pushing an objective, a few bikes would be hard pressed to not get bogged down. When something has a foot print as large as a full tactical blob, it's also difficult for the bikes to maneuver around them as well. if you're worried about speed, an outrider squad, some jump pack units, or a smaller squad in a rhino (something like a plasma/melta support squad would be effective) could work as a forward objective grabber.

For IWs I usually run 3 tac squads. 2 x 10 in Rhinos and 1 x 20 w/ CCW upgrade.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
For IWs I usually run 3 tac squads. 2 x 10 in Rhinos and 1 x 20 w/ CCW upgrade.

What are your general tactics for each of these squads? I like the sound of that set up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
true to a point, but if you have a tide of bodies pushing an objective, a few bikes would be hard pressed to not get bogged down. When something has a foot print as large as a full tactical blob, it's also difficult for the bikes to maneuver around them as well. if you're worried about speed, an outrider squad, some jump pack units, or a smaller squad in a rhino (something like a plasma/melta support squad would be effective) could work as a forward objective grabber.

So you think run the 20 man tac squad as a board presence unit and stretch it out to physically prevent squads from moving places? I guess place your objectives as close as possible, so the squad can get more than one. I feel like it would easily be tangled up in assault, then with pile in moves become useless at at taking objectives.

Do you run the 20 man squad when playing 40k?

MaxZ wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
For IWs I usually run 3 tac squads. 2 x 10 in Rhinos and 1 x 20 w/ CCW upgrade.

What are your general tactics for each of these squads? I like the sound of that set up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
true to a point, but if you have a tide of bodies pushing an objective, a few bikes would be hard pressed to not get bogged down. When something has a foot print as large as a full tactical blob, it's also difficult for the bikes to maneuver around them as well. if you're worried about speed, an outrider squad, some jump pack units, or a smaller squad in a rhino (something like a plasma/melta support squad would be effective) could work as a forward objective grabber.

So you think run the 20 man tac squad as a board presence unit and stretch it out to physically prevent squads from moving places? I guess place your objectives as close as possible, so the squad can get more than one. I feel like it would easily be tangled up in assault, then with pile in moves become useless at at taking objectives.

Do you run the 20 man squad when playing 40k?

as to the first part: nope, normal spacing, but here's how the help: at max spread, a 20-man tactical can cover OVER 2 feet of board space in a straight line, and still be a few marines 'deep' so to speak. as such, you can use a larger squad to deny faster units from going into certain locations. While they could be tied up in close combat they can also pump out a large number of attacks (with and without extra CCWs), their fury of the legion punishes enemy units for sitting to close, and they are all around a solid squad at larger numbers.

as to the second: When I play against 40k, it's generally at the 2,000 point level, and even then I bring at LEAST 2 20-man tactical squads with apothecaries. while it's expensive (anywhere from 480-700 points depending on how kitted out you wanna be), it's durable as all hell, and a rather large thread/area denial unit, and packs a surprising punch. Pair this with some terminators, special units, or anything else really, and you have a more durable, useful objective grabbing force that PotL with limits allies, punishes you for loosing all of your super fragile squads (since 10 marines, or smaller since it sounds like you're playing in a bit of a 40k mind set in this set up), and really doesn't give much of a bonus overall compared to most other RoWs.

I don't really know how to answer this question. I have zero desire to play 1500pt Maelstrom games against 40k armies since Maelstrom is one of the things that got me to sell off all my 40k stuff and focus on 30k. I guess my answer as to how to play small games against 40k would be "Don't, play larger games using 30k missions."

I kind of have to echo the above comment from Toofast. I don't know why you would do that to yourself. 30K point scheme already makes small games painful, you're apparently allowing formations and the like for 40K armies, and Maelstrom is the type of game where the mobility and cost disparity between the two armies really comes into play.

I suggest just asking your friends to kick you in the crotch until you're satisfied. Should be cheaper and take less time, with the same end result.

HandofMars wrote:
I kind of have to echo the above comment from Toofast. I don't know why you would do that to yourself. 30K point scheme already makes small games painful, you're apparently allowing formations and the like for 40K armies, and Maelstrom is the type of game where the mobility and cost disparity between the two armies really comes into play.

I suggest just asking your friends to kick you in the crotch until you're satisfied. Should be cheaper and take less time, with the same end result.

This doesn't help when there aren't people to play 30k against, and isn't what I was asking about in the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:

MaxZ wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
For IWs I usually run 3 tac squads. 2 x 10 in Rhinos and 1 x 20 w/ CCW upgrade.

What are your general tactics for each of these squads? I like the sound of that set up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
true to a point, but if you have a tide of bodies pushing an objective, a few bikes would be hard pressed to not get bogged down. When something has a foot print as large as a full tactical blob, it's also difficult for the bikes to maneuver around them as well. if you're worried about speed, an outrider squad, some jump pack units, or a smaller squad in a rhino (something like a plasma/melta support squad would be effective) could work as a forward objective grabber.

So you think run the 20 man tac squad as a board presence unit and stretch it out to physically prevent squads from moving places? I guess place your objectives as close as possible, so the squad can get more than one. I feel like it would easily be tangled up in assault, then with pile in moves become useless at at taking objectives.

Do you run the 20 man squad when playing 40k?

as to the first part: nope, normal spacing, but here's how the help: at max spread, a 20-man tactical can cover OVER 2 feet of board space in a straight line, and still be a few marines 'deep' so to speak. as such, you can use a larger squad to deny faster units from going into certain locations. While they could be tied up in close combat they can also pump out a large number of attacks (with and without extra CCWs), their fury of the legion punishes enemy units for sitting to close, and they are all around a solid squad at larger numbers.

as to the second: When I play against 40k, it's generally at the 2,000 point level, and even then I bring at LEAST 2 20-man tactical squads with apothecaries. while it's expensive (anywhere from 480-700 points depending on how kitted out you wanna be), it's durable as all hell, and a rather large thread/area denial unit, and packs a surprising punch. Pair this with some terminators, special units, or anything else really, and you have a more durable, useful objective grabbing force that PotL with limits allies, punishes you for loosing all of your super fragile squads (since 10 marines, or smaller since it sounds like you're playing in a bit of a 40k mind set in this set up), and really doesn't give much of a bonus overall compared to most other RoWs.

Thanks, I'll try that out, I guess it's best to try play to the strengths of the list anyway. What units do you/would you consider taking from the crusade army list to counter common 40k styles of playing? Definitely a list would need some anti MC and anti Superheavy. I was thinking quad mortars with shatter shells and phosphex are always a good unit that can hurt the MCs with the strength 8 shatter shells and melta bomb vet squads or breachers to get at the knights. Tactical support squad with Melta in a dreadclaw maybe? A Sicaran could be a good counter to grav tanks.

Take an armoured column, so you can replace the troop tax with fast Predators, and can take additional troop choices as support squads in fast Rhinos. Sicarans would be elite choices (or a BS5 warlord choice), leaving heavy support free for things like Vindicares, Scorpius, and Venators.

Interesting idea, I dont think many 40k armies would be ready to face that.

I have been using the armoured breakthrough rite of war for the tank shock events around these parts. I've been pretty successful at the 500 and 750 point levels the games have been played at. It has enough durability and mobility to do okay in maelstrom games too.

I've also had good success at 500 points with pride of the legion lists in zone mortalis games.