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I will go back to my FLGS to play one of these lists very soon. What do y'all think? This is from the 7th edition Space Marine codex

List 1

1193

HQ
Chief Librarian Tigurius 165 (warlord)
Powers: Haemorrhage, Purge Soul, Molten Beam

Troops
Tactical Squad 145
Flamer

Scout Squad 84
4 Sniper Rifles
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles

Elites
7 Sternguard Veterans 184
Flamer
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles

Dreadnought 100

6 Terminators 210

Formations
Reclusiam Command Squad 305
Chaplain with Jump Pack
Command squad with Company standard, company champion, apothecary, flamer
Razorback with storm bolter

List 2

1453
HQ
Chief Librarian Tigurius 165 (warlord)
Powers: Haemorrhage, Purge Soul, Molten Beam

Librarian 90
Mastery Level 2
Powers: Psychic Maelstrom, Crush

Troops
Tactical Squad Alpha 165
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles

Tactical Squad Beta (5-man) 85
Plasma Gun

Scout Squad 84
4 sniper rifles
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles

Elites
7 Sternguard Veterans 184
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles
Flamer

Dreadnought 100

6 Terminators 210

Fast Attack
1 Land Speeder Tornado 65
Assault Cannon

Formations
Reclusiam Command Squad 305
Chaplain with Jump Pack
Command squad with Company standard, company champion, apothecary, flamer
Razorback with storm bolter

List 3

1668
HQ
Chief Librarian Tigurius 165 (warlord)
Powers: Haemorrhage, Purge Soul, Molten Beam

Librarian 90
Mastery Level 2
Powers: Psychic Maelstrom, Crush

Troops
Tactical Squad Alpha 165
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles

Tactical Squad Beta (5-man) 85
Plasma Gun

Scout Squad 84
4 sniper rifles
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles
Elites
7 Sternguard Veterans 184
Missile Launcher with Flakk Missiles
Flamer

Dreadnought 100

6 Terminators 210

Fast Attack
1 Land Speeder Tornado 65
Assault Cannon

1 Land Speeder Typhoon 70
Typhoon Missile Launchers

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad 145
2 Plasma Cannons
Lascannon
Heavy Bolter
Sergeant with plasma pistol

Formations
Reclusiam Command Squad 305
Chaplain with Jump Pack
Command squad with Company standard, company champion, apothecary, flamer
Razorback with storm bolter

Thoughts on these lists?

They seem a bit unfocused.

You play where you can choose powers? Generally those are rolled before the game.

Flack missiles are overpriced for what they do. If you feel the need for AA fire and they are your only option, concentrate them into a dev squad, rather then spread out over your army. The last thing you want is one guy in the squad doing all the work while his brothers sit and watch.

Full 10 man tac squads should probably take the special first, rather then the heavy. They tend to work alongside massed bolter fire better. Plus they want to be moving forward, rather then sitting back shooting.

Scout squad is mostly OK. I’d drop the flack and take camo cloaks.

IMHO the only weapon worth taking the special ammo away from the sternguard for the the heavy flamer.

Make sure every gun in a dev squad has a similar target and range. Mixing LCs and HBs never ends well. Also, plasma pistols, while cool looking, are not really worth the points. And that’s in places where they would see more use then a dev squad.

The chaplain must join the command squad and can’t leave it. Giving him a jump packs means they can’t embark into the razor.

Are the terminators just naked SB/powerfist ones?

Your point values are also unusual numbers.

Do you have any more transports? Or just the one razor? Your dread wants a pod, and your tacs could use rides as well.

Just trying to use models you have listed, here is a ~1,000 point list.

Tigurius
5 naked sternguard, razorback

5 scouts, ML, snipers, cloaks
10 man tac, HB/plasma, plasma pistol sarge
5 man tac, LC

HB/AC speeder
HB/TML speeder

5 man Dev squad, 4xML w/flack

The dread realy wants to have a pod, but could run up the table if needed. Go venerable in that case.
The second librarian could take divination and hang with the devs.

Adding them and stretching some gear options might get you to a 1,250 list. I feel that going higher then that you are adding a lot of bodies that are mostly going to be there to soak wounds. If you have more stuff in your collection, that might help.

 Nevelon wrote:
They seem a bit unfocused.

You play where you can choose powers? Generally those are rolled before the game.

Flack missiles are overpriced for what they do. If you feel the need for AA fire and they are your only option, concentrate them into a dev squad, rather then spread out over your army. The last thing you want is one guy in the squad doing all the work while his brothers sit and watch.

Full 10 man tac squads should probably take the special first, rather then the heavy. They tend to work alongside massed bolter fire better. Plus they want to be moving forward, rather then sitting back shooting.

Scout squad is mostly OK. I’d drop the flack and take camo cloaks.

IMHO the only weapon worth taking the special ammo away from the sternguard for the the heavy flamer.

Make sure every gun in a dev squad has a similar target and range. Mixing LCs and HBs never ends well. Also, plasma pistols, while cool looking, are not really worth the points. And that’s in places where they would see more use then a dev squad.

The chaplain must join the command squad and can’t leave it. Giving him a jump packs means they can’t embark into the razor.

Are the terminators just naked SB/powerfist ones?

Your point values are also unusual numbers.

Do you have any more transports? Or just the one razor? Your dread wants a pod, and your tacs could use rides as well.

Just trying to use models you have listed, here is a ~1,000 point list.

Tigurius
5 naked sternguard, razorback

5 scouts, ML, snipers, cloaks
10 man tac, HB/plasma, plasma pistol sarge
5 man tac, LC

HB/AC speeder
HB/TML speeder

5 man Dev squad, 4xML w/flack

The dread realy wants to have a pod, but could run up the table if needed. Go venerable in that case.
The second librarian could take divination and hang with the devs.

Adding them and stretching some gear options might get you to a 1,250 list. I feel that going higher then that you are adding a lot of bodies that are mostly going to be there to soak wounds. If you have more stuff in your collection, that might help.

I'm using what I have, and don't want to proxy.

I was unaware you were to roll for powers at the beginning of the game

My scouts have camo cloaks modelled onto them, so I'll update that.

What makes Flakk missiles overpriced for what they do?

I don't have a sternguard with a heavy flamer

Why does mixing HB and LCs never end well?

I'll remove the jump pack from the Chaplain.

The terminators came with the AOBR set, so yes, they are naked SB\powerfist termies

I used a calculator

I just have the one razorback. No other transports.

I guess I should completely rewrite my lists.

Thanks for your help.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I was unaware you were to roll for powers at the beginning of the game

Some psykers do come with pre-generated powers (Grey Knights mostly I think), but everyone else rolls before the game. One of the main benefits of Tiggy is that he gets to re-roll when generating powers, making it much more likely to get what you want.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
What makes Flakk missiles overpriced for what they do?

Let's take the most vulnerable of flyers - AV10 all round with 3HP's as an example.
Firing all three of the Flakk missiles in your army at it, on average 2 will hit. Now on average (S7 vs AV10), one and a bit of those will cause damage, but because they get no bonus to the vehicle damage table you need a 6 followed by a 1 or 2 to cause the flyer to crash and burn. So you've probably caused one or two hull points damage to it, so to kill it you'll need to spend another turn shooting it. In those two turns, the rest of your Sternguard, Tacticals and Scouts will be standing around twiddling their thumbs, or making one-in-thirty-six pot-shots at the flyer, instead of doing something useful.
And then remember the flyer can Jink for a 4+ save...
Even in an ideal world they're lackluster at the job they are designed for, and expensive to boot.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why does mixing HB and LCs never end well?

A unit can only (except in a few circumstances) fire at a single target. This means that if firing at light infantry (the heavy bolter's preferred target) the expensive lascannon is killing a 10 point model. If firing at a vehicle or big mostrous creature (the lascannon's preferred target) the heavy bolter won't be able to scratch it.

It's all about making the most of your firepower, and not wasting points on upgrades that never get used.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
The terminators came with the AOBR set, so yes, they are naked SB\powerfist termies

Ask around your local group - there's bound to be a space marine player that can give you a spare terminator heavy weapon.

 Quanar wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
I was unaware you were to roll for powers at the beginning of the game

Some psykers do come with pre-generated powers (Grey Knights mostly I think), but everyone else rolls before the game. One of the main benefits of Tiggy is that he gets to re-roll when generating powers, making it much more likely to get what you want.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
What makes Flakk missiles overpriced for what they do?

Let's take the most vulnerable of flyers - AV10 all round with 3HP's as an example.
Firing all three of the Flakk missiles in your army at it, on average 2 will hit. Now on average (S7 vs AV10), one and a bit of those will cause damage, but because they get no bonus to the vehicle damage table you need a 6 followed by a 1 or 2 to cause the flyer to crash and burn. So you've probably caused one or two hull points damage to it, so to kill it you'll need to spend another turn shooting it. In those two turns, the rest of your Sternguard, Tacticals and Scouts will be standing around twiddling their thumbs, or making one-in-thirty-six pot-shots at the flyer, instead of doing something useful.
And then remember the flyer can Jink for a 4+ save...
Even in an ideal world they're lackluster at the job they are designed for, and expensive to boot.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why does mixing HB and LCs never end well?

A unit can only (except in a few circumstances) fire at a single target. This means that if firing at light infantry (the heavy bolter's preferred target) the expensive lascannon is killing a 10 point model. If firing at a vehicle or big mostrous creature (the lascannon's preferred target) the heavy bolter won't be able to scratch it.

It's all about making the most of your firepower, and not wasting points on upgrades that never get used.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
The terminators came with the AOBR set, so yes, they are naked SB\powerfist termies

Ask around your local group - there's bound to be a space marine player that can give you a spare terminator heavy weapon.

Thanks for your help too.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I'm using what I have, and don't want to proxy.

I was unaware you were to roll for powers at the beginning of the game

My scouts have camo cloaks modelled onto them, so I'll update that.

What makes Flakk missiles overpriced for what they do?

I don't have a sternguard with a heavy flamer

Why does mixing HB and LCs never end well?

I'll remove the jump pack from the Chaplain.

The terminators came with the AOBR set, so yes, they are naked SB\powerfist termies

I used a calculator

I just have the one razorback. No other transports.

I guess I should completely rewrite my lists.

Thanks for your help.

I think it was 5th were we just got to pick our powers. Those were good times to be a Librarian. Tig has some special rules that help him get what he needs, but it’s still not 100%.

There are a number of problems with flack missiles. One is the price. 15 points for the ML, and then another 10 for the flack. That’s 25 points! And that’s not counting the marine carrying it, or the squad he is with. If you stick one in a 5 man squad, you end up paying ~100 points for a single S7 shot. When you consider we have dedicated AA tanks that cost less then that, or our own flyers for a bit more, you start to see the problem. The other main issue is the fact that they are S7, AP4. So you shoot at a flyer, and assuming you hit (1/3 miss) you then roll to pen. Against the light stuff, you glance on a 3, and pen on a 4+. That gets worse vs. the tougher flyers. So the odds of getting any relevant damage done with a single shot are low. And you are wasting the rest of the squad while you take your hail mary shot at the flyer. Against FMCs, S7 is not that good at wounding, and they might get an armor/other save.

This is why I advocate taking them in a dev squad if you want to take them. You don’t have the issue with the rest of the squad fiddling their thumbs, because they are all shooting. And 4 shots is far more likely to generate a kill then 1.

Different people do different things with sternguard. I’m a big fan of HFs. Normally you don’t see them with anything but combis. YMMV.

Mixing guns is a matter of efficiency. You want a squad to be good at it’s job. It’s OK to diversify a little, to make them more flexible. But you should still make sure everyone can do the same thing. If they can’t, make sure the one who can have enough tools to be successful. HBs and LCs (almost) never want to shoot at the same thing. The HB is there to mulch light troops in the open, and the LC is for popping tanks. If you shoot at a tank, the HB is just going to bounce. If you are trying to thin out a horde, the LC might pop one ork out of the mob. Range is another issue. While MMs and LCs want to be shooting at the same thing, they do it at different ranges. MLs mix well with other guns. They are the ultimate jack-of-all-trades weapon.

On a related note, tactical squads have the same sort of issues with their special/heavy weapons. But this is also compounded by their bolters. Generally you want to be shooting at troop-like things, and the weapon options will make them better vs. certain types. But the full melta (MM/M, c-melta sarge) is an exception. While they can bolter down troops, they are also kitted out for popping tanks. It’s OK for them to waste a turn of bolter fire, because when they do go for an armored target, they are tossing enough shots into make it worth the time. It would not be worth it for 9 guys to sit idle while one brother takes a pot shot.

I like JP chaplains, but they really need a jump squad to go with. My main chaplain is magnetized to run both with and without one.

I like terminators, but they need a little something to help. I like a 5 man unit with an assault cannon and a chain fist. 5 stormbolters is not ver impressive, and it can be hard to get into CC to use the fists.

I don’t know how it is at your FLGS, but most of the ones around here build lists to specific points. Normally multiples of 250, with 1,850 being the odd duck. So seeing lists at “off” points is a little unusual.

I strongly recommend transports for marines. Most games involve getting to objectives. Even if you are just playing to kill, they help get your guys into optimal firing range safer, rather then getting shot up on the way there.