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Do the special units of scouts that the space wolf get always get to come on in the enemy deployment zone even in Alpha missions. 

only if infiltrators are allowed, if Alpha missions dont let you use the infiltrate rules than they set up normally with the rest of the army,

beef - the whole point is that they can come on anytime no matter whether infiltrate/deepstrike is available. I've NEVER set them up normally in any game, no matter the scenario. The FAQ does not imply that they can't use their rules every mission.

my bad i mixed up infiltrate with behind enemy lines, ironkodiak is absolutly right, you can use this all the time.. brain was not working, i always set them up behind enemy lines myself. they always appear from the enemies table edge unless the enemy does not have a table edge in which case you roll randomly to see what side they turn up from.

Be careful with this one. Their Infiltrators rule states that if infiltration is not allowed, they "must be set up normally", while the Operate Behind Enemy Lines rule says "Instead of being set up normally ... can be sent out". The only mission rule it tells you to ignore the lack of is Reserves.

Of course, it's moot because the scout infiltration rule gets replaced by the 4e infiltration USR which has no such text in it, and so it doesn't apply -- but along the same line of argumentation, Khornate Berserker Bikers have access to infiltration as well...

I wouldn't argue against someone doing so playing against me (as above, it is pure RAW), but to do so myself I'd have to argue that either "can be" is more specific than "must be" or abuse the classic 4e USR loophole, neither of which I'm particularly partial to doing.

Be careful with this one. Their Infiltrators rule states that if infiltration is not allowed, they "must be set up normally", while the Operate Behind Enemy Lines rule says "Instead of being set up normally ... can be sent out". The only mission rule it tells you to ignore the lack of is Reserves.

Why would it mention anything other than Reserves? Behind Enemy Lines is NOT Infiltration. It's a special rule that allows you to keep the Scouts in Reserve even when you don't normally get Reserves.

Infiltration has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Why would it mention anything other than Reserves? Behind Enemy Lines is NOT Infiltration.

Because their Infiltrators rule mandates normal setup if infiltration is not being used in the mission. It doesn't say that you don't get to infiltrate if infiltration is not allowed, it says you must set up normally if infiltration is not allowed. In effect, without abusing the USR loophole, using OBEL in a mission without infiltration is arguing that the "can be" in OBEL overrules the "must be" in their Infiltrators rule.

Infiltrate has nothing, what so ever, to do with Operate Behind Enemy Lines... Nothing.
Wolf Scouts can always use Operate Behind Enemy Lines, whether it´s an Alpha, Gamma or Omega game, ok..?

Posted By Wolf Lord Duregar on 06/06/2006 10:33 AM
Infiltrate has nothing, what so ever, to do with Operate Behind Enemy Lines... Nothing.
Wolf Scouts can always use Operate Behind Enemy Lines, whether it´s an Alpha, Gamma or Omega game, ok..?

Once again, read the rule, ok?

Infiltrators says you must set up normally if infiltration is not being used.  OBEL is an optional setup that is, specifically, not setting up normally.  OBEL doesn't make the rule go away.  4e USR does if you stretch "Infiltrators" to be the same as "Infiltrate", but even then you're on the same standing as infiltrating Khorne Berserker bikers.

So if Infiltration is not being used then no unit can deep strike either, because that would not be setting up normally, right?

I don't think so.

Space Wolf Scouts have two seperate special rules. Infiltration and OBEL. If Infiltration is not being used, they would have to set up normally, excpet for the fact that they have OBEL and that means they can utilize that rule "instead of setting up normally."

Posted By yakface on 06/06/2006 2:14 PM

So if Infiltration is not being used then no unit can deep strike either, because that would not be setting up normally, right?

I don't think so.

Space Wolf Scouts have two seperate special rules. Infiltration and OBEL. If Infiltration is not being used, they would have to set up normally, excpet for the fact that they have OBEL and that means they can utilize that rule "instead of setting up normally."

I should point out, again, that I don't expect anyone to play OBEL as such, but that's what the rules say.  The argument you're making is that the "can be" in OBEL overrides the "must be" in Infiltrators, which I don't think is apparent.  In short, you say "I can do so because it says I can instead of setting up normally", to which I reply "but then you fail to follow the Infiltrators rule which says you must set up normally", to which you repeat the above, and we get nowhere.  Speaking as a Space Wolf player, I find using OBEL when Infiltrate is not allowed to be taking the more advantageous interpretation of an unclear rule.  Any way you look at it, Infiltrators and OBEL are in opposition to each other, and I find the language in Infiltrators to be stronger.

Also, Infiltrators is a rule given to Wolf Scouts alone, it has no bearing on other Space Wolf units, it's specific to scouts who can't deep strike anyway.

A curiousity I discovered when perusing a couple of other codices for similar infiltration rules is that the old Tau codex (I don't have the new one handy) has two versions of Infiltrate in it -- Stealth Suits get one, and Kroot get another.  The Stealth Suit version has the "must set up normally" text while the Kroot version lacks it -- this might be expected, as stealth suits do have an alternate method of deployment (deep strike), which was seemingly disallowed if infiltration was not allowed by the rule text.  Kroot have no such alternate deployment method, and no such text in their version of Infiltrate.

I should point out, again, that I don't expect anyone to play OBEL as such, but that's what the rules say. The argument you're making is that the "can be" in OBEL overrides the "must be" in Infiltrators, which I don't think is apparent. In short, you say "I can do so because it says I can instead of setting up normally", to which I reply "but then you fail to follow the Infiltrators rule which says you must set up normally", to which you repeat the above, and we get nowhere. Speaking as a Space Wolf player, I find using OBEL when Infiltrate is not allowed to be taking the more advantageous interpretation of an unclear rule. Any way you look at it, Infiltrators and OBEL are in opposition to each other, and I find the language in Infiltrators to be stronger.

The rules are not in contradiction with each other, instead this is just a baisc example of how the rules work. In this case the infiltrators rule states that the unit must be set up normally with the army and OBEL is clearly an exception to the rule as it allows the Scouts to use the rule "instead of being set up normally".

That is exactly how all rules work. You have a general rule which gets superceded by a more specific rule.

Posted By yakface on 06/06/2006 2:53 PM

The rules are not in contradiction with each other, instead this is just a baisc example of how the rules work. In this case the infiltrators rule states that the unit must be set up normally with the army and OBEL is clearly an exception to the rule as it allows the Scouts to use the rule "instead of being set up normally".

That is exactly how all rules work. You have a general rule which gets superceded by a more specific rule.

In this case, I don't buy it.  "Must be" is stronger language than "can be"; I don't see the OBEL rule as being any more specific than the Infiltrators rule -- if anything, Infiltrators is more specific.  OBEL gives an option for deployment, but Infiltrators mandates a specific mode of deployment in the specific case of infiltration not being allowed in the mission.

Can you point out another case where a unit has rules that both state "must do X" and "can do Y instead of X"?

In this case, I don't buy it. "Must be" is stronger language than "can be"; I don't see the OBEL rule as being any more specific than the Infiltrators rule -- if anything, Infiltrators is more specific. OBEL gives an option for deployment, but Infiltrators mandates a specific mode of deployment in the specific case of infiltration not being allowed in the mission.

Can you point out another case where a unit has rules that both state "must do X" and "can do Y instead of X"?

Tau Stealthsuits and any infiltrating Guard unit that also has the Drop Troops doctrine to name two examples off the top of my head.

Posted By yakface on 06/06/2006 3:50 PM

In this case, I don't buy it. "Must be" is stronger language than "can be"; I don't see the OBEL rule as being any more specific than the Infiltrators rule -- if anything, Infiltrators is more specific. OBEL gives an option for deployment, but Infiltrators mandates a specific mode of deployment in the specific case of infiltration not being allowed in the mission.

Can you point out another case where a unit has rules that both state "must do X" and "can do Y instead of X"?

Tau Stealthsuits and any infiltrating Guard unit that also has the Drop Troops doctrine to name two examples off the top of my head.

I can't comment on the Guard, but using the old codex text for stealth suits (and not using the USR, for sake of argument), the stealth suits would be unable to deep strike in missions without infiltrate: they get deep strike as a Tau special rule via their jump pack, and then their unit special rule of Infiltrate mandates normal setup if infiltrators are not allowed.  How exactly is guard infiltrate specified?  It's worth noting that both the Chaos infiltrate and the Kroot infiltrate (counter to stealth suit infiltrate, in the same codex) do not have "must deploy normally" text.

I'm just not seeing the specificity argument -- both rules are presented at the same place, as special rules of the Wolf Scout unit.  As I said, if anything the requirement to deploy normally is the more specific of the two mentions as it refers to a specific case (infiltrators not allowed), while the OBEL deployment option is general.

I can't comment on the Guard, but using the old codex text for stealth suits (and not using the USR, for sake of argument), the stealth suits would be unable to deep strike in missions without infiltrate: they get deep strike as a Tau special rule via their jump pack, and then their unit special rule of Infiltrate mandates normal setup if infiltrators are not allowed. How exactly is guard infiltrate specified? It's worth noting that both the Chaos infiltrate and the Kroot infiltrate (counter to stealth suit infiltrate, in the same codex) do not have "must deploy normally" text.

All infiltration is done now through the infiltrate USR. The infiltrate USR has exactly the same proviso: ". . .must set up normally with the rest of the army."

I'm just not seeing the specificity argument -- both rules are presented at the same place, as special rules of the Wolf Scout unit. As I said, if anything the requirement to deploy normally is the more specific of the two mentions as it refers to a specific case (infiltrators not allowed), while the OBEL deployment option is general.

Because the Infiltrate rule and OBEL are not in contradiction with each other. If the infiltrate is not used in the mission the unit must be set up with the army, and OBEL allows a unit to be held in reserve instead of setting up with normally with the army.

Regardless of whether you understand the concept or not, I am quite certain that no one will ever try to enforce such a thing in an actual game (especially considering the ramifications of Deep Strike vs. Infiltrate), so I personally don't see the point of hashing this out anymore.

Lowinor,
You do not properly understand Space wolf Scouts. 0-1 Scouts use operate behind enemy lines and get the nifty power weapons and melta bombs. Any additional scouts use regular scout rules and armament. The rules are entirely seprate. If a space wolf tries to infiltrate with specialized scouts he is wrong. They can be set up normally but cannot infiltrate.

JackBurton01 is right the 0-1 scouts that have OBEL can do so whenever they want. its there special rule and overides the the rule book.

Okay guys I have a question for you. I was playing Black Templars, and my scouts came on his board edge (like almost every time wolf scouts come on). Now in the shooting phase I shot and killed some models. Now you know how when Templars take casualties they charge forward. The question is which way should the Templars charge? Towards the scouts, or towards the enemy lines?

What do you think?

They don't fall back towards enemy lines, they fall back towards "the nearest visible enemy unit".

So if the Scouts are the nearest visible enemy unit then the Templars fall towards them.