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Seriously, Fantasy was a better game in every sense, and had 30 years of history with amazing characters.

They kill off fantasy because they don't think it's salvageable, an atrocity in my eyes.

And now that they've released this hot garbage called AOS and are peddling it everywhere, they even stream tournaments now? They get all these new models and constant updates for a year?

Where was this for the last decade before they decided to kill off the game that literally put GW on the map?

*sighs incredibly loudly

Look, this topic has been done to death and I'm frankly sick of hearing it. It may be a surprise to you, but some people really like AoS. Sure it had a bumpy start but at least it's trying to fix it's problems, ala General's Handbook.

Also, answering the question on constant updates. Why would GW release a HUGE scaled new IP and not follow up with new models?

And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.

Yes, I know it is frustrating one of your favourite games suddenly goes under, but you have to understand WHFB was slowly dropping sales and that means as a company GW had to do something. Now was AoS the best option? Possibly, we don't know. But right now, WHFB, now known as AoS, has looked the strongest it has been for a long time.

EDIT: I just want to add that I played a bit of WHFB during 7th and early 8th. While it wasn't my main game, I did still have a somewhat decently sized force for it. I felt mentioning this was important so this discussion could be structured rather than "your opinion is wrong cos you like AoS". And while I do like AoS, it's not like I don't understand what point you're making either.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
*sighs incredibly loudly

Look, this topic has been done to death and I'm frankly sick of hearing it. It may be a surprise to you, but some people really like AoS. Sure it had a bumpy start but at least it's trying to fix it's problems, ala General's Handbook.

Also, answering the question on constant updates. Why would GW release a HUGE scaled new IP and not follow up with new models?

And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.

Yes, I know it is frustrating one of your favourite games suddenly goes under, but you have to understand WHFB was slowly dropping sales and that means as a company GW had to do something. Now was AoS the best option? Possibly, we don't know. But right now, WHFB, now known as AoS, has looked the strongest it has been for a long time.

They could have done starter skirmish to the existing game and there would be no problem.

OP yes. You are right.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Seriously, Fantasy was a better game in every sense, and had 30 years of history with amazing characters.

They kill off fantasy because they don't think it's salvageable, an atrocity in my eyes.

And now that they've released this hot garbage called AOS and are peddling it everywhere, they even stream tournaments now? They get all these new models and constant updates for a year?

Where was this for the last decade before they decided to kill off the game that literally put GW on the map?

WHFB wasn't that great, I miss it, sure, but I think Age of Sigmar is a much more enjoyable game (to say that one is better than the other isn't possible, as they are both very different games and fall into completely different and incomparable categories) and a far more unique setting.

Anyway, WHFB simply wasn't selling. Towards the end of WHFBs run they released a few new armies with tons of new minis which were basically dead on arrival and nobody purchased any of it, so they pulled the plug. The only people to blame on this one are WHFB's "fans" who created a toxic community that refused to support the game monetarily or with any amount of exposure that would keep it solvent against its competitors, and which scared off any potential new interest in the game with its constant bitching about how broken and crappy it was.

And you also answered your own question. Unfortunately, WHFB was struggling and needed something drastic to happen to save it. And a year on from that drastic change known as AoS, "Fantasy" has been put back on the map. I recall sales of AoS taking up around 30% of GW profits recently, something Fantasy hasn't done in a while now.

Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.

While I think it would have been better to take the Sigmarines to the Warhammer World instead of the Warhammer World to Sigmarville, I am currently okay with what we are left with.

It would have been nice if GW had finished 8th then wrapped it up and sent it off to Forge World, but I am still crossing my fingers and hoping they do that sometime after Bloodbowl.

Warhammer FB just was not selling, sure there was a huge fan base, but most people already had their armies. Even though the cost per model was not so outrageous (Witch Elves being the worst offender) the cost for a playable army was out of control.

I am currently getting my Old World fix from Total Warhammer, and now that the old Warhammer World is dead I am confident that Total Warhammer will have a very free reign with what units can be brought into the game. GW would have been throwing red lights at cool units that they do not make anymore like the Tutogen Guard. Sure GW were silly not to take advantage of the Total War Warhammer game, I think they should have had Legendary Lord character packs ready to go from day 1.

I would like to see a proper Warhammer Mass battles game, but I think it would be foolish to simply port back the old WHFB rules. What I would like to see would be a merging of old WHFB, Warmaster and AoS creating a Meaty Hybrid (or Chaos Spawn).

For example, use Elements with a uniform frontage (120mm for Cavalry and Infantry). Give a minimum amount of models per element and it does not matter what base the actual model is on. This would preserve AoS models within a Mass Battle format. The rest would all be finer details.

The fluff on the other hand... realm gates are fine, and I loved the Death Gate Cycle back in the day (not sure if I could finish it these days), but I think I prefer my Warhammer in fewer worlds. I am currently not sure if the ideal number would be 1, but it is certainly fewer than near infinite.

It kind of feels like no one actually read past the first few sentences in the OP.

He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.

Well, the answer to that is that Tom Kirby was to blame, as he is for the death of WHFB. All the new promoting and support AoS is getting is ENTIRELY the new CEOs doing. Tom Kirby killed WHFB, made AoS then shoved all the responsibility of making it work off onto his replacement. If Kirby had stepped down 5 years ago, Fantasy would probably still be with us and likely in a better position.

It kind of feels like no one actually read past the first few sentences in the OP.

He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.

No, I definitely answered that:

Anyway, WHFB simply wasn't selling. Towards the end of WHFBs run they released a few new armies with tons of new minis which were basically dead on arrival and nobody purchased any of it, so they pulled the plug. The only people to blame on this one are WHFB's "fans" who created a toxic community that refused to support the game monetarily or with any amount of exposure that would keep it solvent against its competitors, and which scared off any potential new interest in the game with its constant bitching about how broken and crappy it was.

and

Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.

Sim-Life wrote:
He's asking why GW decided to ditch Fantasy instead of trying to promote and support it more like they're doing with AoS.

Without breaking out to a different customer base, nothing would have changed. As has been pointed out, there were a few large army reboots right before the end that didnt register in sales. Try to sell whatever you like to the same old players who have all they need, they might buy just the new latest thing if at all. They would never buy enough to save it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.

Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.

AOS is not a bad idea, but l.ike a lot of things it was poorly implemented. However there have been secondary changes. I will bullet point for easier reference.

1. Most importantly there has been a clearout at GW HQ, not only Kirby but a lot of deadwood management has gone. This has resulted in changes.

2. Kirby was responsible for AOS, but his successors were reponsible for making it work, those changes also apply to 40k.

3. Most notable of the above are the inclusion of starter boxsets which offer a clear supposed value. also the inclusion of a major model in each starter rather than mondane troops/core choices is a big factor in its success.

4. AOS is not a failure, but itsd success can be misattributed. It has sold well because it is new and has been plugged heavily.

5. Also a number of people have been 'panic buying' Gw models. There have been sales spikes of soon to be discontinued lines. This is all listed as a successful sale for AOS.

6. Having WHFB left out of the hands of GW designers has caused a rennaisance in 9th Age and various 8.5 projects.

7. Also people have been buying AOS/Fantasy miniatures after returning to the hobby via Total War: Warhammer.

The a\bove can cause AOS to be a success even without AOSD being a part of the success.

Now:

8. AOS has pulled entry level to the hobby from 13 to 8. The average thirteen year old in the UK will find gaming 'sad' and not take up the hobby, eight year olds do not have this baggage. When in the hobby the new customer can stay in and past thier teen years.

9. GW is making plans for release of earlier titles. Battlefleet Gothic and Epic are the most requested and will come first. A whole new department has been started for this taking the number of main departments from three to four. It has been rumoured that WHFB is in the pipeline released as an independent ruleset. But that is a low priority and will only happen when specialist games has established itself.
The important point to note here is that these releases are not intended as a side action, but a core part of the companies repertoire. BFG, Mordhiem. Blood Bowl etc are intended to have an identicle size presence collective to AOS or 40K. also specialist games are not needed to be 'dumbed down', some releases will be widened to fit AOS, others left alone because an in depth specialist game has its own niche.

WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. Frankly the changes of the last few months have shown GW to be headed belatedly in the right direction. I am disappointed with AOS on a personal basis, but I see the need for it.

 Orlanth wrote:

WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. .

Was this actually a question ever?

Also, if GW big heads look at TW:W numbers they see the need for the product.

herjan1987 wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. .

Was this actually a question ever?

Also, if GW big heads look at TW:W numbers they see the need for the product.

You are snipping the quote so it reads as something other than it sys.

Mismanagement hasn't made WHFB dormant.
End Times 'killed off' WHFB and GW have placed that part of their IP on hold outside of external franchise sales.
WHFB will come back when GW can afford to provide it, and that will happen when specialist games has made a crapton of money from BFG and Blood Bowl, both of which are licenses to print mo0ney that prior, useless, management left fallow.

 Orlanth wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

WHFB might not actually be dead, just dormant while GW recovers from decades of mismanagement. .

Was this actually a question ever?

Also, if GW big heads look at TW:W numbers they see the need for the product.

You are snipping the quote so it reads as something other than it sys.

Mismanagement hasn't made WHFB dormant.
End Times 'killed off' WHFB and GW have placed that part of their IP on hold outside of external franchise sales.
WHFB will come back when GW can afford to provide it, and that will happen when specialist games has made a crapton of money from BFG and Blood Bowl, both of which are licenses to print mo0ney that prior, useless, management left fallow.

Partially yes

The thing is that I look around miniwargamings older WHFB batreps and people say in recent comments ( 1-3 months old ) that its looks cool. People would try it our, if they had the option to try it out.

This shows the failure that GW didnt used TW:W as a cross sales platform.

Sim-Life wrote:

Well, the answer to that is that Tom Kirby was to blame, as he is for the death of WHFB. All the new promoting and support AoS is getting is ENTIRELY the new CEOs doing. Tom Kirby killed WHFB, made AoS then shoved all the responsibility of making it work off onto his replacement. If Kirby had stepped down 5 years ago, Fantasy would probably still be with us and likely in a better position.

The same man who thought that reducing the amount of models in the boxes and hiking the prices was a good strategy. He didn't play the games and treated his employees like garbage. He considered cutting prices a heresy in the worst form and fired anyone who questioned his handling.

I'm glad he's gone, but sadly the damage has already been done.

herjan1987 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.

Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.

This. People love to trot out that WHFB was basically not ever selling anything with no evidence whatsoever.

Sim-Life, we dont have figures but GW have said they werent making money on the product line, and they can defintively say so because they have the sales records.

IIRC earlier this decade the entirety of WHFB collectively made as much profit as one popular, but not-marine, faction for 40K. Likely Eldar or Tau. Space marines alone outsold all of Warhammer by a very considerable margin.

Sim-Life wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Indeed, prior to AoS, WHFB was generating only like 5% of GWs total profits (in part because many of the new releases for WHFB never managed to make back their production costs). The new game has been much more successful financially speaking.

Sorry, but thats just proper bull droppings. WHFB was still profitable, but not as much as some people would have like it to be. This is from hastings.

This. People love to trot out that WHFB was basically not ever selling anything with no evidence whatsoever.

Well, do you have evidence of how much it was selling?

The fact that AOS exists should be evidence enough that the profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB. A company doesn't usually take a huge risk with one of their largest IPs, unless there is a drastic reason to.

Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:

"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-

1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-the-rumormeister-speaks.html

By the way the whole thing was copy pasted from Warseer.

herjan1987 wrote:
Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:

"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-

1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-the-rumormeister-speaks.html

By the way the whole thing was copy pasted from Warseer.

Making a profit \= making a good profit. This is a basic business concept, he even says it himself that it was "not as much as some people would like."

I mean, did you even read what I said? "The profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB" which doesn't mean they are not making any profit, it means that the profit they are making is not enough to be worth the support of that product line.

 Sasori wrote:

herjan1987 wrote:
Well, if you dont believe us. Believe in hastings one of the best romour sources around GW:

"…By the way for those asking I do not have information on how other products sold or why this or why that, I will happily share with you all the two things I was implicitly told:-

1/ WFB was still making profit before end times, just not as much as some people would have liked. This is kind of ironic because IMO the reasons it didn’t make more profit is it was largely put on the back burners behind anything that had power armour (i.e. space marines/40k) – and I guess because of popularity that is understandable. And the cost of entry. However the making cost of entry so high is directly the fault of GW, the costs per army towards the end of WFB were beyond crazy, a small unit (one of many in an army) costing between 50 -100gbp is just crazy when there are so many alternatives out there. What is even more unforgiveable and moronic is that there would have been an easier fix to boost sales of WFB, release an entry level/skirmish game, get people buying the very same models you already sell for WFB but in smaller numbers, you’ve already paid for the development so any extra sales add to profit. Then once people have built a small force under skirmish rules let them add to it for the main WFB, they’ll have spent the same amount of money (if not a little more when you take into account the cost of the skirmish game) but it wouldn’t be in one big stupid hit!"

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/age-of-sigmar-the-rumormeister-speaks.html

By the way the whole thing was copy pasted from Warseer.

Making a profit \= making a good profit. This is a basic business concept, he even says it himself that it was "not as much as some people would like."

I mean, did you even read what I said? "The profit level was not enough for them to continue with WHFB" which doesn't mean they are not making any profit, it means that the profit they are making is not enough to be worth the support of that product line.

I know, but its not like what other people are saying that WHFB was not making profit at all. We propebly all know which are the reasons that it wasnt making enought profit.

 Orlanth wrote:


IIRC earlier this decade the entirety of WHFB collectively made as much profit as one popular, but not-marine, faction for 40K. Likely Eldar or Tau. Space marines alone outsold all of Warhammer by a very considerable margin.

Yeah, but Space Marines outsell everything GW does. Whether that's because they get all the love - and thus publicity, starter sets, new rules, and so forth - or because more people like them is up for debate, but if Space Marines are considered the yardstick to measure profitability by, then everything else GW sells is in big trouble.

I'm honestly willing to bet that Space Marines outsell Age of Sigmar as well.

They likely do, but the better takeaway from that was that the entire WHFB range only sold as much as a non-marine army, even after the boost by the end times.

Yeah, the armies weren't selling but that's because GW were expecting people to buy 50 models for a unit.

Saying "well it didn't sell as well" is like saying "they made a platinum and gold diamond ring, but it didn't sell, so obviously no one wants to buy them".

WHFB was given no entry level support like the "start an army" sets we have now. Like why not introduce a WHFB set skirmish game like AoS WITHIN THE SETTING? There was actually already a skirmish level rule set published by GW in existence. Why not just update and republish that?

The death of WHFB is entirely on Kirby's head and it wouldn't have been hard to drum up some interest, it's just that Kirby was a congenital idiot with the busines sense of a brick.

I find myself doubting how easy that would be to just make it so a game that was doing poorly would be made to make even less profit by dropping the models needed and, as most keep arguing for, the prices.

It seems to me that would've brought it down from 5-15% profit to 2-10% profit since people would have spent less altogether for it then.

I can't really blame GW for not capitalizing on TW either since that's purely a hindsight thing. Putting the entire future of a franchise on the popularity of a game that would take years of development with a unclear release date and could possibly be "Rome 2: fantasy edition" definitely would seem a risky investment that could've killed fantasy completely and damaged the company.

There's definitely things GW should have done to make fantasy a success but that should have happened around 6th edition with reasonable army sizes and better overall support for the game. 8th edition, while very good on it's own merits, kind of put fantasy's foot in the grave.

Just my opinion, of course.

Sim-Life wrote:
WHFB was given no entry level support like the "start an army" sets we have now. Like why not introduce a WHFB set skirmish game like AoS WITHIN THE SETTING? There was actually already a skirmish level rule set published by GW in existence. Why not just update and republish that?
.

Because with AoS they could 'justify' including Not-Space Marines and tide Lil Timmy over into Fantasty with boltgun crossbows and drop pod lightning strikes.

They probably realised doing so within Fantasy as it existed would have been too much of a hard sell. Thus, Fantasy went in the bin.

We know Fantasy was pulling in a profit, it just wasn't profitable enough for their liking. When your 40k line is 50% some variety of Space Marine and another 20% Imperials who can ally with Space Marines, its pretty easy to see why they thought it would be worth it.

A little I stil think 4th was best.

I played WHFB in 5th edition and 7th edition. I got re-interested in the hobby because of TW:W. While I very much understand why people are upset by the destruction of the setting, I honestly think that the result is better for the hobby. WHFB was a very, very hard game to get into. It just feels clunky and takes a huge investment of time and money.

AoS, on the other hand, is much easier to pick up and WILL grow the hobby in ways that WHFB could not.

Furthermore, fan projects like 9th age are keeping WHFB alive and arguably even improving it. At a certain point, as a WHFB player, I got sick of the power creep of new releases and feeling pressured to buy new models to stay competitive, or being stuck with an old army and feeling like I couldn't compete. When 8th was announced and my Wood Elves were still working with a 6th ed rulebook it was such a slap in the face.

WHFB has had a ton of time to develop, and now it can continue to flourish as a fan designed entity. Without the profit motive, I think it will become a better game over time. I also think that AoS players will to some extent migrate to WHFB 9th age or legacy ruleset games. Rebasing is a pain, but I already know of people who started with AoS who are now playing both AoS and 9th age.

I'm sad that the Old World went and agree that it wasn't strictly necessary. It might have been a terrible decision.

I don't resent it though; I was never in it for the lore primarily. I made my own lore.

I will ask the obvious people:

What did the 6th edition do to give Games Workshop 50% of its revenue, that later editions failed to maintain?


And yes WHFB had 2 skirmish games, without Mordheim.

WHFB skirmish and WHFB Warbands. Why couldnt they just rehash those? I read the Skirmish one and there are a ton ( 42 ) of fun scenarios. With model count going as low as 1 giant and 5 slayers.

I didn't get into fantasy till AoS, but not from lack of trying.

As I was in the process of getting out of 40k, I looked pretty hard at WHFB, even going so far as to buy the rulebook and dark elf book. And while I liked the setting and a good amount of the units, I couldnt get into the game. Didnt like army comp, and even just reading the boards here, I didnt like the sound of how the game played.

Fast forward to a couple of months ago and with the generals handbook dropping (and seeing actual support) I starting buying minis from GW again.

Maybe it's because I don't really like the idea of massed army battles. Or even that I don't want to build and paint hundreds of minis to get a 'normal' sized army. But even reading the 9th Age rules, it still turns me off from playing.

End times and killing WHFB seemed really dumb, but I probably wouldn't be playing now if they hadn't killed it AND started building everything up again.

swarmofseals wrote:

I'm sad that the Old World went and agree that it wasn't strictly necessary. It might have been a terrible decision.

I doubt anyone at GW HQ considers it a terrible decision as AoS is now selling better than WHFB as per their financial report.