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Hey all,

By now, I'm sure y'all have encountered the power that us the Vessery/ Ryad list so I thought I'd take a stab at using the other 2: Stele and Rexler Brath.

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99 points
------

Gamma Squadron Veteran (26)
TIE Bomber (19), Deadeye (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Extra Munitions (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Maarek Stele (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Rexler Brath (37)
TIE Defender (37), Rage (1), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Rexler is partially chosen for the PS 8, and I've been wondering if him+ x7 could make Rage fairly useful. It's not an action I'd take frequently but it could be useful once an enemy's shields are down/I'm not going to take return fire. But mainly his job is to token strip for Stele to make juke more effective.

The Gamma vet could be swapped out for Omega Leader (straight up) but OL has always felt under-gunned to me... that may be a function of me flying him "wrong" or my opponents recognizing the danger and blasting him first.

Anyway, your thoughts, comments and suggestions are eagerly awaited.

Why is this list worth considering? What advantages do you bring compared to the demonstrated power of Vessery + Ryad + Palpatine? Right now this looks like taking weaker ships just for the sake of avoiding the popular list.

Also, Omega Leader is not under-gunned at all. Once you have the target lock and stored evade token (IOW, you've reached your endgame 1v1) OLeader has one of the most dangerous attacks in the game. Juke on OLeader is essentially an infinite crack shot and they can't spend defensive tokens. Even ships like Soontir Fel that are virtually immune to damage from anything else have to stay out of arc against OLeader or die. The only time OLeader could be said to be under-gunned is when you're facing zero-agility HP bricks like the Decimator, where all of your investment in negating defense rolls is redundant.

I'm going to go along with the idea that you're a casual player like myself, unlike the bird from hell.

So my usual list has consisted of this;

Squadron: The usual suspects
TIE Defender: •Maarek Stele (38)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Tractor Beam (1)

TIE Defender: •Rexler Brath (39)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)
Adaptability +1 (0)
Tractor Beam (1)

Total: 77/100

I usually run a bomber shuttle with fleet and mara onboard. It's done rather well except just lately with the release of way 9 etc. So I've thought about maybe a tie of some sort to get in the list instead of the bomber.

I've also got another one that I've been messing around which I call "pure speed" which is Jax and two defender's with X7 titles.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I'm going to go along with the idea that you're a casual player like myself, unlike the bird from hell.

But that still doesn't answer the question. If you're going to post a list for discussion "I'm casual" doesn't explain what you're trying to do with it or why you made the choices that you did. The OP acknowledges that the Ryad/Vessery/Palpatine list is good and seems to think that this is an alternative worth considering, but why?

Why not? You don't have to play exactly what everyone else is playing dude. That's actually the best part of the game i find. Trying and experimenting with lists and ships.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Why not? You don't have to play exactly what everyone else is playing dude. That's actually the best part of the game i find. Trying and experimenting with lists and ships.

Of course you experiment, but experimenting is a process. Saying "I'm experimenting" is just the beginning, the starting point to the discussion. What thought process went into the choices in the experiment? What did your experiments figure out? Can you compete with the best lists, or did the experiment fail? If it can compete, how do you use it and win? What advantages does it offer over the well-proven tournament standards?

So yes, the OP is trying something new. But let's finish the story.

To answer the question about why not x:

1) I don't own a shuttle or Palpatine and don't want to get either/ both. It doesn't suit my play style (and I confess that I don't think Palpatine should be able to be used in non-epic play).

2) Ryad is interesting and tempting, but I wanted to try out one/both of the others. I may be wrong, but I haven't felt the need for a million k-turns (yet). My FLGS definitely has a weird meta too and ps5 seems like a pretty big handicap.

3) Vessery is probably going to be the first sub into the list, with VI to get his ps up to or higher than the other Defender. But (again) i want to see how the others play.

As for other considerations, Marek Stele I like for the higher base ps (partially freeing him for non-VI/ Adaptability epts) and because his ability is passive vs. Rexler's which requires a focus. And the ability to pick the appropriate crit has worked nicely (direct hit to instantly kill a Phantom or TAP or a-wing... blinded pilot to prevent return fire, etc).

Rexler is probably the weak link of the 2 Defenders. Part of my reasoning for him is sheer contrariness but I also think that a raging Rexler does have a lot of hitting potential.

And part of the hesitation about OL is that I run into a lot of large ships, so the 2 dice attack feels kinda anemic. But I do admit that maybe I need to learn to fly OL more conservatively so he survives to the endgame.

Thanks for the input so far and I look forward to more. I'm also thinking about swapping a Defender for Soontir or Carnor (which makes Vessery a bit less appealing) or something similar.

A Vessery + Inquisitor+ bomber/ OL combination also strikes me as a pretty good alternative...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update with Vessery swapped for Rexler

===============
Veterans Mk II
===============

99 points

Pilots
------

Gamma Squadron Veteran (28)
TIE Bomber (19), Deadeye (1), Extra Munitions (2), Flechette Torpedoes (2), Concussion Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

Maarek Stele (36)
TIE Defender (35), Juke (2), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Colonel Vessery (35)
TIE Defender (35), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Before on heads into the field to conduct an experiment, one ought to formulate a hypothesis and define a methodology.

Point to the Raptor of Doom.

Apostasus wrote:
1) I don't own a shuttle or Palpatine and don't want to get either/ both. It doesn't suit my play style (and I confess that I don't think Palpatine should be able to be used in non-epic play).

Just be aware that you're turning down a huge amount of power by refusing to use Palpatine. There's a reason he appears so frequently in winning lists.

2) Ryad is interesting and tempting, but I wanted to try out one/both of the others. I may be wrong, but I haven't felt the need for a million k-turns (yet). My FLGS definitely has a weird meta too and ps5 seems like a pretty big handicap.

Once you try Ryad you'll see why the k-turns are powerful. Doing a green 5-k every turn with PTL means focus + evade + target lock or barrel roll. And yeah, PS 5 is a drawback, but you'll find that few ships can keep up with a green 5-k every turn no matter how high their PS is.

Marek Stele I like for the higher base ps (partially freeing him for non-VI/ Adaptability epts)

The problem is that PS 7 might as well be PS 4 in the current metagame. If Ryad's PS 5 is a big handicap then Maarek's is just as bad. What PS 7 really means is that you're PS 9 with no EPT.

And the ability to pick the appropriate crit has worked nicely (direct hit to instantly kill a Phantom or TAP or a-wing... blinded pilot to prevent return fire, etc).

I think you're falling into the trap of only seeing the best-case scenarios here. Maarek's pilot ability is blank if you're hitting shields, if you don't roll a crit (and you have no way to get automatic crits), or if the damage you're doing would kill your target regardless of what crit you give them. For example, against that TAP or TIE phantom only 25% of your damage can possibly use Maarek's pilot ability. Contrast that with Vessery, where you get a free target lock (or two target locks with TIE/D!) every turn as long as you set it up right (and setting it up is obvious). That's a lot more powerful for the same point cost.

Part of my reasoning for him is sheer contrariness but I also think that a raging Rexler does have a lot of hitting potential.

Rage is bad. Rage on a TIE defender is really bad. Even with the Mk.II engines your best trick (the white k-turn) doesn't let you clear stress, and you can't do 90* turns either. And yeah, it's great dice modification, but only for one turn. You pay for it by losing your actions on at least the next turn, and longer if you don't do a green maneuver.

I'm also thinking about swapping a Defender for Soontir or Carnor (which makes Vessery a bit less appealing) or something similar.

Here's an idea, if you aren't committed to double defenders:

Vessery (TIE/D, tractor, VI)
Inquisitor (standard)
Vader (adaptability, ATC)

Vader drops to PS 8, and both Vader and the Inquisitor are taking target locks every turn by default already. That gives Vessery target locks on both shots with the double tap. The tractor beam cripples a target (and possibly puts it onto a rock or into a range-1 shot), then all three ships get to tear it apart with primary weapon shots. It's a terrifying amount of damage that can easily remove a ship in a single round of shooting if the tractor beam hits.

Egad, man, you have ice water in your veins. I love it.

Well, I went 1-2 at the FLGS last night; a loss to 2 ace protectorate fighters + guri (I distinctly dislike the one who makes you discard focus & evade tokens), a win over BBX rebel aces (poe, tien nub) and a loss to Vader-Vessery- Palpatine.

All in all I made several mistakes flying the bomber (only fired 2 missiles in all 3 games) but I still think that I like the potential.

In the last game I really felt the PS handicap on Marek more than any other time ... I lost out on juke a couple of times because I needed to spend the evade before I could fire (and failed to roll crits as I was warned about) and died before his final shot :(

So I'm planning on switching to Homing Missiles & long range scanners (to make sure the bomber can boost Vessery even when not shooting and hopefully getting the occasional 4-dice shot with both focus & TL).

The other change will be either Adaptability on Vessery to have more movement options at ps7 and adding seismic charges to the bomber (lack of actions was a problem for me flying the bomber) for additional damage & movement threat (I chose to hit Vader with a flachette missile in my last game and having him stressed probably helped more than extra damage)... or maybe switch Marek to Rexler (and Vessery with VI) with either Juke or possibly PTL (engine Mk II, naturally)... but lone wolf, predator and Outmaneuver are also a possibility.

A look at the latter option:
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100 points
------

Gamma Squadron Veteran (27)
TIE Bomber (19), Deadeye (1), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Long Range Scanners (0)

Colonel Vessery (34)
TIE Defender (35), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

Rexler Brath (39)
TIE Defender (37), Push the Limit (3), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Any other comments/ suggestions and criticism welcome

PTL on Rexler suffers from the same problem as rage: once you're stressed you're either stuck with a very limited dial and killed, or never getting actions again as you do white maneuvers. If you want PTL on a defender you take Ryad. But really, Rexler is just bad. PS 8 is nice, I guess, but his pilot ability is terrible. And IMO PS 8 on the defender just isn't worth paying that many points if you aren't getting a good pilot ability to go with it.

 Peregrine wrote:
PTL on Rexler suffers from the same problem as rage: once you're stressed you're either stuck with a very limited dial and killed, or never getting actions again as you do white maneuvers. If you want PTL on a defender you take Ryad. But really, Rexler is just bad. PS 8 is nice, I guess, but his pilot ability is terrible. And IMO PS 8 on the defender just isn't worth paying that many points if you aren't getting a good pilot ability to go with it.

Bull.. i would disagree. of all of the Defender pilots i've had more wins with Rexler than any other. per game he deals more damage then any other. having him and Stele as a pair is awesome. got a ship in range that has a few shields left? hit him with Stele first to take the last shields away and then come through with Rex with a focus look to get as many damage cards as possible then pop the focus to flip them all faceup. how is that a bad ability...?

 captain bloody fists wrote:
of all of the Defender pilots i've had more wins with Rexler than any other.

Ok. In tournaments Vessery is relevant, Rexler is not. We know that you have a very casual community that doesn't play competitively, so your success with a bad pilot is not surprising.

per game he deals more damage then any other.

Then you haven't been flying Vessery with a tractor beam and TIE/D.

how is that a bad ability...?

Because it doesn't work against shields. It doesn't work if the damage you're inflicting is enough to kill the target with face-down cards. It doesn't work if you roll eyes on your attack, since you'll want to spend your focus for extra damage cards. It doesn't help you get damage through or keep you alive. It's a niche role ability on a very expensive ship, contrasted with a cheaper option (Vessery) that is also much more powerful.

Oh and btw PTL on Rexler isn't that bad. as long as twin ion engines are put on there is options of different bank and straight moves to get rid of the stress.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really can't be bothered doing the multiple quotes so here,

so because no one has used Rexler in a tournament means that he's irrelevant? You are partially right, my community is mostly casual except for our monthly tournaments and local interstore comps that we hold.

true i haven't flown her.

Of course in the first pass it doesn't work on shields, every ship is like that. His ability is always better on the second to third pass, that's a given dude. PTL with ion engines i reckon isn't a bad option on the above mentioned second pass. but again as you so graciously pointed out my community is casual so what would i know?

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Oh and btw PTL on Rexler isn't that bad. as long as twin ion engines are put on there is options of different bank and straight moves to get rid of the stress.

It's terrible because the defender's best trick is the white k-turn. With only straight and bank maneuvers available (and only 3/4/5-straight and 3-bank if you want your x7 evade token) and no boost option it's too easy to get behind a defender and kill it. The only defender that is viable with PTL is Ryad, because she can do green k-turns to clear the stress.

 Peregrine wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Oh and btw PTL on Rexler isn't that bad. as long as twin ion engines are put on there is options of different bank and straight moves to get rid of the stress.

It's terrible because the defender's best trick is the white k-turn. With only straight and bank maneuvers available (and only 3/4/5-straight and 3-bank if you want your x7 evade token) and no boost option it's too easy to get behind a defender and kill it. The only defender that is viable with PTL is Ryad, because she can do green k-turns to clear the stress.

you have the exact same issue with Ryad it's predictable and the other crap thing is, in the majority of times, you'll be moving before everyone else.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
so because no one has used Rexler in a tournament means that he's irrelevant?

Right. Tournament players want to win, and tournament players have certainly considered and playtested Rexler. If Rexler isn't seeing meaningful tournament use (and winning games there, not just showing up) it's because Rexler is a weak option that nobody considers viable enough to be worth taking. It is much more likely that the tournament players are correct than that you are the one person to have figured out that Rexler is good.

Of course in the first pass it doesn't work on shields, every ship is like that.

No, every ship is not like that. For example, Vessery works just fine against targets with shields. Soontir Fel works fine against targets with shields. Corran works fine against targets with shields. Dengar works fine against targets with shields. Etc. This kind of thing is why those ships are useful, while Rexler is bad.

His ability is always better on the second to third pass, that's a given dude.

Except even then it's questionable. Once you get the shields down you often get to a point where face-down damage cards are killing your target anyway and flipping them face-up is irrelevant. Rexler's ability is really only relevant against big ships after the first pass, against small ships there's rarely enough of a window for his ability to matter.

PTL with ion engines i reckon isn't a bad option on the above mentioned second pass.

It is bad because it prevents you from getting a second pass. The defender wins by making the first pass and then k-turning behind you with its full actions and dial available after the k-turn. With PTL stress you can't do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
you have the exact same issue with Ryad it's predictable and the other crap thing is, in the majority of times, you'll be moving before everyone else.

The difference with Ryad is that doing a 5-k every turn is very difficult for most ships to keep up with, even if they know exactly where you're going. And you can still do those straight/bank maneuvers to catch them expecting your k-turn. PS 5 is a drawback, yes, but that doesn't make PTL Rexler any better. If PTL Ryad isn't viable then PTL just isn't an option for defenders.

Speaking hypothetically here.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason why you don't see Rexler in tournaments is because his pilot ability isn't bad (disregarding your opinion) but rather the current meta (possibly pre wave 9) was having high aces with a palp shuttle which when you made Rexler good (freaking awesome imo with Adapt, D, tractor, tinw ion) was slightly too high points wise to fit in with the Fel/inquistor support (which we both agree are awesome)?

oh an FYI i agree with Apostasus in that Palp should never have been in anything but Epic. just doesn't feel right imo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and btw can i ask a question. Do you actually experiment with other pilots, cards etc? not having a go at you just genuinely curious.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason why you don't see Rexler in tournaments is because his pilot ability isn't bad (disregarding your opinion) but rather the current meta (possibly pre wave 9) was having high aces with a palp shuttle which when you made Rexler good (freaking awesome imo with Adapt, D, tractor, tinw ion) was slightly too high points wise to fit in with the Fel/inquistor support (which we both agree are awesome)?

This argument is obviously not correct because Whisper/OLeader/Palpshuttle was a viable tournament list and Whisper costs more than Rexler. Palp aces players were willing to take a more expensive ace and settle for OLeader, but Rexler just isn't good enough.

Also, Rexler is garbage with TIE/D and tractor beam. Vessery does this job so much better, for fewer points.

I beg to disagree with Rexler being garbage with D and tractor beam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and depending on how you run Rexler and Whisper they actually come out on nearly identical point costs.

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I beg to disagree with Rexler being garbage with D and tractor beam.

Then you're wrong. Vessery is just plain better at this in every relevant way. Having a free target lock on both shots is just so insanely powerful that nothing Rexler can do can possibly compete. A ship that is just a worse version of a good ship is garbage tier.

oh and depending on how you run Rexler and Whisper they actually come out on nearly identical point costs.

Ok, and that doesn't change anything I said. If you can find room for Whisper in a Palp aces list you can find room for Rexler. People found room for Whisper because Whisper is good. People did not bother to find room for Rexler because Rexler is garbage.

Rexler's always scary - I've been on the receiving end enough - but not necessarily scary enough for his points cost. My two imperial credits:

Rexler's ability is good, if you can trigger it, if you have a target where it really matters.

That's his big problems - Vessery's ability works with both shots on the TIE/D, even if it's just a tractor beam.

Rexler's ability really wants to be using a Heavy Laser Cannon...which disallows both of the new titles (which is fair enough; they weren't a thing when his ability was written).

Plus, needing focus plus dice modifiers either needs Push The Limit or Rage (both of which cause stress which TIE defenders hate), or predator (where once throwing 4 dice you do feel the fact that you only reroll 1 die a lot more than you otherwise might) or a support ship. Granted, Vessery needs support ships as well, but doesn't require said ships to do anything beyond what they'd be doing anyway; target locking the one guy you want to focus fire on.

Equally, Rexler's ability is amazing against Chewbacca..... who has also stopped seeing anywhere near as much table time as he used to. A critical-causing heavy laser cannon is great....if you have a target you are bothered about investing many points in inflicting a bruising string of criticals on (it is freakin brutal in epic games - I will happily say that against Huge Ships Rexler still pulls his weight).

Finally, getting 3 more-or-less automatic criticals is also something that can be done by Omega Ace. Granted, he needs to be at range 1 to do it, but even with Push The Limit and a Comms Relay, he's only 26 points - about half the cost of a HLC/PTL wielding Rexler Brath - and is very nearly as tough.

So in mucking about a bit further (though with no further playtesting), I started thinking about the "opportunity cost" of taking Marek/Rexler -- notably that you then NEED (if using a tractor/D Vessery) or at least really want to take an initiative mod on Vessery (with x7 it's less necessary to have Vessery shooting first -- I found I often wasn't taking target lock with Marek, even when I had VI Vessery) -- so you can't give him a different EPT, like Juke.

Ryad already starts with a lower PS and PTL & lots of green options lets her take the TL to support Vessery more easily, and Vessery is free to take whatever EPT seems like fun (Juke seems popular, and Lone Wolf could be a contender too). So I've been toying with the idea of a Glaive Squadron w/ Juke in the mix because it's 1 point cheaper than Ryad with PTL... Ryad with Juke is another possibility, but it doesn't have the benefit of choosing which to move first... But being able to pick a straight maneuver and _then_ decide whether to k-turn is probably a lot stronger even without the benefit of 'em being green.

That said, there's part of me that still likes Vessery/Adapt/D/Tractor with Marek/x7...

On that note, what (if any) take do y'all have on Juke vs. Calculation as an EPT for Marek? Clearly Calc will get less use, but it does make Marek's ability a lot more likely to trigger (3/8 on any given die vs. 1/8) ... and if I'm not able to take Juke on Vessery also, "losing" it on Marek doesn't feel like such a sacrifice. Or about a "Juker's wild" double defender list (Vessery & Glaive? Vessery & Marek?

Oh and as for Rexler, I'm kinda starting to think that without a focus passing support ship that his pilot ability should be ignored/viewed as a bonus use for a focus that isn't going to be used otherwise. And VI Rexler/x7 as a "surprise" PS 10 could be decent (he seems to be one of the rare-ish PS8 pilots that doesn't _really_ need/benefit a lot from some other EPT. But Vader, even with engine upgrade, comes in a few points cheaper and his amp goes to 11 (/spinal tap reference).

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and criticism.

Scored a victory today with a version of the list, Vessery (x7/adapt/mk2), Marek (x7/juke/mk2) and Gamma vet (Homing Miss./seismic/ Munitions/ deadeye/ long range scanners) for 99 points versus a 5 TIEs list (back draft/ howl/Omega ldr/Wampa/ Academy).

My opponent read my opening well and blocked Vessery on turn 2 (lost all shields) and I messed up my mods for the Homing Missiles (rerolled 2 focus with TL forgetting I didn't have to spend the focus to fire the missiles) which let Howlrunner live...

The bomber got a good hit with seismic charges a turn later (3 enemies and marek lost a shield) but I kept taking damage.

I lost the bomber without much other effect (probably should have kept running rather than k-turning) as well as Vessery while only taking down back draft & Howl.

If the game had been timed, I'm sure I'd have lost, but I killed Wampa before the cancelled crits got marek then was able to kill Omega before he got through my shields then cleaned up.

Much as it pains me to do it, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that even 2 points for a second type of missiles/ bomb is just a waste... when I could have taken juke on Vessery as well... or switched Vessery to a D w/ tractor beam.

Lone Wolf might well be a good call for vessery. Juke is nice - and the obvious one - but the default answer to the colonel is to take out his wingmen first..... lone wolf throws a spanner into the works. I've seen lone wolf do well on xizor for similar reasons.

Lone wolf might work on Marek or a Glaive, but I don't see Vessery getting enough use from it (hmm, maybe on a D for the defense boost, but I'm not sure even then).

I think my default "mostly fun" list is likely to be this moving forward:

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Veterans Mk IIIa
================

99 points

Pilots
------

Colonel Vessery (37)
TIE Defender (35), Tractor beam (1), Adaptability (0), TIE/D (0), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Maarek Stele (35)
TIE Defender (35), Calculation (1), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Gamma Squadron Veteran (27)
TIE Bomber (19), Deadeye (1), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Long Range Scanners (0)

------

View: http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/576427/veterans-mk-iiia

My attempt at a tournament list will be forthcoming in a new thread

Just one man's experiences on "tournament viability" of Rexler Brath, I think he's solid. PS8 is valuable, although his ability is rarely used. I've taken him to 3 major tournaments (2 Regionals and Gencon). First regional was pre-Vets. I took him and Vessery with HLC and went 6-0 in Swiss, being knocked out in the semifinals by a player that has made it to the top 16 at worlds the last 3 years. The second regional (also pre- I went 3-3 with Rex, Omega Leader, and Zeta Leader. I had an off day and played poorly a few games.

Gencon this year (post Vets), I took Rex with Predator, Tractor Beam, and Hull Upgrade, Maarek with Ion Cannon and Hull Upgrade, and an Academy Pilot. I went 5-1 first day, but wasn't able to make the second day.

So yeah, I think he's tournament viable. His PS gets you above Brobots, other Defenders, and Dash, and matches stuff like Miranda and the Inquisitor. His ability is useful once in a while, but you don't plan for it.