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I would like some help critiquing this list from some more experienced horus heresy players.

Praetor with cataphractii a chainfist and a teleportation transponder 160pts

terminator body guard squad in catapractii armor with chainfist and a grenade harness on the sergeant 275 pts

a master of signals with artificer armor and a refractor field 115 pts

2 20 man legion tactical squads with extra cc and attached apothecaries 720 pts

a contemptor dreadnought with kheres assault cannon and a dreadnought close combat weapon 190pts

3 rapiers with quad mortars 180 pts

sicaran battle tank with armored ceramite and lascannons 195

i also have 165 points left over any advice is welcome.

You only have about 1600 points there, so really, your army is too small to play a "proper" game of 30K. 30K doesn't really come into it's own until the 2,000 point threshold, and then the sweet spot is 2,500 points.

Your army is really lacking in transportation. As in, you are going to be foot slogging across the table right now with no transports. Which could be OK, as a lot of armies do that in 40K, but it's not ideal. You need at least one squad of something that can maneuver around on the table and take objectives. You are also missing a lot of anti-armor fire power.

Praetor's are like that one compulsory HQ choice that you must take, but would rather not. Your Praetor costs 150 points (the Teleportation Transponder isn't a wargear option for a Cataphractii Termy- where is this from?). Giving him the Cattaphractii Terminator Armor means he can't run, can't Overwatch, and can't sweeping advance, but he gets a 4++. The generally accepted version of the Praetor is Paragon Blade and Iron Halo, and maybe Master Crafted or Digital Lasers if you want to spend the points.

Which Rite of War are you taking that allows your Catapractii Terminators to Deep Strike? They don't have that as a base rule, and I don't see drop pods for them. Combi-bolters and a power weapon will not allow you to do much with this squad (though the Grenade Harness helps). They can't run, and they can't overwatch, so really, they will be ignored until late game, if the unit ever maters at all. :( A Veteran Squad or Command Squad, with an Apothecary and your Preator rolling around in a Rhino or Land Raider (preferable) would be a much bigger threat. Also, is this a Legion Command Squad with Terminator Armor, or a Legion Terminator Squad? The points and wargear options vary greatly here. Also, the Legion Command Squad has only three models in it, with an option for 2 more. The points are way off in this squad as well.

The Master of Signals is a good choice, though you might want to give him a Boarding Shield and Plasma pistol instead.

The Legion Tactical Squads are solid, though I'd skip the extra close combat weapons and give the Sergeant a Power Fist and Artificer Armor. Also, you need a Legion Vexilla for the re-rolls on Morale Checks (remember, Legions don't have ATSKNF). If you have a Rite of War that allows you to teleport the Cataphractii Terminators, then you should also get the Nuncio-vox. Your points are off here too. 20 models +extra CC weapon is 245 points, and a plain Apothecary is 45 points, so both these units come to 580 points.

How are the Apothecaries loaded out? At the very least, I give mine Artificer Armor. It's not a bad idea to give them a Volkite Serpenta either.

The Contemptor Dread is a solid choice, though in my experience, either making him a Mortis Contemptor with two Kheres Assault Cannons for anti-air works much better, or go for a dual powerfist version for melee combat with a Dreadnought Drop Pod.

3 Rapiers with Quad Mortars are a very good choice, and pretty much represent the entirety of your anti-armor in your list. They will be the #1 target for your opponent. Especially if your opponent has a lot of vehicles. Once this unit is destroyed, your opponent will be able to roll around on the battlefield with impunity. Plan your placement with this unit carefully. Don't place it too close to the edge of the table, or after only losing two models, you'll be making a Leadership test on LD 8 and possibly running off the table. Place them in cover, and target enemy vehicles.

Another good choice is the Sicaran tank. I love the lascannons on it, and for you, they are almost mandatory for the much needed boost in anti-armor firepower. However, it almost makes for a schizophrenic tank, as it's main weapon can't really hurt the things you are firing the Lascannons at, and it's massive overkill to be shooting Lascannons at what your Accelerator Autocannons can shoot at. It's also a fast tank in a list where everything else moves 6". It would be far too easy for you to forward extend the Sicarian with no support from the rest of your army. Oh, and your Sicarian tank is 225 points, not 195.

If I was fighting against your list, the #1 target would be the Rapiers, followed by the Sicarian tank. After that, probably the Legion Tactical Squads. The Cataphractii Terminators would probably never become a factor or issue.

To make your army even better in it's current state, I would add a Spartan Land Raider for the Preator and Terminators and add an Apothecary to the unit was well. I'd also give the Terminators all power fists. Then I would look into adding a couple Rhinos or Drop Pods and Legion Support Squads armed with either Meltaguns or Plasmaguns and let them roll around killing priority targets. You would still be lacking in anti-air, but at least you would do well on the ground.

With the exception of the Praetor and Terminators, your army is off to a solid start. Get some transports in there, and think a little bit more about how to get some more anti-armor in the list, and you should do well. Also, get the new Red books because you are using the old black books points values. All your points are off.

Edited for points being way off

Transportation is hardly a must. Sure, it's nice to have 1 or 2 rhinos rolling about, but it won't really be game changing unless you're trying to pull an eldar "zoom around turn 5 objective grabbing"

I would hardly say that about Praetors. Close combat beasts that are a rather useful force multiplier Both with the ROWs and the fact that they can reliably pop 4+ marines/terminators at I: 5 I would say try not to spend over 200 points on him as loading him up with a paragon blade and power fist gives him a stupid number of attacks, ESPECIALLY with the IF bonuses to challenges.

Imperial Fist termiantors (and Night Lord terminators) can deep strike as their legion rules. Additionally, speaking as someone who frequently uses foot slogging terminators: you're putting to much stock into overwatching, combi-weapons are fine for keeping them cheap and giving them some basic ranged outbut, and power weapons includes mauls and axes, which are just fine for Anti-infantry. If you're cataphractii aren't doing anything 'till late game, you may be playing them way to conservatively

MoS is fine, but that would be a silly idea. He should be sitting back with a ranged squad to bump them to BS: 6 (if they are using bolters) or BS: 5 otherwise. Boarding shield could be a good idea, but the plasma pistol is over-costed in the best of situations, more-so when you have him hanging back with a ranged squad. Leave him as bare as possible w/ Artificer and some source of an invuln. MAYBE a power weapon at most.

Tac squads w/ extra CCWs are pretty decent when you use them right. 61 attacks on the charge (~15 wounds instead of ~10, a 50% increase) is nothing to sneeze at, even for terminators and the like. I agree with the rest though: AA on the srgt, vox + vexillia. (Vox is a double must: guides in your termiantors, AND guides your phosphex so they can stay better hidden)

I like to keep my apothecaries cheap: AA is a must, and you should heavily consider giving them the augury scanner. 5 pts. to give a tactical squad interceptor is AMAZING. Beyond that, I occasionally throw a power sword on my apothecaries

He has a point with the contemptors, but a regular one with kheres+fist is just fine as well. Dual kheres is great! Though generally only okay at AA (24" range kinda sucks for AA)

He is right on the money with the quad mortars. Give them shatter shells though, and you can mulch through basically anything AV 13 without much fear

The Sicaran is nice, if not over played, but as an Imperial Fists player, pull out the heavy support squads as the IF rules give them all tank hunter, which is amazingly fun.


Spartans are SUPER expensive, durrable, but expensive and easy to play around. You would need to bring a primus medicae to put with the terminators, since apothecaries cant. P.fists would be a good idea, but don't stess over it. Transports are NOT as manditory as they are in 40k as most of your transports will die stupidly fast, leaving only gimped infantry squads to compete with any larger infantry squads on the board. Remember: in 30k It's cheaper to bring 1 20-man tactical squad than it is to bring 2 10-man squads. Melta and Plas Support squads are also stupidly expensive, and you, as an IF player, have better access to tank killing and infantry killing in your list.

Praetors are fine as beat sticks, and termiantors, when used right, can be amazing in 30k, even when foot slogging. NEVER underestimate the 4+ invuln save

Brennonjw I agree with most of what you say. I don't have the book with Imperial Fists in it, so didn't know about Deepstriking Terminators. Does that extend to all models with Terminator armor, or just a Legion Terminator Squad?

Maneuverability is exactly zipping around on turn five taking objectives, and it also allows you to dictate the battle. Board Control is a valid strategy, and if you don't have it, then you can't use it. If both players are foot slogging, then both players have equal maneuverability. If one player has it and the other doesn't, then that player will have the initiative and can dictate where, when, and with whom battle is fought. If you don't see the advantage of that, then I don't know what to say.

What I was trying to point out with the Preator is that you don't want to invest heavily in it when he is a pretty good by himself. Keep his upgrades to a minimum- Paragon Blade and Iron Halo. Giving him Cattapractii Terminator armor does nothing but hurt his potential- it limits what he can do on the table for a 15 point savings over a Paragon Blade and Iron Halo. If he gains Deepstrike with his Terminator armor, then I'd consider giving him Terminator Armor with the intent of joining a Terminator unit.

The way I was looking at the Master of Signal was that he was going to be joining the Preator and Terminator squad, so he needed the boost in survivability. If he is just going to be sitting with a Tactical Squad of 20 models, then yeah, give him nothing. I usually throw mine in with my Heavy Support Squad.

"61 attacks on the charge" is true, if every single model was somehow able to attack. 20 models is a big footprint on the table. I'd say roughly half that many would ever make it into close combat. And you're making the assumption that the sergeant has a bolt pistol/CCW. Not a bad assumption. Plus, 20 models foot slogging across the table unharmed to get into close combat seems very optimistic.

I find Terminators to perform fairly well in 30K! Much better then in 40K. They have to have some way to close with the enemy though. Deep striking, using a Drop Pod, or some other transport to get them closer is a must. Foot slogging across the table is a recipe for disaster.

I recommended a Spartan because it's incredibly hard to kill, and while your opponent is trying to focus all his firepower on taking out the Spartan, he is ignoring all your foot slogging troops, Sicarian and Rapier guns.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Brennonjw I agree with most of what you say. I don't have the book with Imperial Fists in it, so didn't know about Deepstriking Terminators. Does that extend to all models with Terminator armor, or just a Legion Terminator Squad?

Legion Terminators and IC's in Terminator Armor may purchase the right to Deepstrike via Teleportation. Using one of their RoW, any infantry unit may be upgraded to Deepstrike as well.

My bad I forgot to mention the apothecaries do have augury scanners and as for the master of signals I don't plan on running him with the terminators I am gonna put him in one of the 20 man squafs. Also what would be a good thing to get with my extra points