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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 15:32:06
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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What is the nature of the eldar gods? Iv'e been thinking about this topic for quite some time and come up with a few theories. After spending quite some time going through what we actually know about them I've arrived to my own conclussion which drastically changes how we view the fall and the birth of slaanesh. Carefully read through the following four poll suggestions and read my analysis below, I'd love to hear thoughts and feedbacks on this.
Before I go into detail about each one of the above poll suggestions I want to propose some evidence of what we know about the gods.
First and foremost is of course the avatar of khaine. There's no denying that the Eldar have a big entity that's directly related to one of their gods. There's some facts to keep in mind about the avatar for the purpouse of this discussion. He's fractured into shards spread amongst the craftworlds. He used to have the "demonic" trait back in 4th ed (does he still?), making him interract with stuff like the grey knights nemesis force weapons in special ways. It's also required to sacrifice an eldar of some importance (the young king) during highly ritual circumstances in order to (awaken/)summon him. His precense is linked with all nearby eldar, making them feel destructive emotions and become more warlike in his precence.
Second is the timeline. The gods of the eldar where active sometime from between the war in heaven untill the birth of slaanesh. During the birth of Slaneesh presumably most where killed of except for Isha, Khaine (sort of) and Cheggorath. The war in heaven, when we first hear of the gods, is another name for the war between the Necrons and the old ones. The single biggest armed conflict in the 40k universe up to date. The Orks, eldars and old ones VS the necrons and the C'tan. From the Eldar lore we know that it's said "Isha created the eldar and that they where her favourite children" (something she gets punished for later), hinting towards the eldar gods having more children then the just the eldars. So the Eldars where supposedly created sometime around the time of the great necron war by one of their gods.
Third is the prospect of Ynnead, the yet unborn Eldar god of the dead. Ynnead is supposedly the eldars great final move. Once all the Eldars are dead, Ynnead will presumably be born and defeat slaanesh once and for all. It's sort of a parallell story to the birth of slaanesh where enormous decadance lead to the birth of their doom. On the flipside the doom of the (life of discipline of the craftworld) Eldar will bring about a polar opposite of Slaanesh. A mystical being feed by the Eldars powerfull souls strong enough to fight and best one of the four. Most of the fluff concerning Ynnead has been very speculative untill recently when Eldrad supposedly failed to summon her due to the Deathwatch interviening.
Fourth thing to keep in mind is that there's 3 "active" eldar gods. As mentioned before, Khaine (the bloody handed), who we naturally know the most about. Cheggorath (the laughing god), the guardian of the black library and the patron deity of the Harlequins. Isha (the mother of life), who's been imprisoned in the warp by Nurgle since the fall of the Eldar.
Fith and final before we go into detail about each theory is that there's some intresting interactions between the C'tan and the Eldar pantheon. Namely that Cheggorath and the deciever had some sort of relationship, making many come to he conclusion that they are either the same being or related. We know the deciever is the most active C'tan in the present, playing a big part in abbadons 13th black crusade. There's also the fact that the Eldar gods seems strongly related to the souls of the Eldar. We know that both the C'tan and the warp enteties are directly related to souls, both devouring them for nourishment.
1. They are the C'tans.
What? No, the C'tans where the necron gods and fought against the Eldar silly. Or did they?
This theory has a surprising ammount of weight behind it. You see there's some intresting analogies going on between the C'tans and the Eldar gods. We know the C'tan where turned into shards and spread across the galaxy, similar to what happened to Khaine (who was presumably the strongest of the Eldar gods, being the only one to put up a fight against Slaanesh). They are also the only god-like beings (except big E) that we know of that exists outside of the warp. Deamons, no matter how powerfull, cannot remain in our reality for very long. They need to bring the warp with them where they go. The eldar gods we know of seems to be able to exist permanently outside of the warp. Cheggorath exists in the webway and doesn't seem bothered by it's lack of chaos.
Timewise it makes some sence too. Seeing as how the Necrons went to war with the C'tan and then, when they started losing, turned to infighting and later semi-complete destruction of one another it would make sence that some C'tan saw a chance to join forces with the Eldars instead. The Old ones weapons where pretty much useless against the C'tan, so it's not that much of a stretch to think some of the C'tan simply took over parts of eldar society under the guise of gods. Some might even have been benevolent. We know from the 3d ed assasin codex that the Deciever is able to change his shape, hence it's definetly possible other C'tan had a similar ability. If they lived among the eldars and fed of the Eldars souls they could easily have eventually engineered, by mistake or not, the fall of the eldars.
The three big holes in this theory is he fact that the C'tan feed on souls, which we have no recolection of except for the sacrifices for Ynnead and Khaine. The fact that Isha created the Eldar and hence must have been around before the eldars and necrons clashed, and finally that it does not in any way explain how the C'tan gods didn't take any form of countermeassure to stop the fall, seeing as the C'tan where enemies of chaos.
2. They are warp enteties
We know very little of the warp before it turned to chaos. Before the war in heaven the warp went under the name "the Empyrian" or "the sea of souls". It was a calm dimensions where the old ones asserted themselves as the rulers. However, knowing as we do that the warp responds to emotions and spawns deities seemingly all of it own, it would make sence that pre-deamon warp enteties where just as powerfull but not as intrested in doing chaos things. Hence it makes some sence that the dominant species of the galaxy, the Eldars, would spawn several beings to reflect their desires, lifes and needs. There's some things that's easily explained with this theory. For instance that the Avatar had the "demonic" trait despite lacking many other demonic properties. It stands to reason however that if this is the case the Eldar gods should have followed the same rules as the modern day chaos enteties, such as being of limited time in he materium and bringing the warp with them. We simply do not know the "rules" for the ancient chaos beings so it's very difficult to argue for or against some of theese points. It also doesn't explain how Khaine was turned into shards. Of course, it could stand to reason that the warp enteties in questions are....
3. They are the old ones.
...The old ones. This is an easy assumption to make. Seeing as the old ones created the Eldar, a role which is filled by Isha in the pantheon lore. It also says the gods taught the Eldars how to fight/make wars, and the old ones had to make them fight the Necrons by introducing wraithbone to the species. In the Eldar lore this falls very much in line with the story of Asurmen being the first warrior of the eldar and later training the older phoenix lords, leading to the Eldar way of wars being established. Quite simply this theory makes an awfull lot of sence. The C'tan fought the old ones so it makes sence some of the C'tans and old ones interracted with one another in various ways besides murder. It also makes sence that, seeing as the old ones once acended to the warp they might have the ability to descend again, and hence exsist in the material universe. What this does not explain is the characteristics of the gods themselves. It's possible the old ones had very specific traits, such as the murderous/rapist tendencies of khaine or the unpredictable nature of Cheggorath. If so to me it stands more to reason that the old ones where influenced by the mirror-nature of the warp and became personas of the dominant species of the galaxy, namely the Eldar. However, this does not explain how Khaine was put into shards. I suppose it could have been as a last ditch effort to save him, by using the necron shard technology to spread him out. The issue with this theory is the birth of Ynnead. Why would a new old one spawn from dead Eldars?
4. Non-existent and mythological
It's entirely possible that there are no real Eldar gods. That the Avatar is really just an aspect of Khorne, that Cheggorath is really the Harlequin king or the deciever (in disguise!) and that Isha simply doesn't exist but is simply a tale of Nurgle land. After all, no mortal will ever confirm this. It could all be stories warped through time and now not a all real.
5. other
This is for the theories I missed. Facts and thoughts I've left out or simply not thought up.
Analysis:
This will probably come as a surprise to many but I personally think the Eldar gods are spread into two catagories, the C'tan and the warp enteties. I believe that there where C'tans that abandoned the Necrons during or pre their civil war to join up with the Eldars. I also believe some old ones where elevated to god status by the Eldars. In particular I think Khaine and Cheggorath are C'tan. In many situations the disagreement between the gods could stem from them having diffrent upbringings and simply being diffrent deities. We've also seen that the C'tans can be quite emotional and have specific characteristics. The demonic nature of the Avatar, which the C'tan does not share, could come from the ritual involved in awakening it, and the eldars souls might simply have become connected with it through the aeons in which it existed among them. Khaine is also the only C'tan to actively fight an Eldar hero, and win. To me it's very strange for a pantheon god to fight a hero of the very same species, hence it makes sence that he'd be a C'tan. Finally I believe Ynnead is a deity that's being born in a sort of surrogate warp, A warp entety created much like the ancient warp enteties would have been created, back when the warp was calm. Hence, I believe the gods fall into all three catagouries. The C'tan, the old ones and the warp enteties.
We know little to nothing about the big 3 (Khorne, Nurgle and Tzheentch) actions during the war in heavens and the fall of the Eldars. Other than they being around all we are aware of is that they awated Slaanesh.
So to sum it all up:
I believe Khaine is a more or less enslaved C'tan by the eldar, Cheggorath is a C'tan on the run, Isha is an old one imprisoned in the warp and Ynnead is a warp entety of a diffrent description.
Thoughts? Huge holes in the theory? Ideas?
This was quite the effort btw, I'll do a big spellcheck and such later.
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 15:49:27
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Agile Revenant Titan
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My personal take is that the Eldar Gods are warp-spawned reflections of the Eldar's racial memory of the Old Ones and the other combatants in the War in Heaven.
It's unknown what form the Old Ones were, whether they were a single species or a collection of different species (with each Eldar god reflecting a particular race).
However, after they were destroyed during the War in Heaven the Eldar's racial memory of them manifested in the warp as their pantheon (Cegorach being a reflection of the C'Tan The Deceiver).
Personally, I don't think Khaine being a C'Tan holds much water. The warp is anathema to the C'Tan, and the avatar having daemonic properties just does not fit with what we know about the C'Tan.
There was a C'Tan that played both sides in the conflict, The Deceiver/Mephet'ran. It's my thinking that the eldar racial memory of him manifested Cegorach.
When it comes to Khaine's shattering, I think it's likely that he was banished from the warp by Slaanesh. Shattered into fragments and forced to manifest in the real world, anchored to the infinity circuits of the eldar craftworlds.
In human religions, it's actually somewhat of a modern development to have deities that are benevolent. If you look at most. if not all of the older pantheons there are plenty of gods and goddesses that murdered their followers. I would have no trouble believing that the Eldar God of Murder would not be a benevolent god.
Check out Ares for the direct real-world inspiration behind much of Khaine's story.
Also, it's my opinion (supported by a bit of the fluff) that the 3 chaos powers prior to the war in heaven did exist, but were far less powerful/malignant than they are today. Through the turmoil caused by the war in heaven, they were twisted into malefic forms.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 17:06:27
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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They are warp entities. The warp is essentially a psychological reflection of the nature of all living sentient races (of significant enough size) in the material universe.
So, during the time of the Eldar empire, the Eldar gods would be taking up most of the space in the universe. The main chaos gods would be dimished, or in different forms (khough khough Khaine/Khorne) When Eldar spirits turned more towards slaaneshi pursuits, Slaanesh was born and when that happened she exploded into being and ate the other Eldar gods, who at that point would have been diminished because of the emotional degradation of the eldar empire.
Right now, with the universe dominated by man and ork, the god-emperor, Gork and Mork, and the chaos gods are the strongest entities in the warp.
Necrons gave up their souls to become robutts, so wouldn't have enough influence to create a major warp entity.
Tau empire is too small, hence their slight/nonexistent warp footprint.
Eldar and Dark eldar have highly diminished gods because of their low population, though their low numbers are bolstered by the souls they store in Infinity circuits/maybe in the webway.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 17:22:53
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Tunneling Trygon
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
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My theory is that they were created by the Old Ones to guide the Eldar (either "deified" Eldar or pure Warp entities), but that the mythology surrounding them is mostly just that; the Eldar's attempts to explain the history of their mostly-distant gods. The Eldar gods are just so very, very different to the Chaos or Ork gods. They're much more like people than the vast and abstract psychic phenomena that are the latter.
Also, the Eldar gods existed during the war with the Necrons, but we have no reason to believe that Gork or Mork did. The Chaos powers came into being much later, helped along by the "pollution" of the Warp by the Old Ones. It's interesting to note that the Chaos Gods are not species-specific in any sense, while the Eldar and Ork gods are.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 17:29:58
Subject: Re:The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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We can be fairly certain that they are warp entities because they do/have done warpy stuff - getting absorbed by other gods, being contactable via giant warp portals, possessing statues etc.
In 'Echoes of the Birth' in Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh, we get to see something of the creation of the Eldar Gods - the Old Ones instruct the Eldar to create their gods for use in the War in Heaven.
Xenology heavily implies that there is a direct continuity between some of the Old Ones and certain Eldar deities, suggesting that either some or all of the gods were based upon specific Old Ones, or that the Old Ones became the gods directly somehow. There is also cross-over between the Eldar pantheon and those of other races (notably the Hrud), which might add support to the idea that the gods were based upon specific Old Ones.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 17:30:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 17:34:01
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Wicked Warp Spider
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I think that they might be actual Old Ones, which decided not to flee the Milky Way, but chose/were forced to somehow stay hidden in various places of Warp (Khaine), Webway (Cegorach), Infinity Circuits (Isha) or World Spirits (Kurnous) after the War in Heaven, each one for different reasons - Khaine wouldn't flee because he treated Eldar as his property which only he could torment, not some puny Slaanesh; Cegorah had some cunning long-game plan in mind; Isha because of love of her creation and Kurnous because of Isha.
This would also mean, that Ynnead is just an angry face of Isha when she finally lost all of her children.
To make this theory plausible, I assume that when Old Ones harnessed the Immaterium, they eventually became Immatarium entities and after the main bulk of Old Ones have fled from the Milky Way, those who stayed must now all "feed" on Eldar psychic presence/rage/emotions becasue they are now separated from the rest of their own race.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 18:16:24
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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The C'Tan angle doesn't really make sense, given that the Eldar gods are explicitly warp beings of some kind and the C'tan are absolutely anti-warp beings.
If Cegorach was a C'tan he would not be capable of contesting Slaanesh for the souls of fallen Solitaires, for example.
I think they were simply formed from the thoughts and feelings of the Eldar reflected into the warp.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 18:16:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 21:27:32
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Frozen Ocean wrote:My theory is that they were created by the Old Ones to guide the Eldar (either "deified" Eldar or pure Warp entities), but that the mythology surrounding them is mostly just that; the Eldar's attempts to explain the history of their mostly-distant gods. The Eldar gods are just so very, very different to the Chaos or Ork gods. They're much more like people than the vast and abstract psychic phenomena that are the latter.
Also, the Eldar gods existed during the war with the Necrons, but we have no reason to believe that Gork or Mork did. The Chaos powers came into being much later, helped along by the "pollution" of the Warp by the Old Ones. It's interesting to note that the Chaos Gods are not species-specific in any sense, while the Eldar and Ork gods are.
I can't remember where I read it, but I definitely read that one theory about the Eldar gods is that they are an amalgamation of the warp-constructs the Eldar were created to unleash against the Necrons.
I'm imagining War in Heaven Eldar as phenomenally powerful psykers, summoning hordes upon hordes of eldar-formed daemons (sort of like mini-avatars) to unleash against the Necrons and C'Tan, with 'Isha-medics' and 'Kurnous-hunters' interspersed between the 'Khaine-warriors'. That would certainly fulfill the Old Ones' feat of 'weaponising the warp'.
After the war in heaven, these entities coalesced into the pantheon we now know.
Whether that's true at all I have no idea, but it's an interesting concept.
Either way, I like the idea of War in Heaven daemon-summoning Eldar warlocks
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/31 21:47:43
Subject: The nature of the Eldar pantheon gods
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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Ynneadwraith wrote: Frozen Ocean wrote:My theory is that they were created by the Old Ones to guide the Eldar (either "deified" Eldar or pure Warp entities), but that the mythology surrounding them is mostly just that; the Eldar's attempts to explain the history of their mostly-distant gods. The Eldar gods are just so very, very different to the Chaos or Ork gods. They're much more like people than the vast and abstract psychic phenomena that are the latter.
Also, the Eldar gods existed during the war with the Necrons, but we have no reason to believe that Gork or Mork did. The Chaos powers came into being much later, helped along by the "pollution" of the Warp by the Old Ones. It's interesting to note that the Chaos Gods are not species-specific in any sense, while the Eldar and Ork gods are.
I can't remember where I read it, but I definitely read that one theory about the Eldar gods is that they are an amalgamation of the warp-constructs the Eldar were created to unleash against the Necrons.
I'm imagining War in Heaven Eldar as phenomenally powerful psykers, summoning hordes upon hordes of eldar-formed daemons (sort of like mini-avatars) to unleash against the Necrons and C'Tan, with 'Isha-medics' and 'Kurnous-hunters' interspersed between the 'Khaine-warriors'. That would certainly fulfill the Old Ones' feat of 'weaponising the warp'.
After the war in heaven, these entities coalesced into the pantheon we now know.
Whether that's true at all I have no idea, but it's an interesting concept.
Either way, I like the idea of War in Heaven daemon-summoning Eldar warlocks 
I like it, particularly with the parallels to Tolkein-esque mythology. Daemons are to these Warp-god avatars as Orks are to the Elves: Corruptions from powerful and malign influence.
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