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Hey everyone, So i've been out of the hobby since 3rd edition but looking to get back into competitive tournaments and GD painting. Still trying to understand all the changes, some are welcome (no more I3 Salamanders), some less so (no more rhino rush). Here's my first attempt at a balanced tourney list I'd look to take to BAO etc.
My goal was a balanced ObSec list that can take out MCs, MEQ, GEQ (with significant redundancy) where all my units are ideally equally threatening to my opponent.
I have an alternative to this list where I replace my suppression force with more Grav-Cannons and Combi-Gravs on my Sgts (so i can mastercraft for free). From looking at the types of lists that appear in tournaments this may be a smart idea.
Considering dropping He'stan in exchange for a normal Captain and another Whirlwind. I only have 3 MMs in the list and another WW gives me Shred and Pinning. Considering the amount of TLLC in my list dropping armour isn't going to be a problem for me, its dropping GEQ infantry.
You aren't really using what Salamander CTs and Vulkan bring to the table with this list. Too much spent on vehicle auxillaries is the primary culprit - look at Iron Hands if you want to take that much armor.
Salamanders battle companies usually try and squeeze in a 1st company formation with 3 sternguard units in pods as the auxillary, with as many combi-meltas as you can afford. This is because Vulkan MCs both the melta and the special ammo.
Alternatively you can go with the ubiquitous 10th company as your auxillary (and give the sgts combi-s if points to spare) and look to max out the battle company free transports and such, especially getting double command squads with melta.
Also, if you look at Gladius the tacticals get two rounds of full rerolls without vulkan via doctrines, so my theoretical build (as I too have a 3/4ed salamanders army not 7ed era) put the grav on the tacticals and melta and flamers on other units.
Finally, Salamanders make a bit better drop pod based BCs rather than razor/rhino. Their short range focus and lack of any synergy with vehicles leads most builds to go drop pod. Granted you probably want a few rhinos/razors for support and late game mobility.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
Not wedded to Salamanders, other than I have a bunch already built/painted. Iron Hands is an interesting play, FNP and IWND are hot, and fits with the amount of armor I'm running. Just don't want to do White Scars.
Made a few modifications, Dev squads get Rhinos so they can become mobile grav spamming pseudo-razorbacks.
I'm torn with drop pods, 8 twin linked las cannon razorbacks are my primary anti-tank/MC counter, but I do like the distraction/surprise element they bring to a game.
The main problem I see with both lists is the mix of short range weapons and razorbacks. Razorbacks want to remain as stationery as possible to shoot the turret gun effectively, whilst melta and grav weapons want to be at closer ranges to be effective. If you're not fixed on playing salamanders, then white scars or raptors will be better chapter tactics for either list posted, as they can get access to scout which helps fix the mobility issues.
If you did want to play as salamanders using melta and grav, to be effective you would be better off with drop pods, reinvesting the points spent on razorback turrets on more melta/grav, for example:
Spoiler:
Battle Demi-Company One (Core Choice 1)
Captain, cataphractii armour and salamanders mantle 155pts
Ass Sqd (5) vet sarge with eviscerator 105pts
Tac Sqd (5) meltagun, combimelta 90pts
Tac Sqd (5) meltagun, combimelta 90pts
Tac Sqd (5) meltagun, combimelta 90pts
Dev Sqd (5) Grav-Cannon x4, combigrav, cherub 225pts
Com Sqd (5) meltagun/stormshield x3, apothecary, champion 180pts
Suppression Force (Auxiliary Choice 1)
Whirlwind (2) 130pts
Land Speeder, 2x multimelta 70pts
Strike Force Command (Command Choice 1)
Vulkan 190pts
Sergeants with melta weapons (and apothecary) MC their krak grenades, other sergeants (and HQ's/champion) MC their priciest weapons, Captain babysits the grav devastators, chaplain in the command squad, vulkan with either assault squad or 2nd devastators. A few unusual choices thrown in like vet sarge and 2nd devastator squad geared up for CQC as you mentioned GD painting and they could be interesting centre pieces in the otherwise bland gladius
Insularum wrote: The main problem I see with both lists is the mix of short range weapons and razorbacks. Razorbacks want to remain as stationery as possible to shoot the turret gun effectively, whilst melta and grav weapons want to be at closer ranges to be effective. If you're not fixed on playing salamanders, then white scars or raptors will be better chapter tactics for either list posted, as they can get access to scout which helps fix the mobility issues.:
Thanks! I straight up lol'd at the CCDev Squad. If i went drop pod I'd get rid of the Whirlwinds, i think they'd be pretty useless if the rest of my marines have to get up-close but i believe they may be useful in more of a stand off list.
The mix of short range (24" MMs, GCs, Boltguns) and long range (LCs on RBs) is on-purpose. Without getting into a ton of tactic detail, much of which is dependent on the game and my opponent, not every RB would be moving every turn and not every squad has to stay inside. A common scenario i foresee is on my first turn half my RBs/Rhinos flat out 12" for cover or pop smoke. On my following turn there's a 24" ring of death in the mid-field, and its the mid-field i want to own.
Jac wrote: Thanks! I straight up lol'd at the CCDev Squad. If i went drop pod I'd get rid of the Whirlwinds, i think they'd be pretty useless if the rest of my marines have to get up-close but i believe they may be useful in more of a stand off list.
The mix of short range (24" MMs, GCs, Boltguns) and long range (LCs on RBs) is on-purpose. Without getting into a ton of tactic detail, much of which is dependent on the game and my opponent, not every RB would be moving every turn and not every squad has to stay inside. A common scenario i foresee is on my first turn half my RBs/Rhinos flat out 12" for cover or pop smoke. On my following turn there's a 24" ring of death in the mid-field, and its the mid-field i want to own.
Yeah the whirlwinds aren't exactly optimal, but they can be surprisingly durable when hidden behind terrain and your opponent will be prioritising the swarm of drop pod marines (especially the devestators ), if they do nothing other than shoot at units forced out of their transports by meltaguns they will still get their points back.
However if you are interested in owning the midfield with razorbacks, that is the number one entry in the whitescars/raptors playbook - army wide scout will have you in position before turn one so you don't lose firepower from flat out moves (and being closer earlier makes the other turret options more usable too). Whitescars are probably better due to hit and run, but raptors don't need a special character to unlock scout and also the rending bolters will boost your 24" death zone.
Insularum wrote: However if you are interested in owning the midfield with razorbacks, that is the number one entry in the whitescars/raptors playbook - army wide scout will have you in position before turn one so you don't lose firepower from flat out moves (and being closer earlier makes the other turret options more usable too). Whitescars are probably better due to hit and run, but raptors don't need a special character to unlock scout and also the rending bolters will boost your 24" death zone.
Seriously considering Raptors, their Chapter Tactics align very closely with my list and play style, Lias Issodon is also pretty buff.
Okay, to close this one out, I've completely changed my list. Now I'm using Raptors instead of Salamanders and I've gone with a podded 1st Company instead of Suppression and Anti-Air.
Raptors chapter tactics kinda kick ass. Scout, Shrouded (1st turn), Rending bolters. Mixed with Lias' "Infiltrate, Isolate, Destroy" special rule and "Master of Ambush" gives me a ton of tactical flexibility game to game. Only downside is anti-air, Frakk missiles kinda suck but its cheap insurance, plus with my TLLCRBs I shouldn't have an issue with flyers.
The Sternguard are going to be the real damage dealers here, two combi-melta's per unit, special ammo, with Fearless, Fear, and Terrifying Proficiency. Again, they'll give me a ton of options from game to game.
Only issue with the list is that I'm using Forge World rules.
), if they do nothing other than shoot at units forced out of their transports by meltaguns they will still get their points back.