Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all,

Had something come up in a game and I couldn't find a clear clarification anywhere. Basically my opponent put down his dreadnought drop pod, and kept his dreadnought standing on the door the turn it landed. Now this means that Dreadnought has shrouded - however he also claimed (and I allowed since i couldn't find anything to the contrary) that he would get the 25% obscured cover save + shrouded (therefore 3+ cover save) because the dreadnought was also 25% obscured by the drop pod, this how it works?

IIRC , just shrouded

Depends on line of sight. so if obscured yes.

Basically, there was one of the sticky up bits of the pod (the frame that the door close onto) between the firer and the target, the target was a contemptor so that frame will easily obscure 25% of it.
I mean, the way its written i can't see why they wouldn't, just seems ridiculous as if you leave the dreadnought in the middle of the pod it will be getting 3+ cover from a lot of angles.

Intervening units plus shrouded stack.

Vehicles are 100% true line of sight, even walkers (another reason why MC's are so much better...) The book is very explicit on that. I don't see how a pod can provide the bonus to cover.

If the doors are down, there is no obstruction to the model.

 djones520 wrote:
Vehicles are 100% true line of sight, even walkers (another reason why MC's are so much better...) The book is very explicit on that. I don't see how a pod can provide the bonus to cover.

If the doors are down, there is no obstruction to the model.

I know that a walker has to be 25% obscured to get the cover save.
My opps argument was that the 3 things going up to meet in the middle provide the 25% obscured:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99590101069_DreadnoughtDropPod03.jpg


EDIT: Unrelated but they fixed Monstrous Creatures in the FAQ

He could have left the dread in the pod to begin with; you should kill the pod first basically

 Fruzzle wrote:
He could have left the dread in the pod to begin with; you should kill the pod first basically

The pods rule gives him shrouded if he is standing on the doors or if he is standing in the middle, he purposely stood on a door to try and create a better angle with the bit of the pod that still sticks up.
No one has really given me a straight yes or no here though, I am just going to assume yes, you can in theory get a 3+ cover save from a dreadnought droppod if you can somehow make yourself 25% obscured while still standing on it.

If the dreadnought did not leave the pod, you cannot shoot at it as it is still inside a transport.

You cannot shoot a unit inside another unit, otherwise you need house rules for determining LOS, level of cover, and what side you are hitting. Then on subsequent turns the Burning Retros rule goes away and suddenly it's just a regular open-topped transport. It doesn't make any sense the way you guys are playing it.

The Dreadnought Drop Pod works like this:

If you stay inside: no one can shoot you but your ranged attacks are also subject to shrouded, as is any attack that crosses any part of the drop pod. So you are safe from melee and shooting, but your own firepower is depleted.

If you disembark: you can be shot normally, but cannot be assaulted. You cannot be charged and your shots are unobscured, but you face the full brunt of the enemy's guns.

HandofMars wrote:
If the dreadnought did not leave the pod, you cannot shoot at it as it is still inside a transport.

You cannot shoot a unit inside another unit, otherwise you need house rules for determining LOS, level of cover, and what side you are hitting. Then on subsequent turns the Burning Retros rule goes away and suddenly it's just a regular open-topped transport. It doesn't make any sense the way you guys are playing it.

The Dreadnought Drop Pod works like this:

If you stay inside: no one can shoot you but your ranged attacks are also subject to shrouded, as is any attack that crosses any part of the drop pod. So you are safe from melee and shooting, but your own firepower is depleted.

If you disembark: you can be shot normally, but cannot be assaulted. You cannot be charged and your shots are unobscured, but you face the full brunt of the enemy's guns.

Sorry but you are 100% off the mark here, copied directly from the red book:

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect"

Bolded the important bit.

Ok, which "this is the case" it is referring to? "Does not have to deploy out" or "unless the controlling player wishes"?

Your interpretation does not make sense. A unit embarked in a transport is not on the table, so you need the following house rules to make your interpretation work.

Need house rule on how to determine TLOS to a unit not on table.

Need house rule to determine where the unit is facing while embarked.

Need house rule to determine how much of a unit not on the table is concealed by another unit that is on the table.

How the hell do you shoot into a transport one turn, while there is a giant cloud of smoke and dust concealing it, and then subsequent turns when the smoke and dust settle, all of a sudden it's an impregnable transport again. Another house rule?

There are two interpretations of this rule. One works within the confines of the rules exactly like it always has, except now the pod is 1. more expensive (nerf), 2. subjects the occupants' shooting to shrouding too (nerf), 3. prevents you from being charged (buff).

The other interpretation does not work with the rules at all, requiring all the house rules above, and the result for the pod is: 1. more expensive (nerf), 2. shooting is shrouded (nerf), 3. enemies can shoot into a transport (nerf).

What is more likely? A massive triple nerf and a non-working rule? Or a functional rule that takes the pod down a notch but still gives it a bit of a boost to justify the 50% cost increase?

HandofMars----yes they nerfed the dreadnought drop pod a lot in the new red book. It can be shot while still inside the pod.

How most people I have seen playing it and I agree is this:

Pod lands- has shrouded, dreadnought stays inside it gets cover from the pod so cover 5+ then + shrouded = a 3+ cover save if it stays in the pod. Pretty much everyone I know plays it that way.

For a leviathan it really isn't that big a deal as it has a 4++ anyway. So by staying in the pod it gets an extra +1 save.

However since the pod is shrouded, the dreadnought would then also be giving anyone its shooting at shrouded unless its using the grav bombard to ignore cover...this one is alittle hazier I think but how I believe it works.

Okay, so you invented a bunch of house rules to make this rule work the way you think it's supposed to. How do you determine what side you hit of the dreadnought, since it's not on the table and a Leviathan actually can't even physically fit inside the dread pod?

What do you do on subsequent turns, when the dreadnought stays inside the pod, and the Burning Retros rule has expired? You were just able to fire at the dreadnought through all that dusk and smoke! Why all of a sudden you can't shoot at that now generic open-topped transport?

It doesn't make any sense.

HandofMars wrote:
Okay, so you invented a bunch of house rules to make this rule work the way you think it's supposed to. How do you determine what side you hit of the dreadnought, since it's not on the table and a Leviathan actually can't even physically fit inside the dread pod?

What do you do on subsequent turns, when the dreadnought stays inside the pod, and the Burning Retros rule has expired? You were just able to fire at the dreadnought through all that dusk and smoke! Why all of a sudden you can't shoot at that now generic open-topped transport?

It doesn't make any sense.

Mate I gave you the quote from the Horus Heresy rule book word for word, the dreadnought can stay in the pod but can still be shot at.
Chaos45 answered my initial question - seems he sees most people playing it like my opponent suggested.

sm3g wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Okay, so you invented a bunch of house rules to make this rule work the way you think it's supposed to. How do you determine what side you hit of the dreadnought, since it's not on the table and a Leviathan actually can't even physically fit inside the dread pod?

What do you do on subsequent turns, when the dreadnought stays inside the pod, and the Burning Retros rule has expired? You were just able to fire at the dreadnought through all that dusk and smoke! Why all of a sudden you can't shoot at that now generic open-topped transport?

It doesn't make any sense.

Mate I gave you the quote from the Horus Heresy rule book word for word, the dreadnought can stay in the pod but can still be shot at.
Chaos45 answered my initial question - seems he sees most people playing it like my opponent suggested.

The quote you gave me is vague and has been interpreted in different ways.

I genuinely do not care at all how people want to play it, I am just curious how you navigate all the issues surrounding this? If you do not choose to walk out onto the doors of the pod and stay "inside", the model is literally not on the table. How do you determine which side it is facing, how much concealment it gets from the pod other than shrouding? What do you do on subsequent turns, maintain the "can shoot into pod" rule but just drop the shrouding?

HandofMars wrote:

sm3g wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Okay, so you invented a bunch of house rules to make this rule work the way you think it's supposed to. How do you determine what side you hit of the dreadnought, since it's not on the table and a Leviathan actually can't even physically fit inside the dread pod?

What do you do on subsequent turns, when the dreadnought stays inside the pod, and the Burning Retros rule has expired? You were just able to fire at the dreadnought through all that dusk and smoke! Why all of a sudden you can't shoot at that now generic open-topped transport?

It doesn't make any sense.

Mate I gave you the quote from the Horus Heresy rule book word for word, the dreadnought can stay in the pod but can still be shot at.
Chaos45 answered my initial question - seems he sees most people playing it like my opponent suggested.

The quote you gave me is vague and has been interpreted in different ways.

I genuinely do not care at all how people want to play it, I am just curious how you navigate all the issues surrounding this? If you do not choose to walk out onto the doors of the pod and stay "inside", the model is literally not on the table. How do you determine which side it is facing, how much concealment it gets from the pod other than shrouding? What do you do on subsequent turns, maintain the "can shoot into pod" rule but just drop the shrouding?

Haven't had the scenario of not walking onto a door come up in my games yet.
Also how is this at all vague: "though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks". How else would one interpret that?

And to answer, what happens the next turn, they also explain that:
"The burning retro’s effect lasts from the player turn in which the Dreadnought Drop Pod landed until the controlling player’s next player turn. After this point, both the Drop Pod and the Dreadnought may be assaulted and shot at normally"

So turn it lands: Dreadnought can stay inside the pod, potentially gaining a cover save of 3+ if you position it right. The dreadnought can be shot but not assaulted.
Turns after that one: Dreadnought can stay inside but still be shot at and assaulted like normal.

Genuinely curious, have you read the newest red book? It seems the rules you claim are not clear are explained better in that one than previous books....

sm3g wrote:

Also how is this at all vague: "though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks". How else would one interpret that?

And to answer, what happens the next turn, they also explain that:
"The burning retro’s effect lasts from the player turn in which the Dreadnought Drop Pod landed until the controlling player’s next player turn. After this point, both the Drop Pod and the Dreadnought may be assaulted and shot at normally"

So turn it lands: Dreadnought can stay inside the pod, potentially gaining a cover save of 3+ if you position it right. The dreadnought can be shot but not assaulted.
Turns after that one: Dreadnought can stay inside but still be shot at and assaulted like normal.

Genuinely curious, have you read the newest red book? It seems the rules you claim are not clear are explained better in that one than previous books....

To address these in turn:

For the first, after initially assuming I can just shoot at the dread in the pod and being very sad for my contemptors, I was confronted with the argument: In the sentence, "the player may choose to not disembark unless they want to, and if this is the case, blah blah" that "if this is the case" could be referring to the "unless they want to". My response was that if that was the intent, there would be a comma before "unless", but given FW's past track record with proper use of language, I had to admit it was grammatically at least imprecise.

There is also the mechanical problem. My Leviathan does not fit in the pod. Normally I could just aim in any direction out of an open topped transport without having to declare facing of the vehicle. How do you determine whether a Leviathan gets cover, as well as which side you are hitting (front armor, rear armor, etc), when the model is not on the table? Do you just house rule that you must declare facing when deploying the pod and the dread gets cover by default if "inside" rather than on one of the petals?

The bolded part is a good point, something I somehow kept overlooking, and will bring up next game. However it also presents some interesting conundrums. How do you assault and get in base to base with something inside a drop pod? In 40k the petals are part of an enemy model, although I guess that's only for Codex: Space Marine pods and thus does not apply to 30K. If ignoring the petals, do you again just house rule if you have enough charge distance to reach the center of the pod you can make attacks against the dreadnought inside? Does this count as charging an enemy in cover?

I can see what they intend with the rule, it's just mechanically it requires a lot of hand-waving to actually make work.

HandofMars wrote:

sm3g wrote:

Also how is this at all vague: "though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks". How else would one interpret that?

And to answer, what happens the next turn, they also explain that:
"The burning retro’s effect lasts from the player turn in which the Dreadnought Drop Pod landed until the controlling player’s next player turn. After this point, both the Drop Pod and the Dreadnought may be assaulted and shot at normally"

So turn it lands: Dreadnought can stay inside the pod, potentially gaining a cover save of 3+ if you position it right. The dreadnought can be shot but not assaulted.
Turns after that one: Dreadnought can stay inside but still be shot at and assaulted like normal.

Genuinely curious, have you read the newest red book? It seems the rules you claim are not clear are explained better in that one than previous books....

To address these in turn:

For the first, after initially assuming I can just shoot at the dread in the pod and being very sad for my contemptors, I was confronted with the argument: In the sentence, "the player may choose to not disembark unless they want to, and if this is the case, blah blah" that "if this is the case" could be referring to the "unless they want to". My response was that if that was the intent, there would be a comma before "unless", but given FW's past track record with proper use of language, I had to admit it was grammatically at least imprecise.

There is also the mechanical problem. My Leviathan does not fit in the pod. Normally I could just aim in any direction out of an open topped transport without having to declare facing of the vehicle. How do you determine whether a Leviathan gets cover, as well as which side you are hitting (front armor, rear armor, etc), when the model is not on the table? Do you just house rule that you must declare facing when deploying the pod and the dread gets cover by default if "inside" rather than on one of the petals?

The bolded part is a good point, something I somehow kept overlooking, and will bring up next game. However it also presents some interesting conundrums. How do you assault and get in base to base with something inside a drop pod? In 40k the petals are part of an enemy model, although I guess that's only for Codex: Space Marine pods and thus does not apply to 30K. If ignoring the petals, do you again just house rule if you have enough charge distance to reach the center of the pod you can make attacks against the dreadnought inside? Does this count as charging an enemy in cover?

I can see what they intend with the rule, it's just mechanically it requires a lot of hand-waving to actually make work.

Funny you mention that charging thing, my mate has emailed FW asking for a rule clarification around all things pod because it's a bit messy. If the doors do indeed count as part of the model (like in the draft 40k space marine FAQ that would not apply to 30k) then charging the dreadnought would not be possible as you'd have to move on top of an enemy model surely? But then perhaps that is the intent, "assaulted and shot at normally" in this instance the normal assault rules would not permit you to charge the dreadnought if it meant walking over an enemy model - is this what they mean? As in just follow the regular assault rules for the rest of the game and all the funky stuff from when it initially landed no longer applies?

Exactly, the rule is a damn mess. If read the way "everyone plays it", you need to basically house rule line of sight, cover, facing and base-to-base contact.

The other interpretation works within the mechanics of the game. So let's assume the argument I was presented is right, and FW is bad at grammar, and they mean that those rules are in place if you choose to disembark.

So if disembark:
Dreadnought can be shot normally but not assaulted. - no house rules required.
LOS determined normally, with any lines crossing pod getting shrouded. - no house rules required.

If stay on pod:
Can only shoot vehicle as per normal vehicle rules - no house rules required.
LOS as above - no house rules required.
After first turn, assault and shoot at normally, i.e. shrouding is gone, must destroy transport to get at contents, if dreadnought had previously disembarked it can now be assaulted, etc. - no house rules required.