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Hey guys,

So my group is starting to buy Flyers for their armies, which means that I feel that I need to be able to counter them (since - in my experience - no amount of Snapfiring at Flyers will ever truly be effective or viable). So that got me on to thinking what would be the most points-efficient way of dealing with Flyers? Here's my thoughts on it so far:

-- I could take one or more Devastator Squads equipped with 4x Missile Launchers w/ Flakk Missiles.
-- -- I could also make it a 10-man Unit so I can Combat Squad the unit so that there are two units each with 2x 4x Missile Launchers w/ Flakk Missiles to avoid all four being tied up and/or destroyed by Shooting/CC.

Either way that I do the above can get expensive.

-- Use one of the Dedicated AA units in the Space Marine Codex (Hunters, Stalkers).

Given that I usually play games that are 2,000 Points or less, I'm not sure how points-efficient these units are.

-- I could take a Flyer.
-- -- I could either take one from the Space Marine Codex, but I get the feeling that there are Flyers out there that I don't know about (FW and what not) that may be better picks.

I get the feeling this is my best option.

-- I could get an Imperial Knight and equip it with a 'Twin Icarus Autocannon'

I think this is my 2nd best option after taking a Flyer since the Knight will be able to do massive damage outside of its Slyfire capabilities.


What are your thoughts on this? What would my best option be?

Cheers

I like the storm talons two of them are a nice addition to an army and i just love the look of them. they can do some serious damage in the air and on the ground. also not that pricey points wise

What army is he using? The best option is entirely dependent on what kind of fliers you are dealing with.

Well... That's not entirely true. The BEST option is to take something that doesn't normally have Skyfire and give it skyfire. A set of Command Tanks can give Skyfire to one unit a turn, and once per game can let a unit for Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill. There's also a relic in the new Cadia book that does the same, though it's only for an infantry squad with an attached character holding the relic, and you need to bring Belisarius Cawl to get access.

Another option is to take a Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought. If stationary, he can fire his guns with Skyfire and Interceptor, potentially giving 12 S6 AP4 rending shots and 2 S8 AP3 shots, all with Skyfire.

Waaaghpower wrote:
What army is he using? The best option is entirely dependent on what kind of fliers you are dealing with.

Well... That's not entirely true. The BEST option is to take something that doesn't normally have Skyfire and give it skyfire. A set of Command Tanks can give Skyfire to one unit a turn, and once per game can let a unit for Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill. There's also a relic in the new Cadia book that does the same, though it's only for an infantry squad with an attached character holding the relic, and you need to bring Belisarius Cawl to get access.

Another option is to take a Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought. If stationary, he can fire his guns with Skyfire and Interceptor, potentially giving 12 S6 AP4 rending shots and 2 S8 AP3 shots, all with Skyfire.

Well the Flyers I'm most likely to face are Dark Angels Flyers, Imperial Guard Flyers, Vanilla Space Marine Flyers, and Chaos Flyers. So essentially they're mostly Imperial Flyer's that I'll be facing.

As for the Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, I am looking into that after a mate of mine mentioned it yesterday. It sounds pretty good off the brief description.

4x missile launchers is not effective anti tank so paying more to make then sky fire is not a good plan.

This also goes for the AA gun on the knight and a defence line. If it takes you 2-3 turns to kill a flyer then you might as well just avoid it.

Some options
Xiphon
Fire Raptor (if you are not using DFtS)
Morris Contemptor
Command tanks
Mass snap firing TLAC

 IllumiNini wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
What army is he using? The best option is entirely dependent on what kind of fliers you are dealing with.

Well... That's not entirely true. The BEST option is to take something that doesn't normally have Skyfire and give it skyfire. A set of Command Tanks can give Skyfire to one unit a turn, and once per game can let a unit for Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill. There's also a relic in the new Cadia book that does the same, though it's only for an infantry squad with an attached character holding the relic, and you need to bring Belisarius Cawl to get access.

Another option is to take a Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought. If stationary, he can fire his guns with Skyfire and Interceptor, potentially giving 12 S6 AP4 rending shots and 2 S8 AP3 shots, all with Skyfire.

Well the Flyers I'm most likely to face are Dark Angels Flyers, Imperial Guard Flyers, Vanilla Space Marine Flyers, and Chaos Flyers. So essentially they're mostly Imperial Flyer's that I'll be facing.

As for the Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, I am looking into that after a mate of mine mentioned it yesterday. It sounds pretty good off the brief description.

Against Imperial flyers, you really don't need to worry that much. Most Space Marine flyers (including their various chapter brothers) have fairly minimal damage output. The Guard fliers can pump out some decent Large Blast shots, but they don't have any AP, so you can safely ignore it.

Chaos flyers are the only ones that are really threatening. Baleflamers are pretty deadly to Space Marines, seeing as they ignore all your Power Armor saves and wound on 2s, leaving you with some very, very dead Space Marines. The various FMCs are also pretty devastating, but are harder to deal with - Grav won't necessarily hurt them, since not all of their FMCs have an armor save, so you're best off with high volume of fire. However, against those FMCs, you can still often ignore their damage - Some decent psychic defense will protect against their firepower, since they lack any guns.

Scott-S6 wrote:4x missile launchers is not effective anti tank so paying more to make then sky fire is not a good plan.

This also goes for the AA gun on the knight and a defence line. If it takes you 2-3 turns to kill a flyer then you might as well just avoid it.

Some options
Xiphon
Fire Raptor (if you are not using DFtS)
Morris Contemptor
Command tanks
Mass snap firing TLAC

Yeah, I mainly went with the Missile Launchers because, at the moment, it's very easy for me to proxy other Heavy Weapons as Missile Launchers in order to field it on the TT. Fair call on the IK. As for the rest of what you suggested, Mass Snapfiring TLAC seems like another points sink, especially if I'm not taking them as part of my army already.

Waaaghpower wrote:Against Imperial flyers, you really don't need to worry that much. Most Space Marine flyers (including their various chapter brothers) have fairly minimal damage output. The Guard fliers can pump out some decent Large Blast shots, but they don't have any AP, so you can safely ignore it.

Chaos flyers are the only ones that are really threatening. Baleflamers are pretty deadly to Space Marines, seeing as they ignore all your Power Armor saves and wound on 2s, leaving you with some very, very dead Space Marines. The various FMCs are also pretty devastating, but are harder to deal with - Grav won't necessarily hurt them, since not all of their FMCs have an armor save, so you're best off with high volume of fire. However, against those FMCs, you can still often ignore their damage - Some decent psychic defense will protect against their firepower, since they lack any guns.

I'm worried more about their utility as opposed to their damage output. Let's say, for example, that a Flyer causes a Penetrating Hit on a Vindicator in a Linebreaker Squadron that is nowhere near a Techmarine, forcing it to Snapfire. Suddenly, one of the main bonuses of taking the 360+ Point Linebreaker Squadron is now not an option for at least the next turn. So it may have only scored the one Penetrating Hit, but it's utility in this scenario is arguably higher. This is not the best example, I know, but I hope it illustrates my point.

The Deredeo is the best anti-flyer for marines imo. It's a Contemptor dread with 4 twin-linked str 8 shots that reroll armor penetration. It also fires 3 str 6 ap 3 missiles at a second target. It's BS 5 with skyfire and interceptor when standing still.

I like space marine command tanks for this.

for 400 points you get a Land Raider with a 6++ and a grav cannon
A Rhino that drops a 7 inch orbital
and a host of special rules.

One is the ability to make any unit have sky-fire. You can cast it on yourself and have 2 TLLC and a Grav Cannon (which auto immobilizes on a 6) or my personal favorite is to take a unit of 3 predators and have 6 skyfire LC and 3 sky fire autos with monster and tank hunter

Waaaghpower wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
What army is he using? The best option is entirely dependent on what kind of fliers you are dealing with.

Well... That's not entirely true. The BEST option is to take something that doesn't normally have Skyfire and give it skyfire. A set of Command Tanks can give Skyfire to one unit a turn, and once per game can let a unit for Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill. There's also a relic in the new Cadia book that does the same, though it's only for an infantry squad with an attached character holding the relic, and you need to bring Belisarius Cawl to get access.

Another option is to take a Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought. If stationary, he can fire his guns with Skyfire and Interceptor, potentially giving 12 S6 AP4 rending shots and 2 S8 AP3 shots, all with Skyfire.

Well the Flyers I'm most likely to face are Dark Angels Flyers, Imperial Guard Flyers, Vanilla Space Marine Flyers, and Chaos Flyers. So essentially they're mostly Imperial Flyer's that I'll be facing.

As for the Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, I am looking into that after a mate of mine mentioned it yesterday. It sounds pretty good off the brief description.

Against Imperial flyers, you really don't need to worry that much. Most Space Marine flyers (including their various chapter brothers) have fairly minimal damage output. The Guard fliers can pump out some decent Large Blast shots, but they don't have any AP, so you can safely ignore it.

Chaos flyers are the only ones that are really threatening. Baleflamers are pretty deadly to Space Marines, seeing as they ignore all your Power Armor saves and wound on 2s, leaving you with some very, very dead Space Marines. The various FMCs are also pretty devastating, but are harder to deal with - Grav won't necessarily hurt them, since not all of their FMCs have an armor save, so you're best off with high volume of fire. However, against those FMCs, you can still often ignore their damage - Some decent psychic defense will protect against their firepower, since they lack any guns.

I think you're sorely underestimating the threat imperial flyers pose, especially the FW ones. You don't think that Vendettas, Fireraptors, and Vultures put out serious firepower?

Just wait until that Vulture dances behind your vehicles and wrecks then one by one with 20 TL punisher cannon shots.

I regularly use Vendettas, and have almost never been disappointed by the damage they do. 3 TL lascannons is not something to be underestimated.

I think the Contemptor-Mortis dreadnought might be the best choice IMO because of the utility and long range.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
What army is he using? The best option is entirely dependent on what kind of fliers you are dealing with.

Well... That's not entirely true. The BEST option is to take something that doesn't normally have Skyfire and give it skyfire. A set of Command Tanks can give Skyfire to one unit a turn, and once per game can let a unit for Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill. There's also a relic in the new Cadia book that does the same, though it's only for an infantry squad with an attached character holding the relic, and you need to bring Belisarius Cawl to get access.

Another option is to take a Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought. If stationary, he can fire his guns with Skyfire and Interceptor, potentially giving 12 S6 AP4 rending shots and 2 S8 AP3 shots, all with Skyfire.

Well the Flyers I'm most likely to face are Dark Angels Flyers, Imperial Guard Flyers, Vanilla Space Marine Flyers, and Chaos Flyers. So essentially they're mostly Imperial Flyer's that I'll be facing.

As for the Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, I am looking into that after a mate of mine mentioned it yesterday. It sounds pretty good off the brief description.

Against Imperial flyers, you really don't need to worry that much. Most Space Marine flyers (including their various chapter brothers) have fairly minimal damage output. The Guard fliers can pump out some decent Large Blast shots, but they don't have any AP, so you can safely ignore it.

Chaos flyers are the only ones that are really threatening. Baleflamers are pretty deadly to Space Marines, seeing as they ignore all your Power Armor saves and wound on 2s, leaving you with some very, very dead Space Marines. The various FMCs are also pretty devastating, but are harder to deal with - Grav won't necessarily hurt them, since not all of their FMCs have an armor save, so you're best off with high volume of fire. However, against those FMCs, you can still often ignore their damage - Some decent psychic defense will protect against their firepower, since they lack any guns.

I think you're sorely underestimating the threat imperial flyers pose, especially the FW ones. You don't think that Vendettas, Fireraptors, and Vultures put out serious firepower?

Just wait until that Vulture dances behind your vehicles and wrecks then one by one with 20 TL punisher cannon shots.

I regularly use Vendettas, and have almost never been disappointed by the damage they do. 3 TL lascannons is not something to be underestimated.

I think the Contemptor-Mortis dreadnought might be the best choice IMO because of the utility and long range.

I'm not familiar with the FW fliers, but no, I'm not that worried about the firepower from Vendettas. They're certainly not bad, but they're not the scariest thing ever.

Something worth pointing out is that the firepower on any given flier is not equivalent to that firepower on a ground target. Because of how it is mounted, its firepower is A, not going to be useable until turn 2 at the earliest and B, the available firing arcs are going to be limited and not always helpful for the person controlling the flier. While games aren't decided on the first turn, it's usually where players are going to make some of their most important moves, setting up infantry or just lobbying shots downrange - I, for one, do not want to rely on big, expensive chunks of my army that aren't even going to be around until turn 2 or 3.

3 Lascannons, by the way, isn't all to threatening - At least not at my LGS. Maybe your meta is weird, but averaging 2.25 hits means you're getting fairly little damage - You're not going to kill a 3HP vehicle unless you get a very lucky penetrating hit, you're only going to put one wound or so on anything with a decent Invuln, a cover save, or FNP and good Toughness.

I have to vouch for the fire raptor, when I proxies it to try out the rules, man it devastated my opponent. I don't remember the game too well but it's on my to buy list when I have funds

Don't dreadnought missile launchers come with flak missiles? A squad with ML and tl-AC seems like a fairly cheap way to get some generalist units that can aim up if needed.

I'll second the Deredeo. I've just recently added one to my Deathwing/Ravenwing list and it does some serious work. I haven't actually had the occasion to shoot it at any flyers yet, but it's a powerhouse when it comes to killing mid-armor value vehicles. The S6 missiles always hit side armor so they're not terrible at helping finish off a vehicle, or you can fire the independently at a separate target to pick off some marines if need be.

Why not just take an Aegis Defense Line with Quad Autocannon

 Rolsheen wrote:
Why not just take an Aegis Defense Line with Quad Autocannon

Because the quad-gun really, really sucks.
The Aegis Line is nice, but even if you get all 4 hits, 4 S7 hits is not going to do much against most fliers - Especially Imperial fliers. If you're hitting AV12, then you are only getting 1.3 Hull Points, with a .65 chance of a Penetrating hit and a .65 chance of a Glancing hit. This is assuming that they don't jink.

It's worse than that, though - If you fire it Interceptor you're fine, but if you want to fire the Quad-gun during your turn, then you need to dedicate a whole squad to firing it, and that squad is going to have to waste their other guns - You can't exactly add their firepower unless they're using Flakk Missiles or something.

Back in 6th, it was better - If there was no good air target, then you just had four Twin-linked Autocannon shots that could still target ground units equally well, making it a decent choice for inclusion in Heavy Weapons squads even if you didn't expect fliers. (I made a habit of taking one with a bunch of Sister of Battle Retributors, so I could fire it with Rending shots).

If they jink its job done for a turn, though.

If the flier comes on turn 2, you shoot it, it jinks, it can do nothing till the next turn, so problem solved temporarily.

 Crazyterran wrote:
If they jink its job done for a turn, though.

If the flier comes on turn 2, you shoot it, it jinks, it can do nothing till the next turn, so problem solved temporarily.

Unless the flier you are dealing with is a Daemon Prince who rolled a bunch of Summoning powers.

An ADL with a Quadgun manned by a Vindicare Assassin is always a good option. It will ignore Jink and almost never miss.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
An ADL with a Quadgun manned by a Vindicare Assassin is always a good option. It will ignore Jink and almost never miss.

That costs 250 points. It doesn't matter if they ever Jink, because it's still only 4 S7 hits. It is going to take 3 turns to kill a single Stormraven with this loadout, assuming you never get shot at or killed - So that Stormraven isn't dead until turn 4.

That's not a cost effective option.

Fortress of Redemption Twin-Linked Icarus Lascannon.

Plus the fortress itself is fething amazing and brings other toys to the table!

Well, Space Marines do have their own dedicated anti flyer flyer, so that might be worth looking into.

Now, depending on your gaming group, and if they use Death From the Skies, but storm talons (for cheapness), or a storm raven (that can fire more weapons and missiles) can still be effective.