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So I got a 1500pt. tournament coming up with all sorts of nasty things coming my way. I'm going to be running a light amount of guard with 1195pts worth of Deathwatch. During a test game the rerolls were absolutely destroying a CSM player I was playing at the moment, but the tournament relies solely on capturing objectives. So if I run a CAD all my troops and drop pods will be obj secure which will make any of my opponents have to waste time on taking out the drop pods.

List for BSSF: With 3 Mission Tactic changes, Watch Captain Artemis, and a Corvus Blackstar. All but the snipers are in drop pods
-3 Aquila Kill Teams- rerolls of 1 on armor pens and wound rolls (2 of the kill teams consist of 2 frag cannons each and termi meltas. Last one has all bolters with a termi with a power-sword)
-A unit of stalker boltguns
All these are in a Watch Company that reroll all wound rolls on any unit with an IC, warlord, or psyker which is insane

List for CAD: 2 Mission Tactic changes, Watch Captain Artemis, and a Corvus Blackstar.
3 Drop pods: In 2 are 2 frag cannons each and a mix of bolt guns and DW shotguns and the third will have 3 combi-meltas
2 Suicide termis with powerfist and melta
5 Bikers w/ power sowrds in the corvus

So what's really worth it, because with special issue ammo I can use the poison 2+ to just make termis and bikers even with their jinks put out a gak ton of wounds rolls and I still get Mission Tactics. What do you guys think?

really depends upon the missions. Lots of ObSec helps when:
- your opponent has none
- if the game doesn't reach turn 5
- majority of missions will be won or lost solely by objectives (no kill points, relic, table quarters, etc.)
- your ObSec units have mobility and toughness

 axisofentropy wrote:
really depends upon the missions. Lots of ObSec helps when:
- your opponent has none
- if the game doesn't reach turn 5
- majority of missions will be won or lost solely by objectives (no kill points, relic, table quarters, etc.)
- your ObSec units have mobility and toughness

There is no kill points or any of that involved it will come down to objs. but those bring most of my killing power for the game without rerolls do you think those can compete with white scars, necrons, tau, and all that fun jazz. My AD is Imperial Guard armoured shield Leman Russ Eradicator w/ commissar and infantry squad just to hold back objs and create a bubble wrap around the Leman for the 4+ cover with camo.

stewe128 wrote:
do you think those can compete with white scars, necrons, tau, and all that fun jazz.

maybe. but in 2017 you got the Gathering Storm books which are much more powerful.

No but the greater freedom in the FOC and Obj Sec definitely do.
Being able to field units of single ultra threatening models will divide fire like nobody's business.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
No but the greater freedom in the FOC and Obj Sec definitely do.
Being able to field units of single ultra threatening models will divide fire like nobody's business.

So the two suicide termis aren't enough?

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
No but the greater freedom in the FOC and Obj Sec definitely do.
Being able to field units of single ultra threatening models will divide fire like nobody's business.

So the two suicide termis aren't enough?

Up to you.
Personally I find two single model Vanguard Vet squads packing S10 hammers to be far more threatening than two Terminators.
Termies might get lucky and off three or four vehicles between them if they're well placed.
Vanguard Vets are mobile, they can potentially attack and destroy a vehicle per turn each unless they're trimmed.

You could just ditch the guard and take an inquisition attachment. Coteaz, henchmen, metal boxes, all with obsec so giving rhinos or razorback obsec also. This would also get you warp charges of which you currently have none.

You can't take Drop Pods for the formations (Aquila and such) as per the FAQ, might help make the decision easier.

 Buzzdady wrote:
You can't take Drop Pods for the formations (Aquila and such) as per the FAQ, might help make the decision easier.

Seriously?

stewe128 wrote:

 Buzzdady wrote:
You can't take Drop Pods for the formations (Aquila and such) as per the FAQ, might help make the decision easier.

Seriously?

Yes, GW severely gutted the Deathwatch in the last FAQ.

stewe128 wrote:

 Buzzdady wrote:
You can't take Drop Pods for the formations (Aquila and such) as per the FAQ, might help make the decision easier.

Seriously?

Well the FAQ said you can't take a dedicated transport that the unit won't fit in. That either means:
1. The Kill teams can never buy them. Doesn't make sense as the rules mention they can't exceed 10 dudes not including dedicated transports.
2. In larger groups you aren't allowed Razorbacks and end up being stuck with Drop Pods or the gunship.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
No but the greater freedom in the FOC and Obj Sec definitely do.
Being able to field units of single ultra threatening models will divide fire like nobody's business.

So the two suicide termis aren't enough?

Up to you.
Personally I find two single model Vanguard Vet squads packing S10 hammers to be far more threatening than two Terminators.
Termies might get lucky and off three or four vehicles between them if they're well placed.
Vanguard Vets are mobile, they can potentially attack and destroy a vehicle per turn each unless they're trimmed.

How can they get where they need to be without being just shot to gak?

Sounds like they don't. Welcome to the Imperium, son.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:

 Buzzdady wrote:
You can't take Drop Pods for the formations (Aquila and such) as per the FAQ, might help make the decision easier.

Seriously?

Well the FAQ said you can't take a dedicated transport that the unit won't fit in. That either means:
1. The Kill teams can never buy them. Doesn't make sense as the rules mention they can't exceed 10 dudes not including dedicated transports.
2. In larger groups you aren't allowed Razorbacks and end up being stuck with Drop Pods or the gunship.

It is unfortunately explicit in this regard:



You can try and take the stance that the FAQ only says that "not ALL combinations may take a transport", so SOME may, but that's kind of a stretch. This is something you need to confirm with the TO before you finalize your list.

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
No but the greater freedom in the FOC and Obj Sec definitely do.
Being able to field units of single ultra threatening models will divide fire like nobody's business.

So the two suicide termis aren't enough?

Up to you.
Personally I find two single model Vanguard Vet squads packing S10 hammers to be far more threatening than two Terminators.
Termies might get lucky and off three or four vehicles between them if they're well placed.
Vanguard Vets are mobile, they can potentially attack and destroy a vehicle per turn each unless they're trimmed.

How can they get where they need to be without being just shot to gak?

CAD drop pods or blackstars.

Alternatively take the decurion and give everyone the deep strike USR.

So the question is should I take one vanguard vet with a hammer and put it in the blackstar and keep the bikers on the ground?

Well I played last night and got tabled. Without the reroll to wounds it's absolutely brutal and with such a small army every roll counts.

I've been looking for player reviews of Watch Companies, as the Decapitation Doctrine has got to be one of the most powerful formation rules since the Gladius getting free transports. It sure sounds like your tournament would be better won with a bunch of Objsec, in fact I would bet on it. I'm personally a bigger fan of the Vanguard as they are more mobile, however dropping a Termie with lots of upgrades in the backfield could be fun!

sizzlebutt666 wrote:
I've been looking for player reviews of Watch Companies, as the Decapitation Doctrine has got to be one of the most powerful formation rules since the Gladius getting free transports. It sure sounds like your tournament would be better won with a bunch of Objsec, in fact I would bet on it. I'm personally a bigger fan of the Vanguard as they are more mobile, however dropping a Termie with lots of upgrades in the backfield could be fun!

I usually run the Watch Company and believe me it is insane. Reroll all wounds roll for any psyker, IC, and warlord and the unit as well! It's worth it and last night when I played, those rerolls are needed especially against those high T warlords and daemons. Deathwatch are so thin on numbers that they practically need to wound or they're doomed. Also it'll be hard to secure objectives when units are wiped out.

Libby + Dominus Aegis + Drop Podded Vets. Grab an objective in the middle and re-enforce the Libby with more Vets.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Libby + Dominus Aegis + Drop Podded Vets. Grab an objective in the middle and re-enforce the Libby with more Vets.

Does deep strike counter the movement?

stewe128 wrote:
Well I played last night and got tabled. Without the reroll to wounds it's absolutely brutal and with such a small army every roll counts.

I would still suggest using the Imperial Agents Codex.

You could Allied Attachment to get Artemis and one of the Vets from there if you really want him.
As an IA CAD you could take a cheap 25 pt Inquisitor or you could take like Coteaz or someone else if you wanted.

Then you could use GK terminators you get them for 33/model instead of 40/model you get psykers which you don't currently have and these terminators will have psyk-out grenades and force weapons and immolator, psilencer, psycannon, with Aegis and a nemesis staff you get adamantium will so you Deny the Witch on a 4+ iirc. For the DW terminators you aren't taking any of the expensive stuff specific to them they can use like Assault Cannons or Cyclone Missiles so they are just overcosted per model, for the 10 points you are taking aux meltas you could just be taking Daemon Hammers S10 ap2 with Force or 2x falchions.

You can still take the other 2 groups of Deathwatch Veterans as troops, put them in Rhinos so the frag cannons can use the firepoints, you don't have to worry about where they drop into and being stuck in a bad situation and wasting the points. I put the other with 5x Stalker bolters, they can fire 30" and 36" with the kraken rounds if range is an issue on the first turn, the fact that they can sit back and throw out damage where you need it is important AND they get to keep Aquila Doctrine.

There is no real replacement in IA for the bikers, but you can take 2 Dreadknights with a personal teleporter and a heavy incinerator that has torrent. The ability to shunt and start the game deployed without having any need to even do the reserve roll I would consider comparable to the Blackstar, the knights have 2x powerfists still and that should be comparable to what the bikes were doing before, but now you have a split unit instead of one and you gain 2 additional warp charges.

Alternatively you could still take the bikes and the Corvus in the allied attachment if you don't have the Dreadknight models but I think they serve essentially the same function and do it better. I kinda threw something together below, you can of course disregard it or play around with the loadouts but I think it aligns with what you are trying to do. What models you have to adjust your army would be good to know as well.


Allied Detachment

Watch Captain Artemis (1) - 145pts
1 Watch Captain Artemis

Veterans (5) - 160pts
1 Watch Sergeant: Boltgun,Close combat weapon
2 Veteran: Deathwatch frag cannon,Close combat weapon
2 Veteran: Boltgun,Close combat weapon

Rhino (1) - 35pts Dedicated Transport
1 Rhino: Storm bolter

Veterans (5) - 160pts
1 Watch Sergeant: Boltgun,Close combat weapon
2 Veteran: Deathwatch frag cannon,Close combat weapon
2 Veteran: Boltgun,Close combat weapon

Rhino (1) - 40pts Dedicated Transport
1 Rhino: Storm bolter,Dozer blade

Combined Arms Detachment

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (1) - 38pts
1 Inquisitor: Bolt pistol,Chainsword,Power armour,Ulumeathi plasma syphon

Terminator Squad (5) - 205pts
1 Terminator Justicar: Nemesis warding stave,Storm bolter,Melta bombs
1 Grey Knight Terminator: Nemesis force sword,Psycannon
1 Grey Knight Terminator: Nemesis force halberd,Storm bolter
2 Grey Knight Terminator: Two Nemesis falchions,Storm bolter

Terminator Squad (5) - 202pts
1 Terminator Justicar: Nemesis warding stave,Storm bolter
1 Grey Knight Terminator: Nemesis force sword,Psycannon
3 Grey Knight Terminator: Two Nemesis falchions,Storm bolter

Nemesis Dreadknight (1) - 190pts
1 Nemesis Dreadknight: Power fist and Nemesis greatsword,Heavy incinerator,Personal teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight (1) - 190pts
1 Nemesis Dreadknight: Power fist and Nemesis greatsword,Heavy incinerator,Personal teleporter

Deathwatch Kill Team

Veterans (5) - 135pts
1 Watch Sergeant: Stalker pattern boltgun,Close combat weapon
4 Veteran: Stalker pattern boltgun,Close combat weapon

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Libby + Dominus Aegis + Drop Podded Vets. Grab an objective in the middle and re-enforce the Libby with more Vets.

Does deep strike counter the movement?

Yes it does, that's why you put the Pod between your Deathwatch and the enemy.

So the GK's would be a great idea if I had the money and models :( but here's a list so far of what I've gathered and only one game with objective based things this is what I came up with.

BSSF

Warlord: Watch Captain w/ lightning claw and boltgun-110

Librarian Termi w/ Auspex and ML2- 120

Inquisitor Greyfax- 150

Watch Company:

Aquila- 5 Stalker pattern boltguns and termi w/ cyclone 200

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons, 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Kill Team- 3 Boltguns, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 shotgun 160 in drop pod

So 1270 in total from here, but I don't know if I should take the Corvus, LR, or Armoured Shield w/ Leman Russ Eradicator. Corvus or LR I'd stick Greyfax in there to deny the witch on 4+ counters any invisibility gak on HVT's but I don't really know or 2 Dreads

stewe128 wrote:
So the GK's would be a great idea if I had the money and models :( but here's a list so far of what I've gathered and only one game with objective based things this is what I came up with.

BSSF

Warlord: Watch Captain w/ lightning claw and boltgun-110

Librarian Termi w/ Auspex and ML2- 120

Inquisitor Greyfax- 150

Watch Company:

Aquila- 5 Stalker pattern boltguns and termi w/ cyclone 200

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons, 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Kill Team- 3 Boltguns, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 shotgun 160 in drop pod

So 1270 in total from here, but I don't know if I should take the Corvus, LR, or Armoured Shield w/ Leman Russ Eradicator. Corvus or LR I'd stick Greyfax in there to deny the witch on 4+ counters any invisibility gak on HVT's but I don't really know or 2 Dreads

Does Greyfax have a special rule that lets her deny higher on blessings? As far as I know Deny the Witch modifiers are only activated when the ability in question targets your stuff, not their own.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
So the GK's would be a great idea if I had the money and models :( but here's a list so far of what I've gathered and only one game with objective based things this is what I came up with.

BSSF

Warlord: Watch Captain w/ lightning claw and boltgun-110

Librarian Termi w/ Auspex and ML2- 120

Inquisitor Greyfax- 150

Watch Company:

Aquila- 5 Stalker pattern boltguns and termi w/ cyclone 200

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons, 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Aquila- 2 Frag Cannons 1 melta, 1 stormshield, 1 shotgun in drop pod 265

Kill Team- 3 Boltguns, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 shotgun 160 in drop pod

So 1270 in total from here, but I don't know if I should take the Corvus, LR, or Armoured Shield w/ Leman Russ Eradicator. Corvus or LR I'd stick Greyfax in there to deny the witch on 4+ counters any invisibility gak on HVT's but I don't really know or 2 Dreads

Does Greyfax have a special rule that lets her deny higher on blessings? As far as I know Deny the Witch modifiers are only activated when the ability in question targets your stuff, not their own.

Oh yeah so just the basic 6 + since she's a psyker. So here's a question though if I get rid of Grey and make an SCt with the lib so they get stubborn and adamantium will which would be better?

Honestly you need more models on the table. Part of the reason Veterans are expensive is because of the special ammo so you are blowing points by taking a unit that has those benefits and then throwing them away to kit them out with other things. It would be like taking land raiders and then not putting anyone in them, you may as well have taken Leman Russ's at that point, their ability to transport is part of their cost as a model.

A 5 man squad of normal spacemarine terminators can deepstrike with 4 chainfists, 1 cyclone missile launcher and 1 assault cannon is only 245 points and they all have a 2+ save.

I think you need to assess what your strategy actually is and don't waste points or use units created for that task and need to figure out what exactly your strategy is

Only 245 points?

Ceann wrote:
Honestly you need more models on the table. Part of the reason Veterans are expensive is because of the special ammo so you are blowing points by taking a unit that has those benefits and then throwing them away to kit them out with other things. It would be like taking land raiders and then not putting anyone in them, you may as well have taken Leman Russ's at that point, their ability to transport is part of their cost as a model.

A 5 man squad of normal spacemarine terminators can deepstrike with 4 chainfists, 1 cyclone missile launcher and 1 assault cannon is only 245 points and they all have a 2+ save.

I think you need to assess what your strategy actually is and don't waste points or use units created for that task and need to figure out what exactly your strategy is

This.
I think I've been giving advice that doesn't really help and probably won't until you decide what your army does.

Ceann wrote:
Honestly you need more models on the table. Part of the reason Veterans are expensive is because of the special ammo so you are blowing points by taking a unit that has those benefits and then throwing them away to kit them out with other things. It would be like taking land raiders and then not putting anyone in them, you may as well have taken Leman Russ's at that point, their ability to transport is part of their cost as a model.

A 5 man squad of normal spacemarine terminators can deepstrike with 4 chainfists, 1 cyclone missile launcher and 1 assault cannon is only 245 points and they all have a 2+ save.

I think you need to assess what your strategy actually is and don't waste points or use units created for that task and need to figure out what exactly your strategy is

So with what I got now I'll be reworking it in a min., but the frag cannon drop pods will go in turn 1 and take out the biggest threat possible on the board most likely the warlord. Terminator lib will be joining one of the units for invisibility to make it real tough to take them out and so they can last. It also has an auspex removing 1 from cover for any unit so jinking will be 5+. The sniper crew will be picking off anyone that would flank the frags or due to bad rolls finish off the warlord. I don't know where I should put Greyfax and the Watch Captain will join the other drop pod that's not with the lib. Lastly the other kill team will just be the bare bones 110 with a pod to get rid of a unit of troops preferably with an IC or psyker for the rerolls. If I get rid of Greyfax I could run an LR with a kill team loaded with heavy thunderhammers to rush whatever kind of knight, daemon prince, and so on or I could just add the IG formation. Those are my tactics so far, but I don't know. To be honest I don't have a clue.