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This is mainly a list in progress that needs some feedback please

___Command Detachment___
3 Daemon Princes with wings and 2 sets of talons- Tetrad style, one of each Chaos god (4th DP in detachment below)
Magnus

___Battalion Detachment___
Belakor
4th Daemon Prince with wings and 2 sets of talons
5 Blues & 5 Brims
5 Blues & 5 Brims
5 Blues & 5 Brims
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer
----------------------------------------------total: 1695pts

So that leaves 305pts for Reinforcements and I have plenty of characters to summon what I want.
Or do you think I should just commit and fill in the units I need?

What kind of Princes should I take?
Daemon ones have 10W and will come with special god-specific abilities and disciplines
CSM only have 8W (and can thus hide behind other units) and can be targeted by Warptime that both Belakor and Magnus know. I can also make the Tz DP and Heldrake <Thousand Sons> to benefit while near Magnus

Thoughts?

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I like the Marine Princes better, for the exact two reasons you stated: no sniping, and Warptime.

However, the Khorne Daemon Prince ability is really good, especially with an Axe: 3's rerolling 1's with -3 3d and 5 attacks! (And Str 9 makes him much better against Knights and other Supers)

If you took a Tzerald on a Disc/Chariot, you'd get a Str bonus for Magnus, the Drake, and one Prince if in range. That might be worthwhile.

if you play so many princes+Magnus for me you can try and choose also demons Dp, heretic astartes princes have the advantage to be untargettables but with 4 DP on the table you need lot of heavy weapons to take them all down, not counting Magnus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/19/tzeentch-flying-circus-in-newhammer/

what about this. seems prettt solid and hard hitter

I am also thinking about using Flamers for some Dakka.

I really don't like the idea of mixing the Princes, but I really think with so few targets, having more wounds may be a good idea. If they are all CSM DPs, that would force my opponent to put all fire power onto Magnus or the Heldrake. It might be beneficial to present more valid targets to tempt them not to focus fire Magnus down.

Nurgle and Khorne have good abilities as <Daemons> and Nurgle would have access to the Nurgle discipline
The Tz DP is probably best as <Thousand Sons> and hang around Magnus
The Slaanesh DP could go either way (which is oddly appropriate for Slaanesh).

I may have to eventually put a focus onto this army (i.e. not the Tetrad) in which case it would be a mix of Tz and Nurlge only Daemons lead by Magnus and Belakor. I would probably then only do 3 DPs + Heldrake and use the extra points for Flamers and/or Screamers, or maybe Flesh Hounds.

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My thought is that unless you really really like the Heretic Powers, go with the CD Princes for the extra wounds.

I'm intrigued by this army list. You need your big boppers on the table, as you can't reliably summon them.

Besides, you're likely not going to summon with your big boppers as you're likely moving them forward. (unless you're in combat in the next round to summon reinforcements!).

And brimmies/blues are cheap enough to spam at the backline to be the summon factory.

Question: why 5x brimmies and 5x blues? You can shave off a lil' bit by going 9x brimmies and 1 blue horror.

I only own 20 Brimstone horrors, yet I also own 10 Blues and 6 Pinks. The Pinks are likely never going to see the table top again .
I'll likely take this:
4 Blues + 6 Brims
3 Blues + 7 Brims
3 Blues + 7 Brims

That shaves a few points over the 5+5 and more realistically uses the models I own.
Considering how unlikely it is to use up all Reinforcement points exactly, having a few Blues (i.e. more than 1 per unit) gives me a way to use up the last few Reinforcement points.
I can remove a few Brims first so I have models to split the Blues.

How does this list look:

I'm kinda not sure about the Tsons DP. He only gets that re-roll 1 for saving throws near Magnus, but as a Daemon he would just get a straight 4++. That seems like a wash
Is being able to hide him going to make much difference?

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Cool... that's understandable! I'm looking to buy 2 more boxes of brimmies and the Changeling.

As for CSM DP. I guess I'd have to playtest a mix of CSM DP with some big boppers. You may not see a need to take advantage of that "can't target characters unless it's the closet" thing.

I really like that list, especially the dual Nurgle DP... They're the type that can really cause opponents some fits, along with Maggie.

My only quibble is maybe swapping out the Screamers for Units of Flamers. Flamers just look too good not to take in a list like this to mitigate swarm/horde lists.

 whembly wrote:
My thought is that unless you really really like the Heretic Powers, go with the CD Princes for the extra wounds.

I'm intrigued by this army list. You need your big boppers on the table, as you can't reliably summon them.

Besides, you're likely not going to summon with your big boppers as you're likely moving them forward. (unless you're in combat in the next round to summon reinforcements!).

And brimmies/blues are cheap enough to spam at the backline to be the summon factory.

Question: why 5x brimmies and 5x blues? You can shave off a lil' bit by going 9x brimmies and 1 blue horror.

Feel if you take 2 drakes and magnus then making the other 5 DPs CSM they can hide pretty well behind t7 with regen wounds which will last longer vs the inevitable assault cannon spam. Also means you can hide behind brims vs turn 1 alpha when you have 15+ drops.

Not a bad idea swapping the Screamers for Flamers

The only advantage of CSM DPs is not being snipeable, but you have so many and they will all outpace your horrors (especially with wings). Yes you get warpspeed, and warpspeed is awesome so you should have access to it BUT(!) you can only cast warpspeed once per turn in matched play (same for all non-smite spells). Basically just keep 1 or 2 CSM DPs (bel'akor included in overall count), though you'll probably want to prioritize warpspeed on Bel'akor. The rest should just go with Daemons and pickup the free daemon buffs (4++ save if you're tzeentch!).

the only advantage.... that is HUGE advantage for a MC, now the firepower is high and damage too, hide behind something and cant be sniped is insurance you survive as long as you need to engage something.
Flamers are def a better screen for DP's, they shoot and provide a great fire support and in some cases a nearly unchargeble unit 6d6 autohit at -1 ap can wreak some faces.

I would agree to use flamers instead of screamers as well. I look forward to playing a similar list using Tzeentch DP's mainly because I see alot of value in the Changling. If your not going first he can help protect any DP's (or Magnus) against turn 1 shooting since you mostly likely won't be able to hide them all behind terrain. I just wish my other army wasn't nids who I want to play slightly more lol.

Guys... what do you think of this list I whipped up with the models I have on hand.

I still don't understand how people think they are screening their DPs in this thread after turn 1. Ya its a good defense for turn 1 but afterwards you've got 12" move units hiding behind 6" move units (+the d6 advance they each get I suppose). If you're up against armies with shooting they can wait 2 turns to sweat you out no?

flamers move 12" not 6" so they are a good cover for flying princes, and they shoot tons so i prefer them over screamers.

One argument that could be made for Screamers is that because they're relying on melee attacks, you get more benefit from a nearby herald. They have more attacks, and also bring a bit AP and 2 damage to the party, which could prove very valuable fighting against primaris/monsters/tanks.

On the flip side, this sort of a list already has tonnes of Maelific Talons so D2 probably isn't as much of a requirement and extra hits from the flamers might actually be a more valuable option.

Engio wrote:
I still don't understand how people think they are screening their DPs in this thread after turn 1. Ya its a good defense for turn 1 but afterwards you've got 12" move units hiding behind 6" move units (+the d6 advance they each get I suppose). If you're up against armies with shooting they can wait 2 turns to sweat you out no?

In a list like this, you can rush forward with Magnus and the Heldrake up front. That gives you at least 2 turns of the DPs not being the closest targets. The issue with this is that it forces your opponent to target Magnus and/or the Heldrake. Granted those are the harder to kill targets, but if your opponent manages to kill them early it's an uphill battle from there.

But for my list I think 2 <Daemon> Nurgle DPs will be good. 10W + Daemonic resilience should be enough to keep them kicking for a while.
Belakor and the Tsons DP can hide easily enough.

Something I thought of recently is Heroic Intervention means that opponents cannot isolate 1 DP in combat. If you charge one, others can jump into the combat that turn.
What are your opinions on Warp Bolters? I think they are cheap enough to put on every DP for that extra damage.

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 Galef wrote:

Engio wrote:
I still don't understand how people think they are screening their DPs in this thread after turn 1. Ya its a good defense for turn 1 but afterwards you've got 12" move units hiding behind 6" move units (+the d6 advance they each get I suppose). If you're up against armies with shooting they can wait 2 turns to sweat you out no?

In a list like this, you can rush forward with Magnus and the Heldrake up front. That gives you at least 2 turns of the DPs not being the closest targets. The issue with this is that it forces your opponent to target Magnus and/or the Heldrake. Granted those are the harder to kill targets, but if your opponent manages to kill them early it's an uphill battle from there.

Yup... that's the tactic there. Move your big boppers in your opponent's face forcing them to deal with it for a turn or two, allowing the rest of your army to move up to start crumping on your term.

But for my list I think 2 <Daemon> Nurgle DPs will be good. 10W + Daemonic resilience should be enough to keep them kicking for a while.
Belakor and the Tsons DP can hide easily enough.

I think nurgle DPs are bees knees right now. One thing I'm not certain of... is if Belakor is worth his points. Playtesting will tell ya.

Something I thought of recently is Heroic Intervention means that opponents cannot isolate 1 DP in combat. If you charge one, others can jump into the combat that turn.

I'm not sure I follow... are you saying that the DP #2 and DP #3 in the same combat as #1... that the opponents, at the very least, must swing at the DPs that are at base-to-base contact?

What are your opinions on Warp Bolters? I think they are cheap enough to put on every DP for that extra damage.

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In a list that you don't have much shooing, that also does D2... I find them possibly worth it.

 whembly wrote:

I'm not sure I follow... are you saying that the DP #2 and DP #3 in the same combat as #1... that the opponents, at the very least, must swing at the DPs that are at base-to-base contact?

No, what I am saying is that if I have DP#1 & 2 fairly close to each other and not yet in combat, the enemy cannot reliably engage just 1 and avoid being hit by the other.
If they assault DP1, DP2 can perform a Heroic intervention to join the fray. That may be too big a risk for some units to attempt.

Agreed on the Warp Bolters, I'll put them on my Nurgle Princes at least.

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Asura Varuna wrote:
One argument that could be made for Screamers is that because they're relying on melee attacks, you get more benefit from a nearby herald. They have more attacks, and also bring a bit AP and 2 damage to the party, which could prove very valuable fighting against primaris/monsters/tanks.

On the flip side, this sort of a list already has tonnes of Maelific Talons so D2 probably isn't as much of a requirement and extra hits from the flamers might actually be a more valuable option.

remember a thing 6-9 flamers could be a nearly unchargeable unit , depend where charging unit start if within 8" or not, btw risk 9d6 auto hits at -1 ap isn't a great deal, average 4 ternies gone under that overwatch.

I don't get how having a good overwatch can make a unit "unchargeable". That implies that you can wipe whole units with it.
Remember that causalities are no longer pulled from the closest models

And units can choose to start their charge either outside of 8", or even out of LoS. In both cases, the Flamers get no overwatch. Or if your unit of Flamers is big, some of the models might be outside Pistol range
I'm not saying Flamers are not a good choice, they are pretty good actually, but I would hardly call them "unchargable".

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 blackmage wrote:

remember a thing 6-9 flamers could be a nearly unchargeable unit , depend where charging unit start if within 8" or not, btw risk 9d6 auto hits at -1 ap isn't a great deal, average 4 ternies gone under that overwatch.

Yeah I'd forgotten they can use fly and just walk out combat to get overwatch in the following turn. I'm kinda miffed at having like 13 Screamers that just aren't likely to see much play this edition unless the codex shakes things up. Will probably have to invest more heavily in flamers I think.

 Galef wrote:
I don't get how having a good overwatch can make a unit "unchargeable". That implies that you can wipe whole units with it.
Remember that causalities are no longer pulled from the closest models

And units can choose to start their charge either outside of 8", or even out of LoS. In both cases, the Flamers get no overwatch. Or if your unit of Flamers is big, some of the models might be outside Pistol range
I'm not saying Flamers are not a good choice, they are pretty good actually, but I would hardly call them "unchargable".

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oh well.... 6 flamers deals 6d6 autohits, average 18 vs T4 that mean 9 wounds, means 4 power armor dead, for me is a good deal, if something "lighter" charge like for example IG that means 10 dead, i think to be just OVERWATCH for me is ok.i dont expect to wipe out a unit, but consider any wound you take get into total for battle shock well.... i m 100% ok with flamers.

So what is the best way to do 12 Flamers? 2x 6 or 3x 4?
Units of 6 have a better Overwatch, but if 3+ die, they start to really risk failing Morale
Units of 4 mean that the enemy has to actually kill more instead of letting Morale do it for them. Having more unti also means you can spread across the board better.

I'd also need 3 Elites to take a Vanguard detachment for the extra CP. I could fit everything in a Battalian, but the more CPs the better.

If you're planning on using them to buffer / prevent 1st turn assault of your units... throw 'em in one big squad.

But, I do see some value in MSU'ing flamers as, in my mind, they're great fast distraction units that does just enough damage to irritate your opponent.

 Galef wrote:
So what is the best way to do 12 Flamers? 2x 6 or 3x 4?
Units of 6 have a better Overwatch, but if 3+ die, they start to really risk failing Morale
Units of 4 mean that the enemy has to actually kill more instead of letting Morale do it for them. Having more unti also means you can spread across the board better.

I'd also need 3 Elites to take a Vanguard detachment for the extra CP. I could fit everything in a Battalian, but the more CPs the better.

as elite i tried exalted flamers, solid good firepowerm you can hide easily behind something, i use them mostly in support of brimstone, if something get too close it face 6 exalted 9d6+6d6 auto hits works fine for me.

Do you guys thing I should just say "to heck with summoning" and use those Reinforcement points for the Changeling instead?

That would make the list look like this:

i guess best configuration for horrors is brims+blue, pink cost too much, imho
for example i found works nice 5 blue+10/15 brims, quite cheap and effective.Changeling works best in a mono Tz, btw it is a great piece

 Galef wrote:
Do you guys thing I should just say "to heck with summoning" and use those Reinforcement points for the Changeling instead?

That would make the list look like this:

Spoiler:

___Batallion detachment___+3CP
Tzeencth Daemon Prince
Nurgle Daemon Prince
Nurgle Daemon Prince
All 3 have wings, 2 sets of talons & Warp bolter

1 Pink, 4 Blue & 6 Brimstone horrors
3 Blue & 7 Brimstone horrors
3 Blue & 7 Brimstone horrors

___Vanguard detachment___+1CP
Belakor
Changeling
4 Flamers
4 Flamers
4 Flamers
Thousand Sons Heldrake w/ Baleful Torrent

___Super Heavy Auxiliary___
Magnus the Red

-----------------------------------------1963pts
7 total CPs -37 Reinforcement pts remain for Horrors to Split

I think early on, I'd fill out your army as much as you can like you did here to get a feel for 8th ed Chaos.

I think the Changling is must for TzDemons.

 whembly wrote:

I think the Changling is must for TzDemons.

Well, since everything in the list except the 2 Nurgle Princes are Tz, it looks like the Changeling will go In the list.

Thanx guys