Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

they suck. There is not a single blast weapon in the Ork arsenal that is even remotely close to worth taking compared to other options in the codex.

The best weapon according to most is the BubbleChukka, but I think even that isn't true and its more about random fun, but from a competitive stand point its garbage.

My personal go to for blast weapons is the Kannon, not because its a good blast weapon but because its flexible and on average with grot gunners can do a bit of ranged damage on infantry or picking off wounds on tougher units.

So what is the problem with Ork blast weapons? It is the same for all blast weapons, the difference is that it is magnified because of our garbage ballistic skill. In 7th edition for example, a Grotzooka could put out 2 Small Blasts on infantry and reliably get between 2-4 hits EACH, so 4-8 auto hits and then around 6wounds on average. In 8th the Grotzooka is now 2D3 shots which averages 4 shots, then we roll to hit at BS3 so 2 hits on average, and then because of the change to wounding its going to wound 1-2 times a turn.

Now the immediate counter argument I run into is that Orkz don't need good ranged weapons because they are cheap and can be spammed. Quantity is its own quality. I agree with that except they aren't cheap. If they were cheap and I could take 2-3 of them for the cost that most people are taking a single blast weapon I would be ok. But that isn't the case.

IG Heavy weapons teams can field 3 Mortars doing 3 x D6 shots at S4 for a grand total of....27pts
Ork Big Gunz can field 3 Lobbas doing 3 D6 shots at S5 for a grand total of....90pts

Literally the only difference between the lobba and the Mortar is the +1 strength. The other aspect is that the Big Gun is now considered a model in itself, which is rather stupid honestly, but even then its 3 wounds at T5 with a 5+ save. I don't know about the rest of you but I would gladly give away 3 T5 wounds to reduce the cost of my Lobba by 2/3rds. That also doesn't even touch on the rerolls easily available to those Heavy Weapon teams and other benefits from IG doctrines.

Now people are going to say that this is the realm of IG, its what they are really good at so it is what it is, but what about Space Marines? compare the Whirlewind to the Kill Kannon and let me know what you think.


EDIT: Sorry I dont know why the next part got deleted

My proposed rule would be to DOUBLE the shots for Ork blast weapons, even on some of these weapons it wouldn't be enough. My other thought is making ork blast weapons auto hits. So D6 becomes D6 auto hits. Or make Blast weapons Heavy 6 or Heavy 3 instead o D6 or D3. Any combination or just one of these by themselves would greatly help.

Double shots sounds ridiculous but sadly it barely brings these under powered blast weapons to the place they were at last edition. The Grotzooka for instance would go from 2D3 to 4D3 which would average 8 shots and 4 hits. Not terrible, but basically worse then last edition where it could get 6 hits regularly. For the Kill Kannon if you gave it 2D6 it would still only HIT twice a turn. 2 shots for a S7 weapon at 24inches and it costs upwards of 27pts? still unusable.

Finally, the last option I can think of is to drastically reduce the price of these units and weapons. This would fix some of the core problems with some of these weapons while not necessarily fixing all. In the Case of the Kill Kannon if you made it a 5-10pt upgrade people might take it (even then probably not) For Grotzookas? Doesn't really fix the problem that much because the purpose is to spam them and you can't do that anymore because of the lack of dakka and how expensive the platform is teamed with the cost of the grotzookas. Basically I am advocating for an entire rewrite of Ork shooting this edition.

First of all, this is more of a rant than a proposed rule.

Secondly, from what I've heard and seen, I agree with you. Orks have recieved some buffs in the index but then their price was hiked up massively compared to other indexes. I wouldn't be apposed to a drop in price.

 mrhappyface wrote:
First of all, this is more of a rant than a proposed rule.

Secondly, from what I've heard and seen, I agree with you. Orks have recieved some buffs in the index but then their price was hiked up massively compared to other indexes. I wouldn't be apposed to a drop in price.

Amended, I don't know why that last part didn't get in

I agree with doubling the shots roll for some weapons, but not all. SAG certainly stands out as massively nerfed on D6, particularly since a lot of small blast weapons went to D6. 2D6 would make it the beast its supposed to be. The Burna on D3 makes little sense next to an Imperial flamer. On the other hand, the Bursta Cannon would be pretty ridiculous if it were hiked to 4D6. I think the Lobba would be OP on 2D6.
Points wise, I think they're not too bad for the most part, if a few buffs were dished out. Rokkits are one that are often cited as over costed but they are less than half the price of an SM missile launcher. They hit half as often, have half the range and lack a frag profile, so there's some points parity there.

 Cuz05 wrote:
I agree with doubling the shots roll for some weapons, but not all. SAG certainly stands out as massively nerfed on D6, particularly since a lot of small blast weapons went to D6. 2D6 would make it the beast its supposed to be. The Burna on D3 makes little sense next to an Imperial flamer. On the other hand, the Bursta Cannon would be pretty ridiculous if it were hiked to 4D6. I think the Lobba would be OP on 2D6.
Points wise, I think they're not too bad for the most part, if a few buffs were dished out. Rokkits are one that are often cited as over costed but they are less than half the price of an SM missile launcher. They hit half as often, have half the range and lack a frag profile, so there's some points parity there.

A Rokkit hits 1/2 as often as a Missile Launcher, it has half the range and doesn't have the frag option and is on a platform that is T4 with a 6+ Save. It is over priced because it went from 5pts to 12 and didn't gain any benefits. it wasn't considered OP last edition either, so why the MASSIVE increase in price?

Personally I think the reason for the increase in cost is due to GW being mentally deficient when it comes to writing rules. The 12pt cost makes a bit of sense when it is added to the Tankbustas because they only cost 5pts each and without that cost they would be OP as hell. Tankbustas are decent for their price, I still say slightly over priced, but then when you put it on another platform you realize....yeah no. Why? Tankbustas come with special rules that make that 12pts worth it, putting 2 on a DeffKopta? No, not worth it. What about on a Battlewagon? 48pts for 4 when last edition we could get 4 for 20? no, ridiculously over priced. And again I ask, last edition were 4 Rokkitz on a Battlewagon OP? or were they about Meh?

For Ork blast weapons, we had some seriously lackluster blast weapons last edition and then they went and nerfed them into the ground. Previously the only Blast weapon worth noting was the KMK which is crap now. Doubling ork blast shots by itself wouldn't even fix the problem but it would make it slightly more likely that people would use those models which are currently collecting dust.

I think the fix for ork blasts would be to remove some of the randomness.

I see 3 possible ways to do this

1.) Instead of random shots, have fixed shots. So for the SAG just make it 6 shots, on average only 2 will hit anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily be OP.

2.) Reduce randomness on shots, have their blasts all be x +DX. So You could make the SAG say 3 or 4 + D3 shots instead of D6 shots. This means you are always getting a minimum number of shots.

3.) Have things that are meant to be blasts give orks a bonus to their BS. Leave the SAG at D6 shots, but have it give +2 to your to hit roll. This means you might end up with shots, but at least those shots hit reasonably often.

Comparing these three approaches mathematically

1.)6 shots at BS 5+ would be 2 hits on average
2.) 3 + D3 = 5 shots which would be 1.67 hits on average, 4 + D3 would be 6 shots on average so 2 hits.
3.) D6 shots and BS +2 would average 3.5 shots, at BS 3+ or 2.33 hits.

So all 3 are fairly close in utility.

I am not saying that isn't a bad idea, but to put that in perspective, solely based on the SAG. Would you be willing to pay 100pts for a model that hits twice a turn at S2D6 and does -4AP and D3 damage? The average Roll for strength is 7 keep in mind

on the flipside of that, a SM Dev Squad armed with Lascannons gets 3 hits on average at S9 -3AP D6 Damage and costs 35pts less.

The high end damage for a SAG is 6 hits (miracle in itself) 6 wounds, and 3 damage each = 18 damage.

The High end Damage for a Dev Squad is 4 hits, 4 wounds and 24 damage.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the SAG is wicked over priced for how useless it is, but without changing the points cost the only way to fix the problem is to drastically increase the number of shots it gets OR give it auto hits. And for that price I would want probably 3-4 autohits or average hits to be 3+ which would mean 9 shots minimum.

As it stands Ork ranged weapons are garbage almost across the board and that has a lot to do with the fact that GW doesn't know how to scale damage. We pay premium points for weapons that are less effective then imperial equivalents, and even more to that, we relied on blasts to even the playing field in regards to accuracy.

My favorite ranged weapon was the Grotzooka, I once managed to inflict 63 wounds on a Nid Players squad because of lucky hit rolls, this edition the absolute luckiest I can get with Grotzookas is 36 hits from 6 kanz armed with Grotzookas, and that is saying everything hits and gets maximum shots realistically though the average for 6 Grotzookas (18in range mind you) is 24 shots, 12 hits. And in case you feel that is really good, keep in mind that unit costs 366pts and has 6in movement with a range 18 gun and it can't deep strike or anything else and we have no ability to do so with other units, so it has to slowly walk up the board to get in range.

Comparing that to Space Marine S6 weapons.... For 300pts (66pts less) you can field 3 Razorbacks armed with Twin Assault Cannons which put out 36 S6 AP-1 shots, 24 will hit and it has that nice -1AP which Grotzookas don't have. that razorback also moves twice as fast as Kanz, has more toughness, has twice as many wounds, better leadership and 6inches more range.

What do the Kanz have over that Razorback? Kan Klaws, S8 CCWs that hit on 5s and wound on 3s (2s against T4)

GW really just needs to think these things through better.

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not saying that isn't a bad idea, but to put that in perspective, solely based on the SAG. Would you be willing to pay 100pts for a model that hits twice a turn at S2D6 and does -4AP and D3 damage? The average Roll for strength is 7 keep in mind

on the flipside of that, a SM Dev Squad armed with Lascannons gets 3 hits on average at S9 -3AP D6 Damage and costs 35pts less.

The high end damage for a SAG is 6 hits (miracle in itself) 6 wounds, and 3 damage each = 18 damage.

The High end Damage for a Dev Squad is 4 hits, 4 wounds and 24 damage.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the SAG is wicked over priced for how useless it is, but without changing the points cost the only way to fix the problem is to drastically increase the number of shots it gets OR give it auto hits. And for that price I would want probably 3-4 autohits or average hits to be 3+ which would mean 9 shots minimum.

As it stands Ork ranged weapons are garbage almost across the board and that has a lot to do with the fact that GW doesn't know how to scale damage. We pay premium points for weapons that are less effective then imperial equivalents, and even more to that, we relied on blasts to even the playing field in regards to accuracy.

My favorite ranged weapon was the Grotzooka, I once managed to inflict 63 wounds on a Nid Players squad because of lucky hit rolls, this edition the absolute luckiest I can get with Grotzookas is 36 hits from 6 kanz armed with Grotzookas, and that is saying everything hits and gets maximum shots realistically though the average for 6 Grotzookas (18in range mind you) is 24 shots, 12 hits. And in case you feel that is really good, keep in mind that unit costs 366pts and has 6in movement with a range 18 gun and it can't deep strike or anything else and we have no ability to do so with other units, so it has to slowly walk up the board to get in range.

Comparing that to Space Marine S6 weapons.... For 300pts (66pts less) you can field 3 Razorbacks armed with Twin Assault Cannons which put out 36 S6 AP-1 shots, 24 will hit and it has that nice -1AP which Grotzookas don't have. that razorback also moves twice as fast as Kanz, has more toughness, has twice as many wounds, better leadership and 6inches more range.

What do the Kanz have over that Razorback? Kan Klaws, S8 CCWs that hit on 5s and wound on 3s (2s against T4)

GW really just needs to think these things through better.

I don't get where you are getting a SM dev squad with 4 lascannons being cheaper than the SAG, they are 65 points more expensive. To be fairly even points to a big mek with SAG at 100 points (if he got 6 shots), they would have only 2 lascannons and be 115 points. But if we were to look at even points worth. Lets take 3 full lascannon Dev squads (495 points), vs 5 SAG big meks. Against T7 vehicles: Devs wound ~5 times (4.72) for 16.5 wounds (using actual average hits). The Big Meks do 5 wounds (10 hits) for 10 damage on average (using 7 as the Str). So the devs are better mostly due to higher damage, but the big meks are also basically immune to shooting from your opponent. So could they still use a buff sure, but they would at least be usable as a decent anti-tank element. Especially with CP re-rolls, they could be pretty decent.

As for kans, they suffer from as you point out having kan klaws, if you want them to be a shooting unit those klaws are wasted points as those points are built into the kan. If you could double up on shooting weapons (lets say klaws are 25 points worth of value) If kans were 26 points base and could take 2 grotzookas that had 6 shots each for 20 points, I think they would be pretty good 276 points for a durable, reliable shooting unit that put out 72 S 6 shots at 18" would be pretty good. In fact you could probably bump the cost of grotzookas up a bit to make it more balanced. As it is they are paying points to be mediocre at both shooting and assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either that or Kans needed at least WS 4+

I don`t like comparing raw shooting output because it makes no sense when you pay points for other stuff.

More modells, better footprint, mob rule, er we go, better CC and orks profit a lot from the new rules for shooting.
Shoot while advancing, splitting firepower und pistols in CC are pretty good.
Sure you often pay for stuff you don`t need / use and won`t fight often with lootas, but that`s just about the list you play.

Orks can still rock at shooting but since our poor BS you need to spam shooting units.
When you use 50%+ of the points for Ghaz, Wyrdboys, Banner, Kommandos etc. that leaves not many points for the shooty stuff so don`t expect miracles.

And you need lots of it to compare the BS, losses and all the -1 to hit for advancing / enemy special rules.

If you go for 80-90% shooting units you have a decent amount of demage output und when enemies reach your lines you can defend yourself much better then IG or Tau gunlines.
That devastor squad with 4 LasCas will be easily overrun and has poor defensive fire on assault units but the same amount of points in lootas will give up to 30 shots defense fire and has 20 attacks in CC.


And IG needs to have cheap firepower cause they suck at CC and some CC units reaching their gunline can devastate 2/3 of the army.


And for the shock attack gun, sure it`s expensive but with it`s huge range, all the other ork stuff in front of it and being a character you should be able to keep it safe and fire with it unharmed all 5-7 turns.
For example in that devastor squad and even in cover you will blow them away faster than the marine player can say LasCa master race.
Plus it is an easy to protect warlord to deny the victory point. While i never lost my SAG Mek in 8th edition i often lost my warboss who needs to be played much more offensive to buff your boyz and crush stuff in CC.
In which he did a worse job then my Big Mek so far. :( Still can`t live with him just being a support character.

Is 100 points expensive for the damage output of the SAG? It sure is.
Is the Mek concerning all the other stuff still worth his points? Maybe, but sure as hell that`s additional advantage you can`t calculate with mathhammer.


edit: Breng77 had the same idea and faster tiping.


@Cans: Distraction unit that can shoot and fight. Bring enough other stuff and they will get an chance to prove worthy your spent points.
In masses + other vehicles and KFF Meks they can be pretty bothersome.

The SAG would only be worth it though with the changes to blasts I suggest. As it is now it has too many layers of random.

Ork shooting in general is sub par (which it is meant to be really) simply because most high strength shooting isn't high in shots. We also lack any characters that buff shooting. This generally isn't an issue except when flyers are concerned because there isn't realistically another way to deal with them )short of playing tons of stormboyz.)

Breng77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not saying that isn't a bad idea, but to put that in perspective, solely based on the SAG. Would you be willing to pay 100pts for a model that hits twice a turn at S2D6 and does -4AP and D3 damage? The average Roll for strength is 7 keep in mind

on the flipside of that, a SM Dev Squad armed with Lascannons gets 3 hits on average at S9 -3AP D6 Damage and costs 35pts less.

The high end damage for a SAG is 6 hits (miracle in itself) 6 wounds, and 3 damage each = 18 damage.

The High end Damage for a Dev Squad is 4 hits, 4 wounds and 24 damage.

Now don't get me wrong, I think the SAG is wicked over priced for how useless it is, but without changing the points cost the only way to fix the problem is to drastically increase the number of shots it gets OR give it auto hits. And for that price I would want probably 3-4 autohits or average hits to be 3+ which would mean 9 shots minimum.

As it stands Ork ranged weapons are garbage almost across the board and that has a lot to do with the fact that GW doesn't know how to scale damage. We pay premium points for weapons that are less effective then imperial equivalents, and even more to that, we relied on blasts to even the playing field in regards to accuracy.

My favorite ranged weapon was the Grotzooka, I once managed to inflict 63 wounds on a Nid Players squad because of lucky hit rolls, this edition the absolute luckiest I can get with Grotzookas is 36 hits from 6 kanz armed with Grotzookas, and that is saying everything hits and gets maximum shots realistically though the average for 6 Grotzookas (18in range mind you) is 24 shots, 12 hits. And in case you feel that is really good, keep in mind that unit costs 366pts and has 6in movement with a range 18 gun and it can't deep strike or anything else and we have no ability to do so with other units, so it has to slowly walk up the board to get in range.

Comparing that to Space Marine S6 weapons.... For 300pts (66pts less) you can field 3 Razorbacks armed with Twin Assault Cannons which put out 36 S6 AP-1 shots, 24 will hit and it has that nice -1AP which Grotzookas don't have. that razorback also moves twice as fast as Kanz, has more toughness, has twice as many wounds, better leadership and 6inches more range.

What do the Kanz have over that Razorback? Kan Klaws, S8 CCWs that hit on 5s and wound on 3s (2s against T4)

GW really just needs to think these things through better.

I don't get where you are getting a SM dev squad with 4 lascannons being cheaper than the SAG, they are 65 points more expensive. To be fairly even points to a big mek with SAG at 100 points (if he got 6 shots), they would have only 2 lascannons and be 115 points. But if we were to look at even points worth. Lets take 3 full lascannon Dev squads (495 points), vs 5 SAG big meks. Against T7 vehicles: Devs wound ~5 times (4.72) for 16.5 wounds (using actual average hits). The Big Meks do 5 wounds (10 hits) for 10 damage on average (using 7 as the Str). So the devs are better mostly due to higher damage, but the big meks are also basically immune to shooting from your opponent. So could they still use a buff sure, but they would at least be usable as a decent anti-tank element. Especially with CP re-rolls, they could be pretty decent.

As for kans, they suffer from as you point out having kan klaws, if you want them to be a shooting unit those klaws are wasted points as those points are built into the kan. If you could double up on shooting weapons (lets say klaws are 25 points worth of value) If kans were 26 points base and could take 2 grotzookas that had 6 shots each for 20 points, I think they would be pretty good 276 points for a durable, reliable shooting unit that put out 72 S 6 shots at 18" would be pretty good. In fact you could probably bump the cost of grotzookas up a bit to make it more balanced. As it is they are paying points to be mediocre at both shooting and assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either that or Kans needed at least WS 4+

My apologize I was comparing two different lists on Battlescribe, you are correct. the Big Mek is 65pts cheaper.

My point was that the Big Mekz shooting went to hell in a hand basket. Last edition you wouldn't field a SAG in a competitive game, but in a friendly game you might field one for fun. In that game you could drop a pie plate that had AP2 on anything in the game and then have a decent chance to wound it (S7 being the average) it had a number of downsides but like I said, it wasn't competitive, it was for fun.

This edition it lost the ability to hit 5-7 models on average and now averages 1. Its 100pts for that Big Mek who doesn't do anything else except shoot that weapon. Its not worth it.

Grot you seem to be stuck on the idea that being good at CC and shooting is a benefit. It literally is the exact opposite. 40k is a game of specialists, and our specialists pay premium points for their weapons simply because they have WS3+ and 2 attacks base. But even our Grot units for some reason pay that same premium even though they suck at CC. Grotz are relatively expensive for how crap they are.

But in the case of the Kanz specifically, you are paying to give them a Kan Klaw which they suck at using (1 hit on average a turn, 5/6 chance to wound T4 a turn) You are also paying to give them a ranged weapon which is over priced for how little it does. With the grotzookas you are paying to give them an extremely short ranged gun that doesn't have an AP value.

With the breakdown, Klaws cost about 25pts each, Grotzookas are 10pts each. So the base cost of a Kan is 26pts. As you mentioned, If I could get rid of the klaw I would, but realistically they still don't have a good weapon to put on it. Grotzookas are Heavy 2D3 and have a range of 18 so they NEED to move and they don't have a special rule to help them shoot and move so its still basically a BS5+ model. And if you could pay 20pts to give them 2 grotzookas you are still sinking 46pts into a model that has no range and only S6 shooting without AP. Against a Tactical squad a squad of 6 Killa Kanz duel armed with Grotzookas will shoot 8 shots each for 48 shots, at BS5+ that is 16 hits and against T4 that is about 11 wounds. vs that 3+ armor that equals about 2-3 dead Marines who each cost 13pts? So a unit costing you 276pts at extremely short range has managed to kill less then 40pts of Marines when it finally got in range.....Something in the Ork codex needs fixing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
The SAG would only be worth it though with the changes to blasts I suggest. As it is now it has too many layers of random.

Ork shooting in general is sub par (which it is meant to be really) simply because most high strength shooting isn't high in shots. We also lack any characters that buff shooting. This generally isn't an issue except when flyers are concerned because there isn't realistically another way to deal with them )short of playing tons of stormboyz.)

Our CC Needs to get stronger to compensate for the fact that our ranged weapons are useless

That is why it needs a fix to the blasts of not being random. Without it if you could swap out you would just take 2 big shootas, 2 rokkits, or 2 Skorchas given the current options. Or at least Grotzookas need to be changed to assault weapons.

2 big shootas would be 32 points per model and give you 48 BS 4+ S5 shots that they could move and fire with 36" range. At 192 points for a squad of 6

2 Rokkits would be 50 points per model and give 12 Rokkit shots for 300 points at BS 4+ on a durable platform. and about the same cost as 12 tank bustas in a trukk.

2 Skorchas really doesn't use their BS so is probably the least attractive option at 12 D6 S5 hits. But they could always advance but would run you 360 points. But 42 S 5 hits isn't terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
The SAG would only be worth it though with the changes to blasts I suggest. As it is now it has too many layers of random.

Ork shooting in general is sub par (which it is meant to be really) simply because most high strength shooting isn't high in shots. We also lack any characters that buff shooting. This generally isn't an issue except when flyers are concerned because there isn't realistically another way to deal with them )short of playing tons of stormboyz.)

Our CC Needs to get stronger to compensate for the fact that our ranged weapons are useless

For many units I agree, interestingly enough orks have almost as many "Specialist" shooting units as they do CC units, which might be the issue.

Breng77 wrote:
That is why it needs a fix to the blasts of not being random. Without it if you could swap out you would just take 2 big shootas, 2 rokkits, or 2 Skorchas given the current options. Or at least Grotzookas need to be changed to assault weapons.

2 big shootas would be 32 points per model and give you 48 BS 4+ S5 shots that they could move and fire with 36" range. At 192 points for a squad of 6

2 Rokkits would be 50 points per model and give 12 Rokkit shots for 300 points at BS 4+ on a durable platform. and about the same cost as 12 tank bustas in a trukk.

2 Skorchas really doesn't use their BS so is probably the least attractive option at 12 D6 S5 hits. But they could always advance but would run you 360 points. But 42 S 5 hits isn't terrible.

For the Big Shootas though, keep in mind its a T5 4wound model with a 3+ save. 2 Big shootas would cost 6pts each so it would be 38pts each x6 = 228pts. For 200pts a SM player can take 2 Razorbacks who can push out 24 S6 AP-1 shots at 24in range and they have twice the movement range AND they are T7 10 wounds and 3+ save. Those 24 shots will hit 16 times and do pretty damned good damage against everything. They can also transport 6 models. Those Big Shootas on the other hand hit 24 times but do less damage because lower strength and no -1AP.

To Summarize, 2 Razorbacks have 20 wounds to the KillaKanz 24, they have T7 to the Kanz T5, they move 12 to the Kanz 6 they hit on 3s to the Kanz 4s. So still not really worth it for the points costs. Like I said, GW really needs to rethink how it prices things.

Your idea was a good one though, probably the kicker is the weapons costs for Orkz being over priced. Since we suck at shooting our weapons should be cheap not more expensive.

Grot you seem to be stuck on the idea that being good at CC and shooting is a benefit. It literally is the exact opposite. 40k is a game of specialists, and our specialists pay premium points for their weapons simply because they have WS3+ and 2 attacks base. But even our Grot units for some reason pay that same premium even though they suck at CC. Grotz are relatively expensive for how crap they are.

It is a benefit if you know how to use it and play them with a more allrounder point of view.
Not saying you should charge your lootaz side by side with choppa boys, but there are enough chances for them to hit at CC - since the rules for reserves have drasticly changed there is more stuff in front of your doorstep then ever.
In gunlines they are perfekt to shield your Mek / Big guns and to block enemy movement / reserves.

And Grots, really?
30 points for a cheap objective camper with 10 LP and easy to hide. Or in large mobs to screen the table.
Or jump them in front of a tank gunline, multicharge and deny all of them their shooting.


@2 Razorbacks vs Kanz: Why compare 2 totally different units without army list context. The ork will often have a KFF to shield his tanks / walkers so they would have a 5++ and they have their claws which do flat D3.
Walking with the boyz and all the other stuff you have a good chance they will shoot and fight in a game. Then there is cover, LOS blocking, target priorities and, and, and...
Thats stuff you can`t calculate plus normally you have more units and models than that marine which will give you more flexibility & field controll.
This is why mathhammer may be usefull to choose between 2 units for your army to fulfill the same task but has limited significance for comparing two different armies - especially when they play that different.
(Allthough you`re right, some of our stuff is a bit expensive.)

Sure you can look for the perfekt example for every ork unit to make it look crappy or you take what you have and have fun with a great army that still can serve a good punch.
It`s sad you have a oppinion that bad about Orks and see only the bad stuff because you clearly know the orks and could add good ideas with a more positive view.

And finally we`re all greenskins trying to please our lords Gork and Mork.

 Grotrebel wrote:


It is a benefit if you know how to use it and play them with a more allrounder point of view.
Not saying you should charge your lootaz side by side with choppa boys, but there are enough chances for them to hit at CC - since the rules for reserves have drasticly changed there is more stuff in front of your doorstep then ever.
In gunlines they are perfekt to shield your Mek / Big guns and to block enemy movement / reserves.

Lootas are never supposed to get into CC and if they do something has gone seriously wrong. Also, who is going to waste a deep strike on lootas when you can sneeze at them and they die because of the change to the cover rules? I mean there is a strategy for using them but their 2 attacks base never come into the equation, so you are paying extra points for something you should never use and if you do need to use it....well you are probably already dead.

And Grots, really?
30 points for a cheap objective camper with 10 LP and easy to hide. Or in large mobs to screen the table.
Or jump them in front of a tank gunline, multicharge and deny all of them their shooting.

Yes Grotz suck, comparing them to other cheap infantry models like conscripts or termagants and you can see what I mean. Termagants are 1pt more expensive and have better WS, S, T and leadership. They come standard with a better gun and can do the exact same things as a Grot but better.

@2 Razorbacks vs Kanz: Why compare 2 totally different units without army list context. The ork will often have a KFF to shield his tanks / walkers so they would have a 5++ and they have their claws which do flat D3.
Walking with the boyz and all the other stuff you have a good chance they will shoot and fight in a game. Then there is cover, LOS blocking, target priorities and, and, and...
Thats stuff you can`t calculate plus normally you have more units and models than that marine which will give you more flexibility & field controll.
This is why mathhammer may be usefull to choose between 2 units for your army to fulfill the same task but has limited significance for comparing two different armies - especially when they play that different.
(Allthough you`re right, some of our stuff is a bit expensive.)

I compared Razorbacks to Kanz because when equipped with Grotzookas and/or Big Shootas they fulfill the same role, anti infantry. You talk about context, I am not. I am comparing two different units who are doing similar roles for different factions. They are similar in points value (kind of, without a price reduction you can actually field 3 Razorbacks for less price then 6 Kanz) Cover/LOS will be the same for both units and is situational at best, target priorities? they share a target priority. The fact is that 6 Kanz with Big Shootas pump out 18 S5 shots, 9 hits and against T4, 6 wounds, against 3+ armor that = 2 damage. For cheaper, 3 razorbacks have 36 S6 AP-1 shots, either hitting on 3s or 4s (heavy movement) getting either 24 or 18 hits, against T4 that is 16 or 12 wounds, against 3+ save that is 8 or 6 damage. For Grotzookas its even worse since the Zooka hits on 5s (Short range + heavy + movement) so 2D3 =4 shots each for 24 shots, hitting on 5s = 8 hits, wounding on 3s = 5 wounds no AP Modifier = 1.6 casualties.

So our stuff isn't just "A bit expensive" its horrendously so. Again, we are paying for those Kanz to have lackluster shooting AND crappy CC abilities. If they focused on one they would be a lot more points efficient.

Sure you can look for the perfekt example for every ork unit to make it look crappy or you take what you have and have fun with a great army that still can serve a good punch.
It`s sad you have a oppinion that bad about Orks and see only the bad stuff because you clearly know the orks and could add good ideas with a more positive view.

And finally we`re all greenskins trying to please our lords Gork and Mork.

Part of playing the game is knowing your opponent, knowing yourself, knowing your opponents strengths and weaknesses and knowing your own strengths and weaknesses.

I may come across as negative but I am trying to make valid points about our factions strengths and weaknesses while comparing it to similar units in other factions to demonstrate their strengths and weaknesses.

At the moment, Reese and his GW masters are wrong. Ork Blast weapons are terrible, and the codex in general is trash. We need a new codex ASAP and it needs to be on point or else we are going to suffer yet another edition on the bottom tier.