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2017/07/19 11:42:08
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Posted this up in another thread, but I thought it would be an interesting background discussion.
What do people think the Eldar would be like during the Horus Heresy/30k setting? Personally, I'd think that they would be radically different from the Eldar factions you see today.
People often forget that the event that kicked off the Great Crusade was the Fall of the Eldar. Given how soon after the Heresy happened, in terms of timeline the collapse of the Eldar civilisation was pretty much alongside the collapse of the Imperium. During the Heresy, they'd still be scrabbling around in the ashes of their civilisation, trying desperately to survive. They're not established. They're immediately post-apocalypse. Here's a list of things that I'd think would be different:
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Craftworlders
1. No Aspect Warriors. Immediately post-Fall, Asurmen was still teaching the Phoenix Lords. Almost certainly they hadn't got to the point of travelling to the craftworlds to spread their teachings. Even if they had just started, they would be far from established. Weird monks teaching weird spiritual junk to maybe a dozen dudes and dudettes. About as far from an army as possible. Oh, and no Karandras yet. It'd still be Arhra.
2. No Path system. Again, one of Asurmen's inventions. No time to have spread it anywhere or teach anyone but the Asurya and perhaps a handful of others. Certainly not enough time for it to become a way of life.
3. Probably no Infinity Circuit. Again, invented post-Fall by Iyanden. That will have taken time. Perhaps they had some sort of proto-Infinity Circuit aboard Eldar vessels as a sort of control mechanism, but certainly the idea of using it as storage for souls wouldn't exist. Even if Iyanden had invented it in super-quick time after the Fall (unlikely given the turmoil), it would not have spread yet.
4. Spirit stones either wouldn't exist or would be fantastically rare. They're harvested from the Crone Worlds. I doubt the Eldar even know that's how to get them at this point. If anyone is venturing back into the maw of Slaanesh, they're certainly not coming back.
5. Craftworlds would be much smaller, and probably accompanied by a fleet of other fleeing ships. It's stated that the Craftworlds of today have grown massively in size since their pre-Fall trader days.
6. Craftworld military would be a shambles. They're trading vessels, not warships. Perhaps they had some sort of standing militia (which might have evolved into the Guardians), but pre-Fall Eldar relied on automatons for military endeavours. Presumably, those stopped working post-Fall as we don't see them in current armies (perhaps the shells of them went on to become Wraithguard, but seeing as Spirit Stones and Infinity Circuits are non-existent, they'd have no way of using them).
7. Probably no wraith units because of the above. Yes, I know there's instances of them in that Heresy book with Fulgrim, but I'm fairly certain that the author of that book didn't know the faintest thing about the Eldar beyond what's on the front of the Start Collecting box.
So, add all that together and basically Craftworlders as we know them don't exist at all. They're more akin to Corsairs/Refugees, but with a sizeable capital ship.
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Dark Eldar
1. No Kabals, and vastly different social structure. Vect brought in the idea of Kabals when he deposed the noble houses that previously ruled Commorragh (and would still have ruled Commorragh for quite some time post-Fall). They were still slavers, and there's evidence in the Asurmen book of proto-Dark Eldar raiding Eldar worlds as their civilisation collapsed, so they would probably still be raiding. I doubt it would be anywhere near as efficient though. If there's one thing that Vect has brought the Dark Eldar, it's efficiency.
2. Wych Cults would have still existed. Lelith Hesperax is stated to have been notorious in the arenas before Vect was born.
3. Covens I'm not so sure about. The idea of a coven of Haemonculi working together is stated to have been a response to Vect's restructure of Kabals, so they probably wouldn't be working together. Perhaps they were more mad scientists in the employ of others, or working alone on pet experiments. The jury's out as to whether they had their widespread cloning tech.
4. Speaking of Tech, theirs would be wildly different to the DEldar tech we see today. Probably similar to craftworld tech. Reason being that they're not psychically stunted yet, so all of their previous tech would still be working for them and they'd have no drive to need to change it.
5. Psykers wouldn't be banned yet. Basically everyone;s a psyker, and it's just as dangerous as having psykers in Commorragh in 40k. Probably quite a lot of daemonic incursions.
6. Commorragh would probably not quite exist in the form we know now. It would still exist, but as only the largest of a dizzying array of sub-realms.
So again, probably quite similar to Corsairs, but the more S&M style ones. Twisted noble houses.
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Harlequins
1. I don't think these guys existed yet. Cegorach's probably still in hiding after witnessing the butchering of every fellow Eldar God, and Slaanesh is still glutted with billions of Eldar souls. Even if he's doing something rather than simply keeping his head down, he hasn't had much time to recruit, let alone establish Harlequins as any sort of recognised force. Probably anyone claiming Cegorach is alive would be viewed as mad seeing as all the other Gods are pretty comprehensively murdered. Certainly not any sort of authority figure.
2. Perhaps the Black Library exists. Can't remember whether it was a craftworld that got put into the webway to hide it at some point, or a separate webway realm containing a craftworld.
So, basically, Harlequins don't exist yet.
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Corsairs
1. Probably indistinguishable from Craftworlders at this point.
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Exodites
1. Probably pretty much unchanged, depending on whether you like your exodites to be space-hillbillies (tedious), or technobarbarian Eldar (much better!).
2. Probably more of them though seeing as they haven't been eaten by Tyranids yet.
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2017/07/19 13:58:20
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
UK
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It's interesting to think about it.
The Eldar pop up a few times in the HH novels. Notably in Fulgrim where Eldrad tries to warn the primarch of the oncoming war.
The Dark Eldar also appear in one of the short story compilations where some Space Wolves lead a guerilla campaign against them.
The DE seem fairly different from their current day counterparts, but still have recognisable things like Venoms and their desire to inflict pain.
Haven't seen any Quins pop up yet, but I'd imagine they are around, but perhaps like you say they are just getting started.
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2017/07/19 14:14:01
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Fixture of Dakka
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Quins first popped out in M32 according to their codex I think.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2017/07/19 14:25:35
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As per Codex Harlequins:
C.M32
Cegorach's Summons
In the wake of the Fall, the surviving worshippers of the Laughing God disappear into the webway without a word of explanation.
The title suggests that Cegorach had summoned them in order to lay out his plans and turn them from just performers into warriors as well.
They don't reappear until 641.M33 when they help an Ulthwe warhost defeat a horde of Slaaneshi Daemons. The first Solitaire does not appear until 666.M33 in the first ever performance of the Fall.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 14:25:49
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2017/07/19 14:27:49
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Fixture of Dakka
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They could have done stuff before then without people knowing like clearing out Webway bits. Solitaires are also very good at hiding so they could easily have been around well before the first sighting.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2017/07/19 15:39:58
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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General Kroll wrote:It's interesting to think about it.
The Eldar pop up a few times in the HH novels. Notably in Fulgrim where Eldrad tries to warn the primarch of the oncoming war.
The Dark Eldar also appear in one of the short story compilations where some Space Wolves lead a guerilla campaign against them.
The DE seem fairly different from their current day counterparts, but still have recognisable things like Venoms and their desire to inflict pain.
Haven't seen any Quins pop up yet, but I'd imagine they are around, but perhaps like you say they are just getting started.
It is an interesting topic I'm slightly leery of stuff that appears in the HH novels because I have severe doubts as to whether the writers actually put much thought into the Eldar appearances. Things like the given lifespan of an Eldar (without freaky technomancy like Vect) being give or take 1000 years, but somehow Eldrad being 10,000. Also, there's a Wraithlord there too I think which again I think is just someone not thinking it through properly, or at least not doing their research.
The DE/ SW short story seems a little better. At least they didn't increase the established life expectancy of a species by an order of magnitude. The depiction of DEldar as different, but with the first hints of their present culture showing through seems fitting.
Iracundus wrote:As per Codex Harlequins:
C.M32
Cegorach's Summons
In the wake of the Fall, the surviving worshippers of the Laughing God disappear into the webway without a word of explanation.
The title suggests that Cegorach had summoned them in order to lay out his plans and turn them from just performers into warriors as well.
They don't reappear until 641.M33 when they help an Ulthwe warhost defeat a horde of Slaaneshi Daemons. The first Solitaire does not appear until 666.M33 in the first ever performance of the Fall.
Perfect this is a great piece of information. This does appear to indicate that Harlequins as a force or even an organisation didn't exist until M32. There were 'the surviving worshippers of the Laughing God', which perhaps could have been Harlequin-esque, but they definitely don't seem organised in any way.
Yes they could have been behind the scenes clearing up the webway, but personally I think that's less likely. Occam's Razor would suggest that they weren't, given the information we have about them. Not impossible at all though.
Speaking of the webway actually, I'd expect that would be full of daemons. The birth of a Chaos God right in the heart of the webway network would certainly rupture enough gates to flood the place. The fact that the Eldar regained any semblance of control over the webway is pretty impressive actually. Perhaps the majority of their early wars for survival were purging daemons from there.
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2017/07/19 16:05:55
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Wicked Warp Spider
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I imagine early Craftworlds would be something like Battlestar Galactica armadas of civilian vessels around some military (or militarised) larger ships and have mostly Guardianesque military.
Exodites would be a bit different, as they are a pre-fall escapists with a fresh "We told you so!" effect and not yet established colonies. They were nor hillbillies nor technobarbarians - they were "escape from decadence" type of folk and yet to mount their dragons.
Harlequins pre-fall would be just actor troupes, telling tales of different worlds and wandering through webways, just like medieval troupes. But since webway became dangerous post-fall, they would have to adapt or die, so Cegorah would teach them directly how to militarise. Also, the webway infestation is the very reason why Harlequins are Eldar anti-chaos specialists, they were simply the most chaos-exposed faction. They would probably be so preoccupied by survival, that interactions with Imperium would be minimal to say the least.
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2017/07/19 16:53:22
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Yeah the Battlestar Galactica analogy is a great one. We know from Fracture of Biel Tan that modern craftworlds are sort of amalgamations of numerous vessels, so it would make sense that they would have started as flotillas.
Great insight that the exodites would have the strongest case of 'i told you so' ever recorded. An interesting thing to point out is that they were 'escape the decadence of the Eldar Empire', which isn't exactly a high bar. For all we know, that could have meant just having regular orgies like their ancestors used to have, rather than the more...inventive...kind devised later on.
I do remember from the Asurmen book that many exodite colonies were well established before the Fall though, as their exodus began before a lot of the really bad rot set in.
Agreed that Cegorach would have to militarise them, and that they'd have spent a long time fighting in the webway. It appears that that occurred in roughly M32, when Cegorach called them all to him.
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2017/07/19 18:56:59
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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During her discussion with Khaine in her novel, Jain Zar mentions that in the earliest days before Asurmen introduced the Path, Craftworlds would occasionally find themselves overwhelmed by Khaine's bloodlust and would basically tear themselves apart due to his influence.
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2017/07/19 23:47:35
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Interesting, and also something I was wondering about. I know that an awakening Avatar has a marked effect on a craftworld's populace, causing tempers to flare as primordial psychic rage bubbles up inside each citizen.
What would the Eldar do when Khaine had literally just been torn to pieces, with no Path system to hide behind?
Murder each other, apparently.
Fits perfectly really. Technically I suppose Khaine is a War God, but first and foremost he is God of Murder.
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2017/07/20 00:17:50
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Robin5t wrote:During her discussion with Khaine in her novel, Jain Zar mentions that in the earliest days before Asurmen introduced the Path, Craftworlds would occasionally find themselves overwhelmed by Khaine's bloodlust and would basically tear themselves apart due to his influence.
I'd like to ask for a more specific page citation as I cannot find any such reference in the book.
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2017/07/20 18:55:10
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Iracundus wrote: Robin5t wrote:During her discussion with Khaine in her novel, Jain Zar mentions that in the earliest days before Asurmen introduced the Path, Craftworlds would occasionally find themselves overwhelmed by Khaine's bloodlust and would basically tear themselves apart due to his influence.
I'd like to ask for a more specific page citation as I cannot find any such reference in the book.
Page 142, second line from the bottom.
"We will not return to those bloody days when craftworlds tore themselves apart at your command. We have the Path to contain those excesses now. You are contained now, a weapon to be unsheathed and nothing more."
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2017/07/20 18:58:44
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Norn Queen
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but I'm fairly certain that the author of that book didn't know the faintest thing about the Eldar beyond what's on the front of the Start Collecting box.
Love it
Interesting thread by the way.
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Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
"Feelin' goods, good enough". |
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2017/07/20 22:12:46
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The way I get around the "Eldrad is 10,000 years old" thing, is by simply believing that he's a sort of Exarch or Phoenix Lord. "Eldrad Ulthran" is simply a title, and the head seer of Ulthwé is an entity just like an Exarch, a hive mind of sorts, made up of every head seer contained within armor/robes.
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Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
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2017/07/20 22:20:03
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Norn Queen
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Except Eldar can live that long just fine.
Also the city of Commorragh was well established even pre-fall and at the very latest some time very soon after the fall, since they were raiding Vulkan's planet for some time.
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2017/07/20 22:47:56
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Ratius wrote:but I'm fairly certain that the author of that book didn't know the faintest thing about the Eldar beyond what's on the front of the Start Collecting box.
Love it
Interesting thread by the way.
Haha thanks
Verviedi wrote:The way I get around the "Eldrad is 10,000 years old" thing, is by simply believing that he's a sort of Exarch or Phoenix Lord. "Eldrad Ulthran" is simply a title, and the head seer of Ulthwé is an entity just like an Exarch, a hive mind of sorts, made up of every head seer contained within armor/robes.
Yeah I quite like the idea that it's more of a title than just one dude, so there was one 'Eldrad' who met Fulgrim, and another that woke Ynnead. It's also a way of reconciling the 13th Black Crusade retcon where Eldrad died if you want to weave that into your headcanon somehow.
BaconCatBug wrote:Except Eldar can live that long just fine.
Also the city of Commorragh was well established even pre-fall and at the very latest some time very soon after the fall, since they were raiding Vulkan's planet for some time.
Can they live that long just fine? The Dark Eldar can, but they artificially prolong their lives through a sort of soul-vampirism. I can't think of anyone else who is that old naturally. The other thing that makes no sense if Eldrad lives that long anyway is the Dome of Crystal Seers. The fluff is that as powerful seers age, their bodies begin to crystalise as some sort of reaction to the psychic power flowing through them. Each craftworld has a dome where these ancient seers retire and eventually meld entirely with the wraithbone conduits of the infinity circuit. If Eldrad is 10,000+ years old with no sign of crystalisation, just how long would Eldar have to live to become entirely crystalline?
You're absolutely right though that Commorragh existed well before the Fall as one of many webway ports and private realms. It was even the most powerful of all of them, but it would have been a shadow of what it is now. Over the years since the Fall it's systematically enveloped and assimilated damn near all of the other independent webway realms, forming a sort of Eldar super-hive hanging within the webway.
You do make an interesting point though. Just how powerful was Commorragh pre-Fall? Were they raiding other Eldar worlds as part of their gradual descent into depravity? Might have been raiding far earlier than thought...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/20 22:50:33
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2017/07/21 01:33:56
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Space Wolf short story, takes place just before Prospero. Space Wolves fight a very clearly described Kabal of Dark Eldar raiders who had been terrorizing a planet for over a century.
Fulgrim. Howling Banshees. Avatar of Khaine. Wraithlord. Eldrad.
Numerous novels. Eldrad fighting a shadow war against the Cabal, trying to prevent the turn of events that ended up coming around.
Angel Exterminatus. Iron Warriors and Emperors Children land on an Eldar planet within the Eye of Terror (so this place was built before the Fall). Thousands of wraith guard, lords, and titans on the planet.
That's all the Eldar references that I've read of so far, but I know there are others. Ferrus Manus had a pretty big encounter with them as well, a good amount of time before the Heresy.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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2017/07/21 08:46:10
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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djones520 wrote:Space Wolf short story, takes place just before Prospero. Space Wolves fight a very clearly described Kabal of Dark Eldar raiders who had been terrorizing a planet for over a century.
Fulgrim. Howling Banshees. Avatar of Khaine. Wraithlord. Eldrad.
Numerous novels. Eldrad fighting a shadow war against the Cabal, trying to prevent the turn of events that ended up coming around.
Angel Exterminatus. Iron Warriors and Emperors Children land on an Eldar planet within the Eye of Terror (so this place was built before the Fall). Thousands of wraith guard, lords, and titans on the planet.
That's all the Eldar references that I've read of so far, but I know there are others. Ferrus Manus had a pretty big encounter with them as well, a good amount of time before the Heresy.
Yeah it's stuff like this that makes me think that the Horus Heresy writers put the literal minimum possible effort into Eldar for their books. Fantastic amount of imagination put into the Legions, but sweet FA for Eldar. They've literally (to the point of even using the same character) ported Eldar directly from 40k, presumably because they couldn't be bothered (or, more fairly, didn't have time) to put a good amount of thought into what directly post-Fall Eldar would have been like.
It's as if the writers wanted some Ultramarines, looked at the Ultramarines codex and thought 'hey, that Marneus Calgar guy looks sweet. Lets sandwich him in!'. It's just a poor excuse for worldbuilding. For truly good worldbuilding, you take what the environment around a group looks like, and then think 'right, how would what's happening at the moment shape their culture', which is what I've tried to do above.
Wraith units I can get. Perhaps they were around prior to the Fall, although I've explained above why I think that's unlikely (lack of Spirit Stones so they'd be reserved for keeping Eldar alive, and probably no Infinity Circuit to draw souls from). I still think it displays a lack of knowledge, but that knowledge is a little esoteric so fair enough. I get that someone interested in Marines won't know all the minutiae of Eldar background, but it'd be worth consulting with someone who does.
Howling Banshees again is forgivable as there's no set date for the spread of Aspect Warriors. However, we can infer that it is highly unlikely Aspect Warriors were on Craftworlds during the Heresy. Originally, Asurmen taught his pupils on Asur. It was only when Arhra destroyed Asur that the Phoenix Lords spread out to the craftworlds to spread their teachings. So, since the Fall (when the Great Crusade started) we have a very short time (speaking in Eldar terms) for all of that to go down before the Phoenix Lords even start teaching on Craftworlds.
Dark Eldar raiding is absolutely fine. I expect the decadent and cruel Eldar Empire quite frequently raided the lesser races for sh*ts and giggles. Specifically calling them Kabals is a terrible idea as we actually have a solid date for when Kabals actually became a thing: sometime in M32. Over 1000 years after the Great Crusade.
So, just not that much thought put into them, which is absolutely fine in a novel primarily about Marines, but it does miss an opportunity to do something more interesting (and realistic and imaginative) with Eldar.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 08:53:51
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2017/07/21 09:43:34
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Regular Dakkanaut
UK
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"Pre-heresy" Wraith units could be handwaved as the last remnants of the old battle robots the pre-Fall Empire used for war (or even re-purposed servant models). If they're in the Eye of Terror, then they're either being robots or the modern concept of a Wraith frankly doesn't matter; they could well be daemon powered (caveat: I have not read that story in question). Eldrad's, when meeting Fulgrim, could well be an initial attempt at 'wraiths', and so used as a bodyguard capable of taking on (or at least acting as a road-block to) that potentially dangerous liaison.
Hmm, in fact, who's to say that modern Wraiths aren't those pre-Fall units - or the chassis, at least, just with a different operating system..?
One thing I've realised looking up things to contribute to this thread is really how little is 'concrete' in the Eldar timeline, certainly compared to the Imperium. Just about the only fixed date is the Fall. The Phoenix Lord books might change that, though.
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2017/07/21 09:47:33
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The same slapdash/lack of effort problem exists with Forgeworld when it comes to Eldar rules design. Often they get lackluster rules or with gaping loopholes on how they interact with the mainstream rules because clearly they were only thinking about Imperial/Chaos stuff when they wrote the main rules. A few other times, they get rules that in hindsight turn out to be overpowered again precisely because no one was familiar enough with Eldar to spot the problem.
Then there is how FW releases new special rules and weapon types for all their various Imperial/Chaos releases, but Eldar releases tend to fall into more of the same, just at different sizes. Lasers, monofilaments, distortion weapons, etc... While arguably this might be a theme of the Eldar, how their technology falls into certain themes and then get reiterated, it does mean that the greater number of diverse weapon types (and special rules) for the Imperials can lead to unforeseen rules interactions or overpowered combinations.
I mean I even found that big Vect continuity flaw in the Jain Zar novel which I pointed out to Gav Thorpe on his website. Namely that the Jain Zar novel "current" events could not have taken place pre-Heresy due to Vect making reference to razing Shaa-dom (which dates to late M37). I admit I was disappointed that instead of a simple "Oops, I goofed", he tried to cover it up by claiming Vect was referring to a partial razing of Shaa-dom before M37. However even that does not make it possible for it to occur pre-Heresy, as Vect was not in control of Commorragh pre-Heresy, while he is explicitly shown to be in the novel.
I swear I do better at keeping track of GW's timelines than GW.
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2017/07/21 09:58:58
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
UK, Midlands
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Can they live that long just fine? The Dark Eldar can, but they artificially prolong their lives through a sort of soul-vampirism. I can't think of anyone else who is that old naturally. The other thing that makes no sense if Eldrad lives that long anyway is the Dome of Crystal Seers. The fluff is that as powerful seers age, their bodies begin to crystalise as some sort of reaction to the psychic power flowing through them. Each craftworld has a dome where these ancient seers retire and eventually meld entirely with the wraithbone conduits of the infinity circuit. If Eldrad is 10,000+ years old with no sign of crystalisation, just how long would Eldar have to live to become entirely crystalline?
Eldrad has always been really old in the fluff and he has begun to crystallize, it's why he's the only farseer with T4. I remember thinking Eldrad was around during the Heresy before reading the novels so it's probably in one of the old codexes.
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2017/07/21 10:05:28
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Can they live that long just fine? The Dark Eldar can, but they artificially prolong their lives through a sort of soul-vampirism. I can't think of anyone else who is that old naturally. The other thing that makes no sense if Eldrad lives that long anyway is the Dome of Crystal Seers. The fluff is that as powerful seers age, their bodies begin to crystalise as some sort of reaction to the psychic power flowing through them. Each craftworld has a dome where these ancient seers retire and eventually meld entirely with the wraithbone conduits of the infinity circuit. If Eldrad is 10,000+ years old with no sign of crystalisation, just how long would Eldar have to live to become entirely crystalline?
Eldrad has always been really old in the fluff and he has begun to crystallize, it's why he's the only farseer with T4. I remember thinking Eldrad was around during the Heresy before reading the novels so it's probably in one of the old codexes.
Eldrad being Heresy old dates from after 3rd edition when writers at GW took the 3rd edition Codex Eldar Ranger's hyperbolic rambling to be literal. Given that Eldar lifespans were stated to be over 1,000 years in the 2nd edition Codex, suddenly having an individual about 10x the normal Eldar lifespan is tantamount to claiming there is a human who is 700 years old. The Eldar Ranger was lying, making ridiculous claims, and trying to insult his interrogator, but then after 3rd edition, someone at GW went and made everything he said literally true.
And yes, I have heard the argument that "over 1,000 years" doesn't preclude 10,000 years, however why bother to say 1,000 if you really mean 10,000? They could have just as easily said Eldar live for over 2,000 years, or up to 10,000 years. Clearly the implication of the 2nd edition Codex was that Eldar live for over 1,000 years but under 2,000.
It is a prime example of someone at GW and/or BL screwing things up due to not being familiar with the Eldar background, and not bothering to do their research into their own IP. They decided they wanted an Eldar figure in the Heresy era, but clearly didn't know much about Eldar background so just rammed in Eldrad in order to get some name recognition. Now years afterwards, we are left dealing with the background and continuity fallout.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 10:21:06
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2017/07/21 10:23:10
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Pilum wrote:"Pre-heresy" Wraith units could be handwaved as the last remnants of the old battle robots the pre-Fall Empire used for war (or even re-purposed servant models). If they're in the Eye of Terror, then they're either being robots or the modern concept of a Wraith frankly doesn't matter; they could well be daemon powered (caveat: I have not read that story in question). Eldrad's, when meeting Fulgrim, could well be an initial attempt at 'wraiths', and so used as a bodyguard capable of taking on (or at least acting as a road-block to) that potentially dangerous liaison.
Hmm, in fact, who's to say that modern Wraiths aren't those pre-Fall units - or the chassis, at least, just with a different operating system..?
One thing I've realised looking up things to contribute to this thread is really how little is 'concrete' in the Eldar timeline, certainly compared to the Imperium. Just about the only fixed date is the Fall. The Phoenix Lord books might change that, though.
Yeah absolutely. That does fit with my headcanon that Wraith units are the repurposed chassis' of pre-Fall war constructs, which makes all sorts of sense. The Eldar of today haven't really invented much, and have mostly repurposed civilian gear. In that respect, they're closer to the Imperium than you think, scratching a survival from the ashes of their glorious technological past. The way I see it, it goes like this:
1. The Eldar armies are primarily wraith-chassis, animated by some sort of amalgamation/combination/grey area of soul/sentience/AI/daemon. One of the key themes of the eldar is that, as far as they're concerned nature, technology and psychic warpstuff are largely indistinguishable from each other. Rather than true machine AIs, they probably had something more akin to conjured souls piloting their warmachines.
2. The Fall happened, and all of their psychic might became a hell of a lot more risky to use. Fettered in their ability to use their most powerful technology, these psychomatons fall into disuse as the Eldar can no longer use the powers to animate them.
3. Sometime after the invention of the Infinity Circuit and discovery of soulstones, some (heretical) bright spark thinks of trying to stuff an Eldar soul into one of these old warmachines, and lo and behold it works! Wraith units as we know them today are born.
Now, that's mostly conjecture based on what we know about how Eldar tech works, and what they were like pre-Fall. It does fit nicely though. I suppose that the armies that Fulgrim found in the Eye could have been a holdover from those times. If he fought them and they fought back, it might have been that it took a while for their conjured-soul-AI-daemons to dissipate or get swallowed by Slaanesh, meaning they'd still be active. I do know that the Wraithlord that accompanied Eldrad was an Eldar soul, which I believe is an oversight even if we believe the above is true.
Oh, and as an aside, if the Eldar Empire's army was entirely comprised of wraith units then no wonder they were the dominant power at the time. Their small-arms weapons were D-Weapons. Terrifying!
Also, I do like how little of the Eldar timeline is concrete. It fits perfectly with the way that their brains and culture is wired. Basically, the Eldar think they're still living through their mythic times. Their entire history isn't a written record like humanity's, but a series of oral epics and songs. As such, they'd have about as good a grasp on their own timeline as we do of mythological Greece (that is to say, not a great deal).
Iracundus wrote:The same slapdash/lack of effort problem exists with Forgeworld when it comes to Eldar rules design. Often they get lackluster rules or with gaping loopholes on how they interact with the mainstream rules because clearly they were only thinking about Imperial/Chaos stuff when they wrote the main rules. A few other times, they get rules that in hindsight turn out to be overpowered again precisely because no one was familiar enough with Eldar to spot the problem.
Then there is how FW releases new special rules and weapon types for all their various Imperial/Chaos releases, but Eldar releases tend to fall into more of the same, just at different sizes. Lasers, monofilaments, distortion weapons, etc... While arguably this might be a theme of the Eldar, how their technology falls into certain themes and then get reiterated, it does mean that the greater number of diverse weapon types (and special rules) for the Imperials can lead to unforeseen rules interactions or overpowered combinations.
I mean I even found that big Vect continuity flaw in the Jain Zar novel which I pointed out to Gav Thorpe on his website. Namely that the Jain Zar novel "current" events could not have taken place pre-Heresy due to Vect making reference to razing Shaa-dom (which dates to late M37). I admit I was disappointed that instead of a simple "Oops, I goofed", he tried to cover it up by claiming Vect was referring to a partial razing of Shaa-dom before M37. However even that does not make it possible for it to occur pre-Heresy, as Vect was not in control of Commorragh pre-Heresy, while he is explicitly shown to be in the novel.
I swear I do better at keeping track of GW's timelines than GW.
Aww man. Gav Thorpe's one of the people I generally trust to do Eldar justice. Like yourself, my interpretation of what the Eldar are like does differ from his (I prefer mine a lot more grimdark and gritty than the relatively nice post-scarcity society on the Path novels), although he does put a great deal of thought into how the Eldar work as a culture. I expect he did goof, everyone does every now and again. Perhaps he was just a little defensive about it, which is fair enough.
We should offer our services as Eldar consultants! Personally, I'd be happy to do that for free maybe throw in a box of plastic Aspect Warriors if and when they come out
I must admit, it was Forge World who came out with one of the best Eldar-related things in recent years. The 7th Eldar Corsairs were truly beautiful. Fun, fluffy and not overpowered. A real masterstroke. They managed to give great character with the Corsair perils chart, their movement shenanigans, terrible leadership and a stunningly characterful and fun HQ choice. It was like GS Cults, but for Eldar. Brilliant. Why they've got rid of every ounce of character and greatness that army had for 8th I have no idea. Hopefully it's so they can release it all again with some models alongside... Automatically Appended Next Post: Iracundus wrote:Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Can they live that long just fine? The Dark Eldar can, but they artificially prolong their lives through a sort of soul-vampirism. I can't think of anyone else who is that old naturally. The other thing that makes no sense if Eldrad lives that long anyway is the Dome of Crystal Seers. The fluff is that as powerful seers age, their bodies begin to crystalise as some sort of reaction to the psychic power flowing through them. Each craftworld has a dome where these ancient seers retire and eventually meld entirely with the wraithbone conduits of the infinity circuit. If Eldrad is 10,000+ years old with no sign of crystalisation, just how long would Eldar have to live to become entirely crystalline?
Eldrad has always been really old in the fluff and he has begun to crystallize, it's why he's the only farseer with T4. I remember thinking Eldrad was around during the Heresy before reading the novels so it's probably in one of the old codexes.
Eldrad being Heresy old dates from after 3rd edition when writers at GW took the 3rd edition Codex Eldar Ranger's hyperbolic rambling to be literal. Given that Eldar lifespans were stated to be over 1,000 years in the 2nd edition Codex, suddenly having an individual about 10x the normal Eldar lifespan is tantamount to claiming there is a human who is 700 years old. The Eldar Ranger was lying, making ridiculous claims, and trying to insult his interrogator, but then after 3rd edition, someone at GW went and made everything he said literally true.
And yes, I have heard the argument that "over 1,000 years" doesn't preclude 10,000 years, however why bother to say 1,000 if you really mean 10,000? They could have just as easily said Eldar live for over 2,000 years, or up to 10,000 years. Clearly the implication of the 2nd edition Codex was that Eldar live for over 1,000 years but under 2,000.
It is a prime example of someone at GW and/or BL screwing things up due to not being familiar with the Eldar background, and not bothering to do their research into their own IP. They decided they wanted an Eldar figure in the Heresy era, but clearly didn't know much about Eldar background so just rammed in Eldrad in order to get some name recognition. Now years afterwards, we are left dealing with the background and continuity fallout.
This.
It's the whole 'Word Bearers stating that the lost legions were absorbed by the Ultramarines' thing again. It's a subtlety that was not meant to be taken literally, and was meant to be read in the context that bitter Chaos Space Marines and tricksy captured Eldar aren't to be trusted. Then, someone reads it and hamfistedly assumes it's gospel and starts writing about it as if it were true.
I do, however, love the idea that Eldrad is beginning to crystallise, hence his T4. That's a brilliant bit of headcanon just that that's occurring at 1000-2000 years of age, rather than an order of magnitude more than that. As Iracundus said, it's like a human living to 700. It's like a goldfish living to 100.
There are headcanony arguments you can make about Eldar who realise their psychic potential living extended lifespans, but that still doesn't fit with all the other stuff around it. Why aren't there a whole host of Eldar seers who are that old? Why is Vect deemed to be special in his longevity when it's actually pretty easy for Eldar to live that long if they just use their psychic abilities?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 10:32:37
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2017/07/21 10:40:38
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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Iracundus wrote:
And yes, I have heard the argument that "over 1,000 years" doesn't preclude 10,000 years, however why bother to say 1,000 if you really mean 10,000? They could have just as easily said Eldar live for over 2,000 years, or up to 10,000 years. Clearly the implication of the 2nd edition Codex was that Eldar live for over 1,000 years but under 2,000.
There is GW precedent for multiple brackets of lifespans.
Squats.
The average squat lived to 300. But if you were part of the group that lived to see 400, odds are you had a good chance to see 800 as well. And some individuals had ages that could only be guessed at. Living Ancestors.
The concept of a small fraction of a population that lives forever is not a new one. It crops up in a lot of places.
I do prefer the idea that Eldrad is the Phoenix Lord equivalent of the seers. It fits with the overall structure. Warlocks are your aspect warrior equivalent. It’s a path, and you can still step off. Farseers are the exarchs; they have been trapped on the path of the seer. But gotten really good at it. Eldrad is the “perfect” seer, the idealized exemplar of the path.
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2017/07/21 10:55:43
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Nevelon wrote:Iracundus wrote:
And yes, I have heard the argument that "over 1,000 years" doesn't preclude 10,000 years, however why bother to say 1,000 if you really mean 10,000? They could have just as easily said Eldar live for over 2,000 years, or up to 10,000 years. Clearly the implication of the 2nd edition Codex was that Eldar live for over 1,000 years but under 2,000.
There is GW precedent for multiple brackets of lifespans.
Squats.
The average squat lived to 300. But if you were part of the group that lived to see 400, odds are you had a good chance to see 800 as well. And some individuals had ages that could only be guessed at. Living Ancestors.
The concept of a small fraction of a population that lives forever is not a new one. It crops up in a lot of places.
I do prefer the idea that Eldrad is the Phoenix Lord equivalent of the seers. It fits with the overall structure. Warlocks are your aspect warrior equivalent. It’s a path, and you can still step off. Farseers are the exarchs; they have been trapped on the path of the seer. But gotten really good at it. Eldrad is the “perfect” seer, the idealized exemplar of the path.
Agreed. There's also massive inconsistency with Tau lifespans. Perhaps they just can't be bothered to make up new characters for short-lived species...
Still doesn't answer why there aren't more seers who are as old as Eldrad though so I'm still inclined to say it's an inconsistency borne of a misreading of an old piece of fluff.
I do like the idea of Eldrad being a phoenix-lord equivalent. Presumably the technology used by the phoenix lords to over-ride the next person who dons the suit with their personality isn't restricted to just them. Exarch suits do it too. Why not a Farseer's rune armour or ghosthelm? There is a similar issue with a lack of other exarch-seers, but it's preferable to 'oh yeah, Eldrad's just lived that long because reasons'. At least there's precedent in Exarchs and other Phoenix Lords.
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2017/07/21 11:45:09
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Long lived Tau don't exist, the real heroes were replaced by immortal drones.
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2017/07/21 11:45:25
Subject: Re:Eldar in 30k
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
UK, Midlands
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I do, however, love the idea that Eldrad is beginning to crystallise, hence his T4. That's a brilliant bit of headcanon just that that's occurring at 1000-2000 years of age, rather than an order of magnitude more than that.
The T4 from being partially crystallized is not head-cannon, it's definitely written in a codex somewhere. I think said codex makes the point that he should have settled down and become a tree but refused too. Eldrad is a very special chap so would be an exception to the norm for life spans.
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2017/07/21 11:53:50
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Interesting discussion!
Is it really the case that the fall and the start of the Great Crusade are that close?
I thought the actual fall coincided more with the start of the Age of Strife / "Old Night", rather than the end - or rather that it was an drawn-out process as She Who Thirsts came into being bacross a few millenia, which would give time for first exodites, then Craftworlders to split off from the "mainstream" Eldar.
Though I will admit I'm probably not as broadly read as I should be in this matter...
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2017/07/21 12:01:28
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
UK, Midlands
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I think the Fall was what cleared the warp storms and allowed the great crusade to happen.
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2017/07/21 12:17:31
Subject: Eldar in 30k
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Fixture of Dakka
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It was but it wasn't like the Storms cleared and the Crusade immediately started.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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