Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why on gods green earth did they choose to do this? These big point flying figures cost more than a unit of most troops, yet only has a 50/50 chance to even hit! Sure, they have the option to take a baleflamer...But then why even bother giving a choice? It just seems silly to even give the option of the gatling gun if it's going to be just by default numbers so much worse.

Well they are zooming around at extremely high speeds

It also doesn't have Supersonic - which, while that means it doesn't get Hard to Hit it also doesn't have to move... and isn't restricted to a minimum move distance and turn angle. Can also charge (though also, in turn, be charged) freely.

So can choose to stay still and shoot at BS4+... or can make up to 30" moves without turn/angle restrictions (free 360 degree movement).

Plus, being Fly w/the special rule for its claws means you could charge another Flier and hit it at WS3+. Not earth shattering, but potentially a beneficial option at times.

Because if you look at the Defiler, Maulerfiend, and Forgefiend, this is what they did to replace the WS3/BS3 thing. At least Daemonforge is only 1 CP and rerolls all hits and wounding for a phase.

There are much worse flyers out there....

The Heldrake is still quite a competitive model. Nevertheless I agree that you will not often see it with a gatling gun. Seems like a ridiculous choice (competitively speaking)... Especially as you can re-roll the flamer hits with CP. and you cannot use CP for the gatling to get re-roll hits and wounds...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Because if you look at the Defiler, Maulerfiend, and Forgefiend, this is what they did to replace the WS3/BS3 thing. At least Daemonforge is only 1 CP and rerolls all hits and wounding for a phase.

Yep. All Daemonic Vehicles were BS3 before, which translated to the new system is BS4+

Pretty standard for Daemon Vehicles

Daemonic vehicles in 7th had -1 BS.

Which translates to 4+ now.

Besides, it was only ever seen with the Baleflamer.

Because geederps.

It's rubbish, you'd never take the hades.

The baleflamer OTOH is savage.

Why would it get a BS boost with the conversion to the new edition? Because of the -1 for moving? Lots of other flyers didn't.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Why would it get a BS boost with the conversion to the new edition? Because of the -1 for moving? Lots of other flyers didn't.

To make the option of weaponry something to consider? Now it is just Heldrake? autotake baleflamer (like it was last edition really). You wonder why they even bother giving the other option...

It's a Daemon bound inside a mechanical shell. It's not supposed to have super acute senses. It's also more prone to getting into melee, so BS is a secondary consideration, both in the rules and the fluff.

The real question is why isn't the points difference between the Baleflamer and the Hades a good deal greater? There should be a good 25+ pts difference there to make the Hades appealing

Hades should just be t-l.

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Why would it get a BS boost with the conversion to the new edition? Because of the -1 for moving? Lots of other flyers didn't.

To make the option of weaponry something to consider? Now it is just Heldrake? autotake baleflamer (like it was last edition really). You wonder why they even bother giving the other option...

The question still stands - Lots of other BS 3 / 4+ flyers and they don't even get the option a of an auto hit weapon. Some don't even have hover mode so can't even choose to not move.

Why is hitting on a 5+ so bad for the heldrake that it should get a boost?

Perhaps they should just make the baleflamer more expensive so that you have to consider more which to take?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Why would it get a BS boost with the conversion to the new edition? Because of the -1 for moving? Lots of other flyers didn't.

To make the option of weaponry something to consider? Now it is just Heldrake? autotake baleflamer (like it was last edition really). You wonder why they even bother giving the other option...

The question still stands - Lots of other BS 3 / 4+ flyers and they don't even get the option a of an auto hit weapon. Some don't even have hover mode so can't even choose to not move.

Why is hitting on a 5+ so bad for the heldrake that it should get a boost?

Perhaps they should just make the baleflamer more expensive so that you have to consider more which to take?

If I recall correctly, they actually lowered the price of the baleflamer in the new codex. Baleflamer Og hotness. (Pun intended.)

Yea, BS4+ on a flyer with heavy weapons is pretty bad. This is why I laugh at all Imperial flyers now...

Well, except that one with the twin punishers...

The baleflamer was the only correct choice before, the baleflamer is the only correct choice now. Strange to only be upset about this now.

This is the real reason Heldrakes are so mad.

The atrophied astartes pilot trapped in the heart of the daemon machine is just screaming 'Why won't you let me do the aiming? You are such a bad shot, stupid daemon spirit!'.

Um maybe because a unit that can move 30" and fly over other screening units before opening up with pin point accurate mini guns then charge would of been a bit op. Only smurfs get something that good

Arachnofiend wrote:
The baleflamer was the only correct choice before, the baleflamer is the only correct choice now. Strange to only be upset about this now.

I'm upset about this now because I started playing now

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 minisnatcher wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Why would it get a BS boost with the conversion to the new edition? Because of the -1 for moving? Lots of other flyers didn't.

To make the option of weaponry something to consider? Now it is just Heldrake? autotake baleflamer (like it was last edition really). You wonder why they even bother giving the other option...

The question still stands - Lots of other BS 3 / 4+ flyers and they don't even get the option a of an auto hit weapon. Some don't even have hover mode so can't even choose to not move.

Why is hitting on a 5+ so bad for the heldrake that it should get a boost?

Perhaps they should just make the baleflamer more expensive so that you have to consider more which to take?

Ok, I'll make the point now since so many people don't seem to be getting it. The problem is the Hades Autocannon is an absolute trash option compared to the baleflamer. I don't give a feth about everyones flyers BS conversion, the question I want to ask is how GW can look at two options that are so incredibly, blatantly unbalanced relative to each other and think that everything is fine? I can understand a lot of unbalance comes from things that are hard to judge before the game comes out like points costs or certain combinations but when someone who has played chaos looks at the two options are can see how off the stats are immediately sometimes I wonder how much work GW really puts into these coedxs before releasing them. And what makes it worse? Baleflamer being an auto-take last edition should have made them think to themselves, "Maybe we should fix that this edition" not ignore it even harder.