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Hi all I need some advice on my DE army on what to get, what to equip models with and such.
What I have is.

Archon x3
One with Huskblade and splinter pistol, One with agoniser and splinter pistol, one converted from a female warrior with blaster pistol and agoniser.

Succubus x1

Sslyth x2

Wych's x2

Warriors x5
four units have blaster and splinter cannon while the last Unit has all the shredders and dark lances.

Reavers x9
3 blasters for the whole unit of 9

Hellions x10

Scourges x4
each unit has Blaster, Splinter cannon and Haywire blaster(were made before 8th)

Incubi x1

Raiders x3
two with dark lances and one with disintegrater

Venoms x4
Each having two splinter cannons

Ravagers x2
all dark lances

Voidraven bomber

Talos x1

beast pack? mandrakes?

I'd look at replacing the Splinter Pistols with Blast Pistols on the Archons. For the points, it's well worth it.

I'd get rid of any Shredders you have. They look good on first glance, but their damage output is not nearly worth their points.

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace one of the Dark Lances on each of the Ravagers with a Disintegrater. It helps balance the Ravagers so they wouldn't be practically useless if you go against a horde-style army or if they get DS on.

Otherwise, looks good.

wait...i'm confused about your quantities.

9x reavers means, I assume, 9 reavers.

but surely 2x wyches means 2 squads of 10? so 20?

Does 4x scourges mean 20, with 4x blasters, 4x haywires, 4x SCs and 8x carbines?

tbh, everything you have looks solid. The only things you could add would maybe be some Mandrakes, or haemonculus units. For me, the biggest step-up in my dark eldar game in 8th has been learning that 2x 5 man squads in 1 raider performs wayyyyy more effectively than 1x 10 man squad. I mix and match my melee between 1 five-man wych squad and 1 five-man squad of something intended to do the actual killing (Mandrakes or Wracks usually) and I run warriors as 2x 5-man with a blast pistol/agnoizer and blaster special weapon in each squad, which means I get 4x blaster shots coming out of each raider.


Best in show weapons:

-Blaster, pretty much never bad on any infantry. IMO the best in show for Trueborn, warriors, archons, reavers. Only exception is maybe Scourges, who are pretty good lance jockeys since they can have all 4. You might consider heat lances on Reavers for the IC killing benefits, but blasters are better all around.

-Blast Pistol, take it always. 100% worth the points in 8th.

-If you're a Haemy and you know it take a whip. Electrocorrosive Whip is better than everything in the haemy weapon pool, and is worth on every haemy and acothyst in the melee slot.

-Hexrifle is also almost always worth the points. One of the best strengths we have with our fast bikes and pointy vehicles is the ability to hop onto and pop exposed independent characters, and if you're running haemonculus stuff, you should pump a couple shots per turn into a character you'd like to eventually deliver a sneaky coup-de-grace.

-Ossefactor > liquifier always. No change here from 7th, if you have wracks, 1 in 5 should pack the bonesplodinator 5000.

-Hydra gauntlets are always the best wych weapon, just by simple math.

-Agonizers > power swords. I'm torn on huskblades because the extra damage is very nice, but thats the only instance where the agonizer has competition.

Also Hellions are in a pretty bad spot for 8th edition... as with pretty much every other edition. They have no AP value on their melee, they can't deepstrike, and their ranged is ok at best. There's really nothing they do that someone else doesn't do better and they aren't a jack-of-all trades where they'd still be useful.

If you were determined, like 100% determined to run Hellions, how would you run them?

Reavers just do pretty much everything better. The only thing that Hellions have over Reavers is the 2 damage on melee. Reavers have more movement, higher toughtness and wounds, better weapon selection, AP values on the base melee attacks, and a better save. 2 damage on melee seems great, but even basic marines save that on a 3+ when there's no AP value.

You can technically get a few more attacks off from a squad of 5 Hellions vs a squad of 3 Reavers, but they just can't survive long enough to do anything with a lower toughness, higher armor save, no invul, and no Deepstrike capability.

I'm so happy this has come up.

Since 8th dropped I have only been playing Dark Eldar, and in every single one of my games, I have run hellions.
Most lists I ran with a squad of 20. The last few games I tried splitting them into two two squads of ten.
I'm still unsure which method is best, but I'm kind of leaning towards the giant squad of 20.

If running one big squad, I give them +1 Toughness because they cant deepstrike and are almost always targeted first.
When I ran 2 squads, I gave one +1T and the other +1A. I think +1 attack is pointless on them though and would instead opt for +2 movement next time.

They are great against transports, if they can surround it and prevent people from disembarking. Also good to slingshot surviving members onto vehicles in the backfield, because vehicles cant shoot if they are in close combat and if they fallback, they still cant shoot. The ability to fallback and still charge is what allows this.

Other than as mentioned above, they are ALWAYS the first units to be destroyed. I mean ALWAYS. so while they do hit on 2s on turn 3. I've only seen that happen once.

I will not stop using them, I love the model, love the aesthetic they have and have seen them bring down flyers and chimeras and tie-up predators and leman russes from shooting.

For surrounding vehicles, you can still disembark from a vehicle while surrounded as long as any part of the disembarking models are within 3 inches of the vehicle and more than 1" away from enemy models. This means if you are surrounding a vehicle and have units completely around it in a single row, you can't stop enemies from disembarking unless you have units far enough away from the vehicle. Merely surrounding the vehicle doesn't stop disembarking anymore (unless this has been FAQ'd and I somehow missed it).

Also, Hellions are fairly pricey to use as cannon fodder. They are I believe at 17 points a model. So a group of 20 Hellions would be 340 points base with no other upgrades. That's a lot of points to invest in at best a 4T 5+ save unit with no invul. Reavers can fit in 11 models in the same point allotment, saving 10 points for play, giving more wounds, and allowing a 5T 4+ save. If you are looking at drawing fire away from other units, this is a better choice since no one will use a high wound weapon to target a Hellion. At 5T, they are substantially more resilient to small arms fire since it bumps a bolter wound to 5+ instead of 4+.

People can run what they want, but I just see Reavers being a much better investment than Hellions until the codex comes out.

Hoodwink wrote:
For surrounding vehicles, you can still disembark from a vehicle while surrounded as long as any part of the disembarking models are within 3 inches of the vehicle and more than 1" away from enemy models. This means if you are surrounding a vehicle and have units completely around it in a single row, you can't stop enemies from disembarking unless you have units far enough away from the vehicle. Merely surrounding the vehicle doesn't stop disembarking anymore (unless this has been FAQ'd and I somehow missed it)..

Well you dont have to be base to base anymore. So a single file line with an inch between the model means that they cant place anywhere. 1inch gap, 1inch+ model means they would have to place effectively 4 inches away from the vehicle hull. But again, you have to wreck the vehicle for this to happen.

 Icculus wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
For surrounding vehicles, you can still disembark from a vehicle while surrounded as long as any part of the disembarking models are within 3 inches of the vehicle and more than 1" away from enemy models. This means if you are surrounding a vehicle and have units completely around it in a single row, you can't stop enemies from disembarking unless you have units far enough away from the vehicle. Merely surrounding the vehicle doesn't stop disembarking anymore (unless this has been FAQ'd and I somehow missed it)..

Well you dont have to be base to base anymore. So a single file line with an inch between the model means that they cant place anywhere. 1inch gap, 1inch+ model means they would have to place effectively 4 inches away from the vehicle hull. But again, you have to wreck the vehicle for this to happen.

Units disembarking need to be "within 3 inches" and not "wholly within 3 inches" which is a big difference. In order to be in CQC, you have to be within 1 inch of the target vehicle. So if a model is 1 inch across on the base, there's no way a single model can both be in CQC with the vehicle and block disembarking. If the base is wider than 1 inch, yes. I'm not sure about how wide bases are though.

Interesting, will have to come down to number of models, and exact measurements.

But back to how to use them. I think they would be better hiding them for the first turn or two, and then using them as a counter attack.

Also, in general Dark Lances and Blasters are awesome. I dont know if splinter cannons on warriors are worth it anymore. Now that you can split fire the dark lance, I have been putting a dark lance in all my warrior squads and never regretted it.

I'd say Splinter Cannons are definitely worth it if you go the route of mathing someone to death.

The issue with Dark Lances on infantry is they are Heavy so you hit on a 4+ if you move. Dark Eldar are not known for sitting still and shooting someone to death. Moving with a Splinter Cannon still gives 3 shots at a 3+ to hit. Dark Lance ends up being a 50/50 shot at even hitting someone. When going against single wound models, it doesn't matter if you have 6 damage, you still kill a single model per shot at best.

Biadetic wrote:
If you were determined, like 100% determined to run Hellions, how would you run them?

Could field them as counts-as Reavers

GhostRecon wrote:

Biadetic wrote:
If you were determined, like 100% determined to run Hellions, how would you run them?

Could field them as counts-as Reavers

Since reading this thread I've been trying to think of viable uses for hellions. They're a weird unit. With damage 2 you'd think that they're good for targeting elite infantry, but with no ap anything MEQ or better is going to weather their attacks no problem and then paste them.

They do okay against GEQ but their 2 damage is wasted most if the time, and they aren't very cost effective.

So maybe character assassinations, like say commissars? If you take a min squad they can do the job fairly reliably, but they're so fragile that it's a total coin-flip on whether they survive getting into melee before being shot off the board.

Being 17ppm is what really kills them for me. Way too expensive for what they do.

All they need is an AP modifier. I'd like to see something like a -2AP. They'd be similar to the Incubus, but still different. An Incubus has less mobility but a 3+ save. Incubus would have 1 better AP value but 1 less damage.

Hellions need an identity on what they are supposed to be used for. They really aren't great at anything. But they're also too wonky with their 0AP on range and melee to be of a reliable use. Maybe give them Deep Strike capabilities. Buff the melee. Something so they have a use where they are better than other options for that use.

Hoodwink wrote:
I'd say Splinter Cannons are definitely worth it if you go the route of mathing someone to death.

The issue with Dark Lances on infantry is they are Heavy so you hit on a 4+ if you move. Dark Eldar are not known for sitting still and shooting someone to death. Moving with a Splinter Cannon still gives 3 shots at a 3+ to hit. Dark Lance ends up being a 50/50 shot at even hitting someone. When going against single wound models, it doesn't matter if you have 6 damage, you still kill a single model per shot at best.

My point was that you wouldn't fire the dark lance at infantry. your splinter rifles would fire at infantry and your dark lance would take a shot at tau-level BS at a larger target. I agree, it would be silly to fire a dark lance at infantry.

@Icculus have you found it matters too much what you give your Helliarch? Or what is your preferred load-out?

Every time I've run hellions, they've either been rockstars or they've died to the first volley of shooting.

My last game, I ran them in a unit of 15 with a stunclaw helliarch, move drugs, and they won the game for me single handed. Turn 1 surrounded a twin asscannon razorback and destroyed it, removing a Deathwatch squad and a Libby (my method was to have 5 hellions in B2B combat, and then spread the others out so that theyre still within 1" of a model in combat so they can attack, but such that they still covered the 3" area around the vehicle. With the big bases the hellions have, wasn't that hard.)

then turn 2 they tied up a manticore and wyvern in melee, and kept them there until the end of the game. they also shot 2 guard squads to death with their 2 rounds of shooting.

The whole "reavers are 100% better" thing is quite puzzling to me, because I've been struggling to find any good use for Reavers. I've been running 3 and 6 reaver squads with grav talons, ago champ, and blaster per 3 and while they've done a couple good things (jumped over a unit and killed an archon one game, charged and killed a squad of Heavy Bolter retributors another) they've never been wildly successful like the hit or miss hellions have been, just slightly below average for the huge chunk of points they cost.

The biggest problem IMO is how crazy weak to plasma they are, and how little firepower you get for the points. Even with toughness drugs, which I always run on them, they fold the second anyone drops a couple rapid firing plasma shots into them.

If you position hellions such that they have something to shoot on their first turn, they will make back a good chunk of their points if they get to take a first turn. And since they're infantry, unlike Reavers they can have a cover save pretty easily upon deployment. Run them with move drugs if your opponent is making you come to them, offensive drugs if they're coming to you, or strength drugs if opponent is T4.

As a disclaimer, I don't think either of the two units is particularly optimal. comparing them pound for pound with stuff like Voidraven bombers, warriors, Ravagers, or wych/wrack combo melee units I'm pretty unimpressed. Just that I own a few hellions and they're now consistently in my list, and the many reavers I had from last edition I have a hard time finding a place for more than 6 in my lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hoodwink wrote:
I'd say Splinter Cannons are definitely worth it if you go the route of mathing someone to death.

The issue with Dark Lances on infantry is they are Heavy so you hit on a 4+ if you move. Dark Eldar are not known for sitting still and shooting someone to death. Moving with a Splinter Cannon still gives 3 shots at a 3+ to hit. Dark Lance ends up being a 50/50 shot at even hitting someone. When going against single wound models, it doesn't matter if you have 6 damage, you still kill a single model per shot at best.

Solution: don't do either (I mean, except for Scourges where you might as well take the dark lances.) Take 2 squads of 5 warriors and get 2 blast pistols and 2 blasters instead. Raiders move 14" and the passengers can still shoot now, blast pistols are easy to make happen.

What's the Wych/Wrack combo?

Usually for me 5 wyches with hydra/agonizer/blast pistol/phantasm, and 5 wracks with ossefactor/electrocorrosive whip/hexrifle.

Wracks can be substituted with incubi, but I mostly use wracks because they're a troop choice and cheaper. It's a pretty simple melee troop unit that wants to plow into the enemy with the raider and then charge with both squads. I use wracks over 5 more wyches because per model wracks do better damage and I find their incidental shooting to be more effective than the blast pistol and 3 splinter pistols that the wych squad has. I do keep one squad as wyches to get No Escape.

You can absolutely run it with 2 wych squads of that same composition and it works, I've just found the wracks to be a slight improvement. The problem with wyches is that all the benefits they provide over other options could really in theory be provided by just the hekatrix (phantasm Grenades, No Escape, a blast pistol shot, and 2 agonizer attacks), and the actual wyches in the squad contribute very little with their 2 S3 Ap- attacks.

supreme overlord wrote:beast pack? mandrakes?

I don't really know how to use any of the beasts for any set role, as for mandrakes I may get some at a later date after I've gotten in some games and learned more.

Hoodwink wrote:I'd look at replacing the Splinter Pistols with Blast Pistols on the Archons. For the points, it's well worth it.

I'd get rid of any Shredders you have. They look good on first glance, but their damage output is not nearly worth their points.

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to replace one of the Dark Lances on each of the Ravagers with a Disintegrater. It helps balance the Ravagers so they wouldn't be practically useless if you go against a horde-style army or if they get DS on.

Otherwise, looks good.

Okay I'll see if I have any to put on them, Shredders I thought they'd be good in a Venom with two splinter cannons, true born with two splinters cannons two shredders and splinter rifle against hordes but I've not played many games yet or used my dark eldar to try things out.
For Ravagers I was thinking they'd be anti-tank and the rest will deal with infantry but I haven't played many games and have played my Dark Eldar yet.

the_scotsman wrote:wait...i'm confused about your quantities.

9x reavers means, I assume, 9 reavers.

but surely 2x wyches means 2 squads of 10? so 20?

Does 4x scourges mean 20, with 4x blasters, 4x haywires, 4x SCs and 8x carbines?

tbh, everything you have looks solid. The only things you could add would maybe be some Mandrakes, or haemonculus units. For me, the biggest step-up in my dark eldar game in 8th has been learning that 2x 5 man squads in 1 raider performs wayyyyy more effectively than 1x 10 man squad. I mix and match my melee between 1 five-man wych squad and 1 five-man squad of something intended to do the actual killing (Mandrakes or Wracks usually) and I run warriors as 2x 5-man with a blast pistol/agnoizer and blaster special weapon in each squad, which means I get 4x blaster shots coming out of each raider.


Best in show weapons:

-Blaster, pretty much never bad on any infantry. IMO the best in show for Trueborn, warriors, archons, reavers. Only exception is maybe Scourges, who are pretty good lance jockeys since they can have all 4. You might consider heat lances on Reavers for the IC killing benefits, but blasters are better all around.

-Blast Pistol, take it always. 100% worth the points in 8th.

-If you're a Haemy and you know it take a whip. Electrocorrosive Whip is better than everything in the haemy weapon pool, and is worth on every haemy and acothyst in the melee slot.

-Hexrifle is also almost always worth the points. One of the best strengths we have with our fast bikes and pointy vehicles is the ability to hop onto and pop exposed independent characters, and if you're running haemonculus stuff, you should pump a couple shots per turn into a character you'd like to eventually deliver a sneaky coup-de-grace.

-Ossefactor > liquifier always. No change here from 7th, if you have wracks, 1 in 5 should pack the bonesplodinator 5000.

-Hydra gauntlets are always the best wych weapon, just by simple math.

-Agonizers > power swords. I'm torn on huskblades because the extra damage is very nice, but thats the only instance where the agonizer has competition.

Yep my units of warriors and wychs are units of 10 and scourge are 20 in total with 4 blasters, 4 splinter cannons, 4 haywire blasters and maybe 4 dark lances.

well I have no coven units aside from the talos and was thinking if I did get any I would try to get them all at once like a Haemenculucs, two units of 5 wracks, 3 grotetues and other talos.

For reavers I never thought of giving them heat lances only ever give them blasters for the 1 in 3 and seeing the talk about Hellions and your heat lances on reavers make me tempted to get a gangs set unless I need anything else instead for my dark eldar thats needed the most.

I'm definitely off the Trueborn Hype Train for 7th ed. Blasterborn still work but I've tried a Dakkaborn loadout exactly as you've described and it was just worthless compared to splinter scourges or a basic double-warriors raider. The major problem with Splinter Cannons in 8th is that 99% of the time you're giving up at least rapid fire 1 splinter for rapid fire 3 splinter. Sometimes the trade off is even worse, such as in the case of the Venom and Scourge, making Splinter Cannons IMO not worth it unless they get a price drop.

It's hard to overstate just how nice S8 Ap-4 multiple damage is in this edition. Nearly every vehicle is S7, nearly every special character is T3/T4 meaning strength 8 is a real sweet spot that almost never loses out effectiveness. The only niche our Heat Lance weapons have is vs T5 opponents, which are usually highly efficient to go after with our copious amounts of "always wounds on a 4+" weaponry.

You need to have a pretty compelling case for any time you want to swap out a blast shot for anything.

In terms of future purchases, Haemonculi and Wracks are good, but I've been disappointed by pain engines so far except for a lone Cronos in a very melee heavy list. Taloi just don't do enough damage with their piddly Ap-1 D2 weapon. I would only run Grotesques because you can get 3+Haemy in a raider, which is OK, because you're sinking so much into them I'd run all 4 models with liquifiers.

My optimal "I want to try running some haemonculus stuff" contingent would probably be 4x wracks squads as I described above in 2 raiders, then 3x liquifier grots and a hex/electro haemonculus in another raider. Liquifiers and Ossefactors sort out elite infantry pretty well, and as soon as the haemonculus pops out everything is T5 and very hard to shift.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm definitely off the Trueborn Hype Train for 7th ed. Blasterborn still work but I've tried a Dakkaborn loadout exactly as you've described and it was just worthless compared to splinter scourges or a basic double-warriors raider. The major problem with Splinter Cannons in 8th is that 99% of the time you're giving up at least rapid fire 1 splinter for rapid fire 3 splinter. Sometimes the trade off is even worse, such as in the case of the Venom and Scourge, making Splinter Cannons IMO not worth it unless they get a price drop.

It's hard to overstate just how nice S8 Ap-4 multiple damage is in this edition. Nearly every vehicle is S7, nearly every special character is T3/T4 meaning strength 8 is a real sweet spot that almost never loses out effectiveness. The only niche our Heat Lance weapons have is vs T5 opponents, which are usually highly efficient to go after with our copious amounts of "always wounds on a 4+" weaponry.

You need to have a pretty compelling case for any time you want to swap out a blast shot for anything.

In terms of future purchases, Haemonculi and Wracks are good, but I've been disappointed by pain engines so far except for a lone Cronos in a very melee heavy list. Taloi just don't do enough damage with their piddly Ap-1 D2 weapon. I would only run Grotesques because you can get 3+Haemy in a raider, which is OK, because you're sinking so much into them I'd run all 4 models with liquifiers.

My optimal "I want to try running some haemonculus stuff" contingent would probably be 4x wracks squads as I described above in 2 raiders, then 3x liquifier grots and a hex/electro haemonculus in another raider. Liquifiers and Ossefactors sort out elite infantry pretty well, and as soon as the haemonculus pops out everything is T5 and very hard to shift.

Well the trueborn in the venom was what I thought could be a good anti-infantry or Horde, to like drown them in saves as I figured if you get within 18 you can deal out 24 shoots with the splinter cannons and then 2-6 with the shredders, but yeah I'm still new and don't know any of this mathhammer stuff.

For blasters I will be always giving my warriors blasters but I do have shredders incase I wanna use them or need them along wit h darklances.

I will have to get myself some wracks and such then to try them out as you suggested.

Biadetic wrote:
@Icculus have you found it matters too much what you give your Helliarch? Or what is your preferred load-out?

I had been giving him the agoniser, but after finding that I like to tie up vehicles and assault fliers, I had started switching to the Stunclaw for much better effect.

 angelrei wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm definitely off the Trueborn Hype Train for 7th ed. Blasterborn still work but I've tried a Dakkaborn loadout exactly as you've described and it was just worthless compared to splinter scourges or a basic double-warriors raider. The major problem with Splinter Cannons in 8th is that 99% of the time you're giving up at least rapid fire 1 splinter for rapid fire 3 splinter. Sometimes the trade off is even worse, such as in the case of the Venom and Scourge, making Splinter Cannons IMO not worth it unless they get a price drop.

It's hard to overstate just how nice S8 Ap-4 multiple damage is in this edition. Nearly every vehicle is S7, nearly every special character is T3/T4 meaning strength 8 is a real sweet spot that almost never loses out effectiveness. The only niche our Heat Lance weapons have is vs T5 opponents, which are usually highly efficient to go after with our copious amounts of "always wounds on a 4+" weaponry.

You need to have a pretty compelling case for any time you want to swap out a blast shot for anything.

In terms of future purchases, Haemonculi and Wracks are good, but I've been disappointed by pain engines so far except for a lone Cronos in a very melee heavy list. Taloi just don't do enough damage with their piddly Ap-1 D2 weapon. I would only run Grotesques because you can get 3+Haemy in a raider, which is OK, because you're sinking so much into them I'd run all 4 models with liquifiers.

My optimal "I want to try running some haemonculus stuff" contingent would probably be 4x wracks squads as I described above in 2 raiders, then 3x liquifier grots and a hex/electro haemonculus in another raider. Liquifiers and Ossefactors sort out elite infantry pretty well, and as soon as the haemonculus pops out everything is T5 and very hard to shift.

Well the trueborn in the venom was what I thought could be a good anti-infantry or Horde, to like drown them in saves as I figured if you get within 18 you can deal out 24 shoots with the splinter cannons and then 2-6 with the shredders, but yeah I'm still new and don't know any of this mathhammer stuff.

For blasters I will be always giving my warriors blasters but I do have shredders incase I wanna use them or need them along wit h darklances.

I will have to get myself some wracks and such then to try them out as you suggested.

shredders just dont know what they want to do. High strength, but no AP so vehicles and heavy stuff will just save against it. Low shots, so its barely better than a splinter rifle vs light infantry. and then its competing with one of the best special weapons in the game currently, so there's not much of a contest.

I wouldn't go ripping shredders off dudes, maybe in the codex they'll be useful, but currently they're very bad.