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"Hi Guys

I played some matches in 8th ed and in most of them are finished after the first round, by surrender of the player which goes second. (sometimes the casualties were so high that he surrender at the start of his turn)
The reason for this unbalancing are the new shooting/cover rules in 8th, new models are mostly stronger (GW wants to sell them) and turns are done by alternating complete armies.

In 8th the second player starts his first round with so many casualties that he can never tie the score and the deficit will drastically rise in following turns. (This effect were also in editions before 8th but in 8th its really extreme)

I made a calculation for the situation we have in 8th (assumption: 2k Point, (remaining) units always score kills for 1/4 of their own points)
Points left on Table; Blue (A) starts first round, red (B) goes second.

There we see why most games are won by the player which goes first. B never catches up, A has always more points and (shooting) power on table and following turns are getting worse
This is not balanced! For me, balance means: If 2 same armies fight each other, both players use the same tactics and roll the same, the game should be a tie.

So I made thoughts upon thoughts and thinks this could be the best modification to avoid the unbalance by one going first.
"All models of the player which not goes first receive a FNP of 4+ before he starts his first round"

I added the FNP4+ to B for the first round of A:
"
Every player has less points than his enemy at the start of his round and catches up till the end of his round and that every round.
And this by an easy modification in the first round.

Ok mathematically the FNP4+ is working, but what do you think?
Maybe a FNP5+ is sufficient?:

I think 4+ would be too strong, since there are advantages to going second and disadvantages to going first beyond straight mathematical damage output.
If you go second (and know that you are going to be going second) you can place models in such a way as to protect them from an alpha strike, leave models in Deep Strike so that they can come in just where you need them and be protected from turn one, you can use screening units to protect your valuable choices from being killed on turn one, leaving you with 100% damage output despite losing a large amount of your forces.
(Plus you probably got to watch your opponent deploy all of their army before you had all of yours down, letting you counter-deploy better.)
Even 5+ universally seems too strong with that in mind, but 6+ seems to weak.

Here's an alternate proposal: Use the Command Point system.
For 1 CP, you can give a unit 4+ FNP for the duration of the first player turn. You can do this as many times as you want, but it must be declared before the beginning of the first Battle Round.

What about a spotting system?

Games are random encounters rather than 2 commanders meeting up with the intention of smashing the other ones forces (and faces).

Any enemy unit that is not within 24" and line of sight of at least one of your models can't be targeted in the shooting phase of the first (game, not players) turn. This rule is not used for any units that fired at least 1 weapon.

I wonder how it would work if you did something like night fighting in the first round. Applying negative modifiers to hit beyond a certain distance and capping it on 6+ to hit.

-1 to hit for shooting 9"-18".
-2 to hit for shooting 19"-27"
-3 To hit from beyond 27"

Then if first turn assault is a huge issue (I'm not sure this is as much the case.) you could give a stratagem that allows a unit to shoot an enemy unit that deploys within 12" of them usable only up to the end of the first player turn.

thx for the respond.

The hit penalty by range was my first approach. I could work because it reduces the losses for the second player in turn 1, which is what we want.

But on further investigation this wont correlate well with some special rules and army/unit diversity:
Gets Hot, Rending or special effect on 6+, reroll of failed to hit, psyker attacks, assaults in first round, ...
Also a less mobile army has more penalty than an fast advancing army.
And how to handle bad hitting long range shooters if even a rolled 6 won't hit? (no change to hit (big nerv) or buff them to a hit by 6, which make them more valuable that a unit with a little better BS)

Temp wrote:
thx for the respond.

The hit penalty by range was my first approach. I could work because it reduces the losses for the second player in turn 1, which is what we want.

But on further investigation this wont correlate well with some special rules and army/unit diversity:
Gets Hot, Rending or special effect on 6+, reroll of failed to hit, psyker attacks, assaults in first round, ...
Also a less mobile army has more penalty than an fast advancing army.
And how to handle bad hitting long range shooters if even a rolled 6 won't hit? (no change to hit (big nerv) or buff them to a hit by 6, which make them more valuable that a unit with a little better BS)

Gets hot is an option, so the rule makes it so that you won't overcharge turn 1, makes re-rolls worse on turn 1 (so a bigger nerf to armies relying on those bubble gunlines). Psyker attacks are not as numerous and don't have near the range as shooting. Assaults in first turn I have not seen to be as big an issue, but as I said you could solve that with a 1 CP stratagem to allow for shooting units that deploy within 12". This hurts assaults as very few armies can assault turn 1 without some sort of deepstrike.

As for mobile armies, yes it is less of a penalty because they are moving into a risky range to do damage, further most heavy weapons get a -1 for moving so something like an assault cannon razorback is going to get an additional -1 to hit to get into range.

As I said you cap the turn 1 negative at 6+ to hit. Sure this makes Orks a bit less penalized, but their shooting is far worse than say guard. The issue with say "feel no pain" is that by Raw it stacks so some armies are going to have a ton of rolls and the game will last for ever. Say orks with a KFF, Pain boy, and this rule. Every wound caused results in 3+ save rolls (more for multi-damage weapons), meaning games won't finish. I also think it will strongly encourage beta strike lists.If you had the negative penalties for the whole first turn (both players) it would encourage mobility, which makes for better games.

Beyond that though the best answer is a lot of LOS blocking terrain so that armies can hide turn 1.

Hit penalty for range does NOT work. Those suggestions are always put out there assuming everything functions like a SM.

What about orks?

What about exocrines and their 36" range while being required to stand still to get their bonuses.

What about Biovores and their 48" range spore launchers?

Those range modifiers could flat out cripple an army on their first turn.

 Lance845 wrote:
Hit penalty for range does NOT work. Those suggestions are always put out there assuming everything functions like a SM.

What about orks?

What about exocrines and their 36" range while being required to stand still to get their bonuses.

What about Biovores and their 48" range spore launchers?

Those range modifiers could flat out cripple an army on their first turn.

This would ironically improve Biovores, actually, but that's aside the point.

Perhaps make it on the 1st turn the 1st player can't shoot at enemies over 1/2 base weapon range (i.e., for bolters, over 12" away).

Might also have to prevent the 1st player from charging (or only rolling D6 for charges) or it only punishes shooting armies.

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps make it on the 1st turn the 1st player can't shoot at enemies over 1/2 base weapon range (i.e., for bolters, over 12" away).

Might also have to prevent the 1st player from charging (or only rolling D6 for charges) or it only punishes shooting armies.

That'd effectively make first turn pointless for a lot of armies. Even long range weaponry rarely has more than 48" range, and that's on heavy weapons.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps make it on the 1st turn the 1st player can't shoot at enemies over 1/2 base weapon range (i.e., for bolters, over 12" away).

Might also have to prevent the 1st player from charging (or only rolling D6 for charges) or it only punishes shooting armies.

That'd effectively make first turn pointless for a lot of armies. Even long range weaponry rarely has more than 48" range, and that's on heavy weapons.

Isn't that a great thing, the first turn being a chance to outplay your opponent by moving better than him?
What about a turn zero, where both players skip each phase but the movement phase?

reading the few last post is a conformation for me that modifying,stats like hit, BS, range and/or... for the first half of the first round isn't working.
The diversity of armies and playstyle in w40k is to big. One army will be more nerved than others.

Back to the FNP for the second player in the first round. The reduction is random with a flat chance of 33% or 50% to avoid an unsaved wound, no matter of BS, Strength, Toughness, Save-roll or source of wound.
The FNP is rolled afterward und can be rolled 2 times or more in 8th if one unit has one or more in its special rules.

I already tried it on game with a FNP of 5+. My friend went second, I gave my best in the first round and his losses were not so devastating as in the games before. In his turn he catches up and gave me a real challenge.
I lost very close, but it was the best game I ever had in 8th.

Trollbert wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps make it on the 1st turn the 1st player can't shoot at enemies over 1/2 base weapon range (i.e., for bolters, over 12" away).

Might also have to prevent the 1st player from charging (or only rolling D6 for charges) or it only punishes shooting armies.

That'd effectively make first turn pointless for a lot of armies. Even long range weaponry rarely has more than 48" range, and that's on heavy weapons.

Isn't that a great thing, the first turn being a chance to outplay your opponent by moving better than him?
What about a turn zero, where both players skip each phase but the movement phase?

No it's not a great thing, because all you're doing is kicking in the teeth of some playstyles while doing nothing to harm others. I play Dark Eldar or Flier Spam? (Or Conscript spam, who don't care about actually putting out a lot of damage?) Then I don't give a crap about your limitations. I play a gunline or an assault army? I may as well pack up and go home.

Give three command points to the army that goes second if they choose not to try and steal the initiative.

They lose their gamble, but will have a better chance of survival or doing damage later because of their ability to mitigate some of the random aspects of the game.

I suggest this, I have made this suggestion in other threads as well

Rolling to Steal Initiative by default is gone

2nd player gains 1 Free Command Point

1 CP - Attempt to Steal Initiative
1 CP - Your army gains a 5+ FNP during the 1st turn

Oh, also another important rule...
FIRST PLAYER MAY NOT BRING IN RESERVES DURING THE FIRST ROUND!

1 CP for a 5+ FNP 1st turn seems a bit much. It's too much of a no brainer that virtually everyone is going to use it against an army with any decent amount of shooting. I do have some ideas for other stratagems to give the player going 2nd some more options.

These stratagems may only be used by the person going second after the seize the initiative attempt.

1 CP - Feint - Once the player who has first turn is determined but beofre the first turn, the player going second may redeploy d6 units in his army anywhere within his deployment zone. If a transport is redeployed, all units remain aboard in its new location unless that unit is also redeployed. Units may be placed in reserve if allowed by the mission.

2 CP - Tactical Withdrawal - For the first turn only, all enemy units may not advance and count as having moved for the purposes of shooting even if the unit remained stationary.

3 CP - Entrenched Defense - For the first turn only, all units in the player's army are treated as being in cover. Units in cover gain an additional +1 to their armor save.

1 CP - Delay Tactics - The player going first may not bring in reserves on the first turn, and may only bring reserves on the second turn on a roll of 4+.

1 CP - Superior Reconnaissance - For the first turn only, the player going second's units resolve overwatch at their normal BS ignoring all modifiers instead of hitting only on a 6.

The player going second could burn a lot of command points to seriously hamper the first player turn.

To preface, I don't actually think the first turn imbalance is that bad. With smart deployment, and tactical removal of wounded models, you can usually stay in pretty good shape when your first shooting comes around.

That being said, if you wanted to introduce a little more balance to it, I think the easiest thing to do would be to create, just like the one that lets you choose a unit to fight out of turn, a tactic that lets you choose a unit to move or a unit to shoot, our of turn, after the other player moves or shoots with a unit (this would likely lead to players expending more CP early in the game, but as the game progresses into more CC, this would become less relevant).

I also do agree with the people saying the player going second should get a small number of bonus CP (+2 MAX)

An automatic FNP just seems obviously better as a proposal than most everything else that's been suggested. Clearly it makes more sense than to-hit penalties and similar. People are suggesting stratagems and the like, but it's very weird to tie your ability to cope with going second to the amount of CP your army has -- these are most useful to armies which are already decent when going second.

The main drawback of spotting one player a one-turn FNP is that getting the first turn can matter for armies which don't actually expect to do damage on the first turn. A Berserker horde in Rhinos really wants to go first but isn't going to do anything to you until later turns. Certain armies mostly want to go first so that they can start moving units toward objectives.

Now, maybe second turn assault -oriented armies need the help, and the extra turn of movement isn't a huge deal for anyone else, so this isn't a problem. But if it is then you might want to consider some other handicap in addition to a one-turn FNP which is useful precisely when the FNP isn't.