Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

sonic screech states when a harpy charges until the end of turn enemy units within 1" cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so.
counter defensive states that it is used right after a unit that has charged has fought. select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next

here is the scene. i shoot up a squad of boys with some gargoyles and some shrikes, assault them on my turn get them to say half strength. they live through my opponents turn taking some casualties and then i have my harpy fly into the battle to support them. can my opponent use counter defensive to negate my sonic screech?

Lord_Ghazghkull wrote:
sonic screech states when a harpy charges until the end of turn enemy units within 1" cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so.
counter defensive states that it is used right after a unit that has charged has fought. select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next

here is the scene. i shoot up a squad of boys with some gargoyles and some shrikes, assault them on my turn get them to say half strength. they live through my opponents turn taking some casualties and then i have my harpy fly into the battle to support them. can my opponent use counter defensive to negate my sonic screech?

I would say utilise the sequencing rules, even if it's a bit of a stretch to say they apply here.

Otherwise, roll off as per the "Most Important Rule" since you're given two contradictory statements with no clause to resolve them (like the various "First Strike" style rules have).

Personally I would play it as the Stratagem taking precedence regardless of who's turn it is, but that has zero rules basis, since the rules in this case are simply not explanatory enough and result in a conflicting situation.

after talking to my local group they've all said that the units charged with the harpy are no longer eligible until every other eligible unit has fought.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Lord_Ghazghkull wrote:
sonic screech states when a harpy charges until the end of turn enemy units within 1" cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so.
counter defensive states that it is used right after a unit that has charged has fought. select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next

here is the scene. i shoot up a squad of boys with some gargoyles and some shrikes, assault them on my turn get them to say half strength. they live through my opponents turn taking some casualties and then i have my harpy fly into the battle to support them. can my opponent use counter defensive to negate my sonic screech?

I would say utilise the sequencing rules, even if it's a bit of a stretch to say they apply here.

Otherwise, roll off as per the "Most Important Rule" since you're given two contradictory statements with no clause to resolve them (like the various "First Strike" style rules have).

Personally I would play it as the Stratagem taking precedence regardless of who's turn it is, but that has zero rules basis, since the rules in this case are simply not explanatory enough and result in a conflicting situation.

I'd agree with Stratagem taking precedence. The Harpy uses a Rules override to make you fight last, but you play a new override on top that lets you fight next. Like playing trump cards on top of each other: last one on top wins. That makes most sense to me. It's like: Player 1 "Aha you fight last due to my sneaky trick!" - Player 2 "Aha no I am sneakier and fight NOW!"

I dont agree with the strategem taking precedent.

Sonic screech would make the unit fight absolutely last, even after picking a alternating units.

Counter charge let's a unit that would fight at it's normal time fight as if it were charging, ie it can go after the charging Ayer elects a unit that charged to fight.

I'd argue the unit can't even be selected for the strategem as they don't get to fight during the normal fighting anyways, ie after all eligible units is after normally alternating between units that didn't charge.

blaktoof wrote:
I dont agree with the strategem taking precedent.

Sonic screech would make the unit fight absolutely last, even after picking a alternating units.

Counter charge let's a unit that would fight at it's normal time fight as if it were charging, ie it can go after the charging Ayer elects a unit that charged to fight.

I'd argue the unit can't even be selected for the strategem as they don't get to fight during the normal fighting anyways, ie after all eligible units is after normally alternating between units that didn't charge.

Agree with this.

But also, if 2 effects take place at the same time the player whos turn it is gets to decide the order of operations.

 Lance845 wrote:
But also, if 2 effects take place at the same time the player whos turn it is gets to decide the order of operations.

But this isn't a case of two things happening at the same time, they happen at very different times. This is a case of two rules giving contradicting results with no clause to resolve the contradiction.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
But also, if 2 effects take place at the same time the player whos turn it is gets to decide the order of operations.

But this isn't a case of two things happening at the same time, they happen at very different times. This is a case of two rules giving contradicting results with no clause to resolve the contradiction.

Fair.

Just reread the stratgem. It allows you to select one of your "eligible" units to fight. Arguably, the fact that the screech forces the unit to fight last means it's not eligible.

 Lance845 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
But also, if 2 effects take place at the same time the player whos turn it is gets to decide the order of operations.

But this isn't a case of two things happening at the same time, they happen at very different times. This is a case of two rules giving contradicting results with no clause to resolve the contradiction.

Fair.

Just reread the stratgem. It allows you to select one of your "eligible" units to fight. Arguably, the fact that the screech forces the unit to fight last means it's not eligible.

Arguably, it is. It can still be selected to fight. By your logic, you cannot select any non-charging unit, since they're not eligible till all charging units have fought.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
But also, if 2 effects take place at the same time the player whos turn it is gets to decide the order of operations.

But this isn't a case of two things happening at the same time, they happen at very different times. This is a case of two rules giving contradicting results with no clause to resolve the contradiction.

Fair.

Just reread the stratgem. It allows you to select one of your "eligible" units to fight. Arguably, the fact that the screech forces the unit to fight last means it's not eligible.

Arguably, it is. It can still be selected to fight. By your logic, you cannot select any non-charging unit, since they're not eligible till all charging units have fought.

Non charging units dont have a stipulation that they MUST be chosen last.

Not that gw has a good track record in using standard rules writing grammar and vernacular, but generally when rules writing uses definitive statements they trump non definitive. Must beats can. In that "must fight last" beats "can be chosen".

Or the actual words in the rule cannot beats can. Can is a choice. Cannot is very definitive. Infact the rule for screech is " cannot be chosen to fight until all other eligible units have done so."

So...

1) screech triggers
2) opponent uses stratgem
3) every unit in combat that is eligible to be chosen has to fight before the screeched unit/s anyway.