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Ultramarines warlords allow you to not spend CP on 5+.

If you spend CP for extra relics when list building can you roll to prevent spending it using this ability?

Hmm.
Well it's hard to argue your warlord isn't alive before the battle starts.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Hmm.
Well it's hard to argue your warlord isn't alive before the battle starts.

But does your warlord even exist before deployment?

It's just an awkward thing - the rule says "when you spend cp" iirc. Well you spent it during listbuilding. Do you roll when you build your list? What if you built your list before arriving at the game?

Personally I'd probably let someone roll in front of me if it meant that much to them, but I haven't done so myself - I don't have any time to roll for it, so I don't and just show up with one less rechargeable cp. I wouldn't accept if someone said "I rolled when I spent it and it was a 5," though.

Also, the above is only true in a friendly game - in a tournament I'm asking the TO.

Models that aren't on the battlefield can't use their special abilities, is that not the case? At the time you're choosing your army, there's not even a battlefield for your model to be on.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Models that aren't on the battlefield can't use their special abilities, is that not the case? At the time you're choosing your army, there's not even a battlefield for your model to be on.

I agree with this.

 Lance845 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Models that aren't on the battlefield can't use their special abilities, is that not the case? At the time you're choosing your army, there's not even a battlefield for your model to be on.

I agree with this.

This is why that's how I play it. I feel like I've seen people talking about things that seem to work while models are in the various forms of deep strike reserves though - meaning they aren't on the battlefield. I could be mistaken on that though. And there's precedent for using stratagems before the game starts, etc. But at army creation doesn't apply to that, imo.

However, I did just realize that you don't choose your warlord trait during list creation, so this is all moot, unless the codices say something different. In the rulebook you choose a trait "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army."

Now we know!

The Chapter Relics Stratagem is used "before the battle". The Warlord Trait is chosen "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army."

It's not explicitly stated when the battle is considered to have started, but various rules refer to units starting the battle deployed in different ways, so I think after deployment and when the first battle round starts both makes sense and is reflected in the rules.

Necessarily then you could use the Stratagem during deployment and after the Warlord Trait has been chosen, allowing you to potentially recovery the Command Points spent.

Adept of the Codex: Ultramarines warlords are peerless masters of tactics and strategy. Whilst your Warlord is alive, roll a dice each time you spend a Command Point to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that CP is immediately refunded.

COMMAND POINTS
When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a number of Command Points. These can be spent to utilise Stratagems – each of which represents a strategic or tactical asset available to your army. All Battle-forged armies start with 3 Command Points. The simplest way to accrue more Command Points is to take more Detachments – many of which increase your total number of Command Points. You can spend Command Points to use a Stratagem before or during a battle. Each time you use a Stratagem, reduce your Command Points total by the appropriate amount. If you do not have enough Command Points for a specific Stratagem, you cannot use it. Unless otherwise noted, you can use the same Stratagem multiple times during the course of a battle.

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select an ADEPTUS ASTARTES Captain in your army. Replace this model’s CAPTAIN keyword with Chapter Master and replace his Rites of Battle ability with the following ability: ‘CHAPTER MASTER: You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly <CHAPTER> units within 6" of this model.’ You can only use this Stratagem once and your army cannot include two CHAPTER MASTERS from the same Chapter.

If your Warlord is a CHARACTER, it can use a Warlord Trait – a preferred tactic or personal ability that marks them out amongst their peers. Immediately before either player starts to deploy their army, you can roll on the Warlord Trait table here to determine what Warlord Trait your Warlord has. Alternatively, choose the trait that most suits your Warlord’s temperament or style of war.

----
So... The crux of the argument is: Is your Warlord considered 'Alive' during 'before the battle'?
They haven't established what alive means, but they have established what dead means. So if he's not dead, he has to be alive?
Warlord traits are chosen (assigned) before the first person deploys. Is before the first player deploys considered 'before the battle'?

I don't have any dogs in this fight, but I would let them roll 3 dice before deployment and get back the CPs on 5s.

Oh okay, the stratagems also say "before the battle" then? I thought the Relic one was used at list building but now thinking about it I think I do remember people talking about picking relics with the relic strat after seeing their opponent's armies.

thanks for the responses guys.
My view is it happens in the following order:
1. Choose list
2. Spend CP
3. Choose Warlord/Select warlord trait
4. Begin Battle

My view is that you spend the CP before the warlord is chosen so the ability is not active at that point.

I however do have a dog in this fight since I'm getting regularly beaten by a buddy who is brand new to the game and I'm definitely not new to the game. (SHAMEFACED)

 Nithaniel wrote:
thanks for the responses guys.
My view is it happens in the following order:
1. Choose list
2. Spend CP
3. Choose Warlord/Select warlord trait
4. Begin Battle

My view is that you spend the CP before the warlord is chosen so the ability is not active at that point.

I however do have a dog in this fight since I'm getting regularly beaten by a buddy who is brand new to the game and I'm definitely not new to the game. (SHAMEFACED)

As explained above, the Stratagem only needs to be used before the battle, so you could swap numbers 2 and 3 and still be correct.

fair enough. So whats the resolution? In the case that warlord traits can be chosen at the same time or before spending CP on list building it boils down to the interpretation of whether the warlord trait can be active before the battle begins.

Whats your opinion?

I would say the Warlord is fairly plainly alive once deployed and during deployment, which is still before the battle begins and after the Warlord Trait is chosen, so you could use both the Warlord Trait and Stratagem at that point.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I would say the Warlord is fairly plainly alive once deployed and during deployment, which is still before the battle begins and after the Warlord Trait is chosen, so you could use both the Warlord Trait and Stratagem at that point.

Yes I can't refute your logic there but the cp is not spent during deployment.

I'm not trying to be difficult for the sake of it. A similar ability to acquire CP is in the AM codex (the aquila relic) and may crop up in future codices in different forms. Its quite a powerful ability and I'm not convinced that you can although i'm 50/50 on it at this point and we're playing it as you can roll for it at the beginning of the game.

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting.

The Command Points are spent when you use the Stratagem, which is used at some point before the battle. We seem to have agreed that deployment is before the battle and after the Warlord Trait has been chosen and while the Warlord is alive, so the Command Points would be spent and you would be able to attempt to have them refunded at that point.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting.

The Command Points are spent when you use the Stratagem, which is used at some point before the battle. We seem to have agreed that deployment is before the battle and after the Warlord Trait has been chosen and while the Warlord is alive, so the Command Points would be spent and you would be able to attempt to have them refunded at that point.

Sorry let me explain my thinking more clearly.

In the rulebook under the title THE WARLORD it says:
"Once you have mustered your army, nominate one of your models to be the warlord.
...
Immediately before either player starts to deploy their army, you can roll on the Warlord Trait table ... Alternatively choose the trait..."

Use of the words "Immediately before..." implies it is the last thing a player does before deploying.

The stratagem uses the words "Before the battle"

So my point is that it isn't a debate of when the warlord is counted as being alive. Its more the fact that when the CP is spent the warlord cannot have been designated yet so the ability can't be used. The relics in my example are also applied at list building stage because you have to pay for the wargear that the relic replaces. So all of this takes place before you can declare a warlord.

I've just seen in the Eldar info in warhammer community that they have a similar ability to the ultra warlord trait except it specifies a 6+ and also that the warlord mus be "On the battlefield" So it is likely that several armies are going to have this CP reclaim ability going forward and every army will have the option of paying CP at list building to purchase additional relics.

Relics are chosen before the battle sure, but are they actually at list building stage? I don't see any reason why.

You pick the wargear the relic replaces at list building sure, but when you choose to invoke the stratagem you aren't forced to pick the same option each time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But it's true choosing warlord trait happens "immediately before deployment" which i would consider occuring after "before the battle"

Nithaniel wrote:So my point is that it isn't a debate of when the warlord is counted as being alive. Its more the fact that when the CP is spent the warlord cannot have been designated yet so the ability can't be used. The relics in my example are also applied at list building stage because you have to pay for the wargear that the relic replaces. So all of this takes place before you can declare a warlord.

You're trying to lock selecting the bonus relics into the list building stage, but there's nothing requiring you to do so. The Stratagem allows you to take the additional Chapter Relics at any point in time before the battle, which could be after the rest of your list building and during deployment.

Captyn_Bob wrote:But it's true choosing warlord trait happens "immediately before deployment" which i would consider occuring after "before the battle"

I disagree. The Transport rules for example tell us, "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately..."

This tells us that deployment occurs before the battle starts.

Under 'Only War' Power Level is determined after Deployment (because determining the Underdog when both armies have the same Power Level is done on the basis of which player assigned deployment zones), and says, "Before battle begins..."

This then necessarily must happen after deployment and before the battle begins, making deployment also occur before the battle.

Fair points

If being alive means not being dead, and death is defined, then the question then is can something dead be killed? Logically, the Warlord Trait "should" apply, if only because:

We have achieved a thread about Schroedinger's Warlord. This is surely peak Dakka.

So let's try and summarise this in order.
..
Muster your army (open/ narrative)
Write your army list.. (matched /narrative)
Note what wargear your models have ready to swap for relics.
Choose warlord model. (After mustering)

Immediately before deployment, choose warlord traits.
Deployment
(Now we are before the battle)
Determine power levels (Open)
Pick psychic powers / choose relics / use before the battle stratagems

The Battle Begins with Round one turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(But of course before the battle steps can be done earlier if more convenient, because it's still before the battle)