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Made in se
Furious Raptor




Gothenburg, Sweden

I played a game yesterday and my Redemptor Dreadnought moved in the Movement phase and shot in the Shooting phase. I modified its "Heavy" weapons by 1 and so only hit on 4+, but my opponent claimed that since the dice are subracted by one a 2 is a 1. He also claimed that since a 1 Overheats the Macro Plasma Incinerator my Dreadnought took damage. I get that natural 1s Overheats but neither I nor my friend could find where he read this. He claimed that since it´s not a natural 1 I can´t get my re-roll (for being within 6" of my Captain) AND got burned. What´s the deal here?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion...and bacon! 
   
Made in es
Swift Swooping Hawk





Re-rolls must be applied before the modifiers.

Some effects like overheating happens with a final roll of X or X+- (it dependes on the wording).

So yes your opponent it's right (this was explained by GW )

you roll for hit (3+ on his case) then check if you can re-roll.
After this you apply the modifiers (both neg or positive) and resolve any further rules.

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Luusormi wrote:
I played a game yesterday and my Redemptor Dreadnought moved in the Movement phase and shot in the Shooting phase. I modified its "Heavy" weapons by 1 and so only hit on 4+, but my opponent claimed that since the dice are subracted by one a 2 is a 1. He also claimed that since a 1 Overheats the Macro Plasma Incinerator my Dreadnought took damage. I get that natural 1s Overheats but neither I nor my friend could find where he read this. He claimed that since it´s not a natural 1 I can´t get my re-roll (for being within 6" of my Captain) AND got burned. What´s the deal here?
Your opponent is correct in his assertion of the rules. It will overheat on a roll of 2 AND you can't re-roll it with a "Re-roll 1s" rule.

The designers commentary makes it ironclad. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?
A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).

The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.

Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time resulting in a 3.

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 23:26:53


 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 Luusormi wrote:
I played a game yesterday and my Redemptor Dreadnought moved in the Movement phase and shot in the Shooting phase. I modified its "Heavy" weapons by 1 and so only hit on 4+, but my opponent claimed that since the dice are subracted by one a 2 is a 1. He also claimed that since a 1 Overheats the Macro Plasma Incinerator my Dreadnought took damage. I get that natural 1s Overheats but neither I nor my friend could find where he read this. He claimed that since it´s not a natural 1 I can´t get my re-roll (for being within 6" of my Captain) AND got burned. What´s the deal here?


Emphasis mine. You're not actually hitting on a 4+. You're hitting on a 3+, which is your Ballistic Skill. You're modifying your roll by -1. In essence, rolling a d6-1 and trying to score a 3+. So, yes, 2-1 = 1.

To your second point, as has been illustrated, re-rolls occur before modifiers. Roll a d6, get a 2. Then, check to see if you are permitted to re-roll it - you aren't, since you can only re-roll 1s. Then, with all re-rolls finished, subtract 1 from the result for having moved. 2-1 = 1. Since you rolled a 1 to hit, you suffer from overheat.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Yeah that's a mistake even the best of us make. Modifiers don't alter the number you need to succeed, they alter the actual dice roll.

A Marine that has -1 to hit still needs a 3+, they are rolling a D6-1 instead of a D6. Same for armour saves, a Marine suffering a AP-2 wound still needs a 3+ to pass, it's just rolling a D6-2 to do it.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






Dimmamar

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A Marine that has -1 to hit still needs a 3+, they are rolling a D6-1 instead of a D6. Same for armour saves, a Marine suffering a AP-2 wound still needs a 3+ to pass, it's just rolling a D6-2 to do it.


Woah. So the AP of the weapon is actually just a modifier to the dice roll. On plasma it's -3. So for power armour I need to roll a six bc 6-3=3. But 5-3=2, which is a fail. Neat.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 6000 2000 5000


"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

As hard as it seems to adjust to, I actually like modifiers applying to the dice rather than the roll needed.
It has a certain elegance to it.

   
 
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