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The Key Building Strategems specifically state:

"The effects of a key building apply to a single infantry unit with at least one model either within it, or within a set distance of it, as stated in the description"

Hold that in your mind and check the Combat Engineers Strategem:

"All infantry models are equipped as combat engineers..."

Would this include Jump Infantry, Jet Infantry, Cavalry, Beasts, Artillery, Monstrous Creatures or Independant Characters?  Everything I can find in the rulebook, p.8-10, p.53-57, p.264 and p.266 all refer to unit types as being totally separate and unrelated.  Infantry are distinct from Bikes, Beasts, Cavalry, Artillery, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures or Jetbikes, and as the Strategems reference only Infantry, I can see no reasoning for allowing any of these others to be able to benefit from those Strategems.


Secondly, who can be effected by Plunging Fire?

"Any troops in an army may use the Plunging Fire strategem."

Is that meant to be units selected as Troops from the FOC, or just a typo, and should read units, or some such thing?  Can vehicles us it?

And lastly does destroying a City Ruin actually negate the effects of Key Building Strategems or the Fortified Building Strategem? There is nothing in their descriptions or the rules themselves that state how and when (or even if) these strategems may be cancelled. Their placement is tied to a specific terrain piece, but it does not mention whether their survival is.

Although I agree they should be lost when the building is destroyed, when do you lose it? When it becomes a Dangerous Building (can you have a Fortified Dangerous Building?)? When it is reduced to Rubble? This is not explained anywhere in the book, and someone could argue that these Strategems are indeed permanent.

Tough questions.

If you were going with a liberal interpretation of the term "infantry" you could claim that jump infantry would also benefit. However if you are going with the more strict interpretation (as I would), then it is clear that only "infantry" may benefit. Under no circumstance would Cavalry, Artillery or Monstrous Creatures benefit.


For your second question, without further clarification from GW I think it would apply to any model in the army, more of a general use of the word "troops" (i.e. all the troops aka warriors under your command). Notice that the word isn't capitalized like it is for a "Troops" selection.


For your final question, someone could indeed argue that they last forever and I don't think it is possible to disprove them with RAW. If there is a dividing line I think it would be when the ruin is actually "destroyed" as the rules tell us to remove the ruin model and replace it with rubble. Since strategems are assigned to a particular ruin, if that model is removed I suppose the strategems (which are marked by a marker or modeled into the actual ruin terrain piece) would be removed right along with it.

But that's all very loosy-goosey. I think we're stuck having to discuss this with our opponents before each game.

Why wouldn't you be able to have a fortified dangerous building? The fact of being dangerous doesn't remove the fact that it is fortified. Capt K

I agree, nothing says that those stratagems are ever distroyed so it has to be assumed that they remain in play the entire game regardless of the condition of the building.

Even if it's reduced to rubble? So you can have fortified rubble too?

Another question to go along with these: can you use the fortified building 3+ invul save against a dangerous building result?

I agree with yak on the building destruction cancelling the effect. The building that the stratagem applies to is removed when it is destroyed. What it is replaced by is irrelevant, they are different.

@Antonin, I don't have CoD on me (Still have to make my Canadan copyright legal second copy to port around on my computer) but I am 99% sure that your save for a dangerous building result is your armor not your cover.

For the infantry question, I can't see any other way to interpret it other than "Unit type: Infantry" gets it, any other unit type does not.

Is "jump infantry" a subtype of "infantry" in the same way that "scout bike squadron" is a subtype of "bike squadron" (according to Pete Haines)?

Andrew.

@Godhead: I am not disputing the fortified rubble. It would make sense that the building has been destroyed, therefore you would probably lose the strategem However, just because a building is a dangerous one, doesn't mean it loses it's status as a fortified building. Capt K

Yes, that was my idea as well, and agree that that is the way it should be played, I just wish it had some kind of support in the rules...

Posted By BloodyT on 06/14/2006 11:26 AM
@operon

Buy the rulebook... then you kin stop asking all the stupid questions... of course I am currently giving you the benefit of the doubt.

- BT

I have one, thanks mate. I don't think anyone's addressed the points at the top of the thread though about whether jump infantry count as a type of infantry for stratagem purposes or as a separate kind of troop.

Makes no difference to me, just killing time on the interweb.

Andrew.

(Bloody trolls...)

Pertaining to the key building strategems, maybe I am giving GW too much credit but no where does it say in either the demolition of buildings or the key building strategems that they are destroyed if the ruins are turned in to rubble.

At first glance I can see how one can come up with the conclusion that since a building is laid to waste the KBS is gone but the reason for replacing the model with rubble is to show it is rubble, same as you mark a model wounded, a model is not unwounded if you don't mark it and keep track of it elsewhere.

Again, maybe I am giving too much credit to GW but I would figure if there was a way to get rid of KBS they would note it somewhere and not try to hide it and make it something to sit and try to interpret.

While the 'ruins model is removed so any markers on it are removed too" is an amusing technical point, I think it's secondary to the argument about destroyed ruins and Key Building Strategies.

There are several ways to destroy a ruin: demolition, siege shells, wrecker. They all point to the Destroyed Buildings explanatory box, which states something to the effect of "the city ruin is removed, and replaced by an area of rubble".

The Key Building Strategies are keyed to a "city ruin", never to an "area of rubble". Most of them include phrases limiting the utility of the Strategum to "a unit *in the ruin*" or "a unit within 6" of the ruin". Ok, sometimes it says "a unit in *it*", but I don't think that it's much of a stretch to assuming that "it" is a contraction of "the city ruin to which the Key Building Strategum is keyed".

So if you replace a Ruin/Building with an area of rubble (when it is destroyed), I think it would be very difficult to claim that your unit is either in the building, or within 6" of it - since it has been destroyed. My IG don't get the benefit of my Officer's leadership bubble from 12" of the location of his corpse after he gets killed...he's destroyed and his model is removed from the board. Much like a ruin when it is destroyed.

That's my RAW point. Now for the fluff and intent: From an intent point of view, the Wrecker/Siege Shells/Demolition strategies aren't much good if they just remove terrain, and maybe damage/entangle an occupying unit (needing two rolls of 4+ for Siege Shells or Demolitions - that's 4 turns of shooting/wrecking). The ability to remove Key Building Strategies with those Strategies seems to be necessary for building-destroying Strategies to have equivalent value.

Fluff: I don't think that a Medicare Facility, Ammo Dump, or Fuel Dump would survive or be at all useable after a building is reduced to rubble any more than the admin assistants' computers were useable after the twin towers came down...

Well, just called the rulezboyz and they said that it is unclear and best to figure out with your opponent... great.

As far as the fluff goes, you do have it and I have to agree on that. As far as the RAW goes, it is unclear at best.

After a much better fluff explanation by you, I would be more inclined to go that way.

It must be the 9/11 reference that convinced you...


In debate, invoking the twin towers is like referencing Hitler...can't be gainsaid!

Actually that IS pretty much what did it.

as to the wheather jump infentry would count as infantry, from the main rule book pg 53, under UNIT TYPE RULES: "In this section, you will find the rules for each of these unit types. Unless Stated in this section, these unit types follow the rules for infantry." so unless otherwise stated, any rule for infantry aplies to all of the unit types, other then vehicles.

"@operon

Buy the rulebook... then you kin stop asking all the stupid questions... of course I am currently giving you the benefit of the doubt.

- BT"


nothing like a warm greeting from the village idiot!

way to make someone feel welcome and encourage participation, Bloody Troll.

Imriel, I've previously read that and I'm not sure if that means that the Strategems would be applicable to them though.  They follow the rules, but I don't think they are effected by rules that specifically mention Infantry without mentioning the other unit types.

Especially because of the way that the Combat Engineers Strategem is written, I certainly wouldn't expect Jump Infantry or Bikes or Cavalry or Monstrous Creatures to be equipped with the Engineer equipment.

Likewise, I couldn't see a MC or Cavalry being treated in a Medicae Facility.

The Strategems say Infantry, and I believe that only Infantry can use them.

But by the rule I quoted all of the unit types are infantry, they only work differently in the ways that section says they do.  in fact it says "Unless stated in this section,..." meaning only that section can differentiate how they work, and that no other rules can treat them as being different, so technicly even if the rule explisitly stated that it didn't aply to them, the main book says that it would.

Posted by Imriel on 06/16/2006 11:29 AM
But by the rule I quoted all of the unit types are infantry, they only work differently in the ways that section says they do.

It says no such thing. It says that the various unit types all follow the rules for infantry unless specifically noted otherwise. It never states that they're all infantry.