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... and it went splendidly.

The story: I played my 2000 points of Slaanesh Daemons after the new FAQ against 2000 points of foot Dark Angels - mostly greenwing Primaris with a bunch of Deathwing on the back end. The on-table (not deathwing) portion was 4 Intercessor squads (1 6 man, rest 5), 1 10 man Hellblaster squad surrounding a Banner, Azrael, Lieutenant, and Librarian. There were also 6 Black Knights with the corvus hammers and plasma talons on bikes. In reserve were 1 5 man Deathwing Knights unit, 1 5-man Cataphractii Terminator deathwing unit, and 1 Deathwing Captain in regular armour. There may have been a Deathwing Banner as well, though I confess I do not recall. It was one Battalion and one Vanguard, if I recall correctly, and Azrael was the warlord with the "regen CP on a 5+" trait.

My 2000 points were Zarakynel, Bringer of Torments (the awful 666 point Lord of War, but whose model is so badass I have to run her) in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment; one Battalion consisting of a Daemon Prince with Wings and the Souleater relic, one Herald of Slaanesh, and 3 units of 20 Daemonettes with all the gubbins, and 2 single model Fiends of Slaanesh units; and a Second Battalion consisting of 3 10-girl Daemonette units with no upgrades, the Masque of Slaanesh, and a Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker, and 5 Seekers with icon and instrument.

The FAQ made some badass changes that helped my army a lot more than I thought they would:

1) Not deepstriking was hilarious. Normally I blow a ton of CP on deepstriking Zarakynel and friends. The automatically best warlord trait for her is always "The Murderdance" which gives her +d3 attacks when she charges (there are some situations when others are alright, but this is usually the default in most games). Instead of any deepstrikes, however, I simply deployed Turn 1. It meant I had to be very careful about my Deployment (put Zarakynel in a dangerously isolated position on a single flank, meaning there was good risk the opponent wouldn't put much of consequence near her, for example). But I gave Zarakynel the "Celerity of Slaanesh" warlord trait that gives +3" of movement instead, giving her between 16 and 21 inches of movement in a turn before charges, which proved to be pretty damn awesome and would have been wasted if I just DS'd her.

2) More CP was awesome! In addition to not blowing CP on deepstriking Zarakynel and friends, I saved it - and instead of having 9, I had 13! It was glorious. I got to use Warp Surge on Zarakynel for that sweet sweet 3++ every shooting phase and still have enough left over for things like "Aura of Acquiescence" turning those 2-attack Primaris into 1-attack Tactical Marines. I also got to re-roll a lot more!

3) First turn charges are absolutely possible. My Seekers, Herald on Seeker, and Fiends can all go ~15-20 inches before charges (Seekers can go 16-21 and get +1 to charges) and the Seekers and Seeker Herald can re-roll charges thanks to Unholy Speed. Zarakynel herself can go the same distance before charging, and even the lowly Daemonettes can go between 9 and 14 inches before charging with a +1. I think I ended up with 6 first-turn charges - one unit of 20 Daemonettes crashing into some unfortunate Intercessors, and then 2 fiends, the seekers, and the seeker Herald into the Hellblasters. Zarakynel murdered the Black Knights who wandered too close to her in an effort to make their plasma talons work - but firing after advancing at a T8 target with a 3++ just didn't cut it.

4) Alpha strikes are actually much reduced. I went 2nd in this game, and with 90 T3/5+ save models, the alpha from Dark Angel deep striking storm bolters would've actually put a considerable dent in my lines (something like 7.5 daemonettes dead, which means it's either d6 or d6+1 lost to morale. That's quite the gutting for even a 20-girl unit, and would be likely to have utterly wiped out a 10-girl unit). The Deathwing Knights, too, could have put the hurt on with a first turn charge out of deep strike - So much for Slaanesh being the fastest army! In this game, though, it actually felt like the huge, lumbering terminators really were slower than the lightning fast slaanesh armies!

That's very good to hear. I've been tempted to start a slaanesh army for a while. Sounds like it can work. I'd love to see your list. Pm me?

Zustiur wrote:
That's very good to hear. I've been tempted to start a slaanesh army for a while. Sounds like it can work. I'd love to see your list. Pm me?

Sure, I can PM you the list if you want; alternatively I can post it here.

Either way, it's just a small review of the FAQ in light of an army that was supposedly shot in the foot by it.

It seems most peoples complaints come from competative gunline games mostly, so can you test against a competative gunline list?

I play Dark Angels and can tell you that list is not a competative gunline.

 Formosa wrote:
It seems most peoples complaints come from competative gunline games mostly, so can you test against a competative gunline list?

I play Dark Angels and can tell you that list is not a competative gunline.

I'd be happy to, as soon as the competitive gunline armies stop refusing to play me because of how badly my Slaanesh has crushed them in the past (Fiends not allowing screens to fall back plus the Hysterical Frenzy power meant that it was trivially easy to deal with IG gunlines as Slaanesh. Now I suspect it's only slightly harder without DS). Guard are also very badly hurt by the "Symphony of Pain" power on their big stuff, though it does require clever maneuvering to truly utilize.

This sounds... par for the course.

You said it yourself, normally the stormbolters i.e. the ranged attack would be scary coming in from deep strike. But they didn't.

And it sounds like you fought a casual deepstrike list with a casual deepstrike list so of course you wouldn't notice a difference... you both had your feet taken out from you to begin with.

 Quickjager wrote:
This sounds... par for the course.

You said it yourself, normally the stormbolters i.e. the ranged attack would be scary coming in from deep strike. But they didn't.

And it sounds like you fought a deepstrike list with a deepstrike list so of course you wouldn't notice a difference... you both had your feet taken out from you to begin with.

Which illustrates part of the reason the FAQ isn't a big deal: If two (EDIT: 3, forgot the captain) units in deepstrike is a "deepstrike list" then damn near every list is a deepstrike list. So they all got kneecapped.

Told people they are going to be pleasantly surprised at how this allows games to be played out.

The Dark Angels list is downright awful.

Also if you're running 90+ models you want your opponent deep striking on your doorstep turn 1, it plays right into your hands.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Dark Angels list is downright awful.

Also if you're running 90+ models you want your opponent deep striking on your doorstep turn 1, it plays right into your hands.

So the FAQ was actually good for my opponent, rather than bad!

And neither one of our lists was that good. I was merely seeking to demonstrate that the "sky has not fallen" even for armies that are supposed to be "deep strike or die" like Daemons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The Dark Angels list is downright awful.

Also if you're running 90+ models you want your opponent deep striking on your doorstep turn 1, it plays right into your hands.

So the FAQ was actually good for my opponent, rather than bad!

And neither one of our lists was that good. I was merely seeking to demonstrate that the "sky has not fallen" even for armies that are supposed to be "deep strike or die" like Daemons.

When you have two like minded people running comparable lists, i've found the gaming experience with 8th edition to be fantastic all around. I would wager that you two would have had a solid game together even without this beta rule.

In any case, it's hard to deny that if he took all those points in terminators and brought scout bikes, and tacticals with FW quad-turrets, he would have made a colossal dent in your ladies turn 1.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The Dark Angels list is downright awful.

Also if you're running 90+ models you want your opponent deep striking on your doorstep turn 1, it plays right into your hands.

So the FAQ was actually good for my opponent, rather than bad!

And neither one of our lists was that good. I was merely seeking to demonstrate that the "sky has not fallen" even for armies that are supposed to be "deep strike or die" like Daemons.

When you have two like minded people running comparable lists, i've found the gaming experience with 8th edition to be fantastic all around. I would wager that you two would have had a solid game together even without this beta rule.

In any case, it's hard to deny that if he took all those points in terminators and brought scout bikes, and tacticals with FW quad-turrets, he would have made a colossal dent in your ladies turn 1.

Yes, though doubling down on killing daemonettes isn't really what he needed. Without the 10 Hellblasters and the bikes, Zarakynel and the DP munched on everything else. The regular CC attacks from the Intercessors killed Daemonettes in droves, lol. And the artillery units would have just provided a way for my units to hide in CC since they can't fall back (even after the fiends were dead).

All in all, list tailoring is bad, and I think that the removal of Turn 1 DS makes planning less "oh derp just ds plasma kill the stuff" or whatever and more "wow, I better bring a good mix of things capable in most phases, or else I'll get run down and slain by the thing I can't counter."

EDIT:
The crucial point to take from this anecdote is that first turn charges are still very very possible and therefore combined arms is necessary. Gunlines are not invincible after this FAQ, and in fact less so if they try to bring more firepower and fewer screens.

In my current list iteration i've pulled all of the deep strike out of my list, except throwaway things like Ripper Swarms.

A first turn charge does nothing when it gets caught in Guardsmen or equivalent. For 200 points you can get all the screening you would ever need.

I'm glad I have no imperial guard players in my regular store then

But a TON of marines. Maybe thats why our games are so balanced.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The Dark Angels list is downright awful.

Also if you're running 90+ models you want your opponent deep striking on your doorstep turn 1, it plays right into your hands.

So the FAQ was actually good for my opponent, rather than bad!

And neither one of our lists was that good. I was merely seeking to demonstrate that the "sky has not fallen" even for armies that are supposed to be "deep strike or die" like Daemons.

It demonstrates that in casual games between friends who aren't netdecking tournament lists the game works fine. And that is probably 90% of games.

That is a terrible Dark Angel list though, coming from a DA player

Deathwing Terminators are basically as bad as any other Terminators, and sadly that is very bad right now...

Stux wrote:

It demonstrates that in casual games between friends who aren't netdecking tournament lists the game works fine. And that is probably 90% of games.

Sounds about right.

Played a few games over the weekend.

Found that my opponent got boned really baddly because of the beta deep strike rules and an maelstrom objective that he couldnt get. (was the mission you discard your hand every time)

Also had zero issues charging first turn with nearly my entire army. (not all bikes)

Renegade for life.

I run mostly a gun line army and I'm trying to think how to deal with dark eldar even without T1DS.

Thinking to just run up all my scout units as far up as I can as bait.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT:
The crucial point to take from this anecdote is that first turn charges are still very very possible and therefore combined arms is necessary. Gunlines are not invincible after this FAQ, and in fact less so if they try to bring more firepower and fewer screens.

How you got past 20" pre charge with 20 daemonettes? Proper gunline has like 29" between you and him so even 20" pre charge isn't reliable. That or enough soft screen you wipe them and get shot in return

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT:
The crucial point to take from this anecdote is that first turn charges are still very very possible and therefore combined arms is necessary. Gunlines are not invincible after this FAQ, and in fact less so if they try to bring more firepower and fewer screens.

How you got past 20" pre charge with 20 daemonettes? Proper gunline has like 29" between you and him so even 20" pre charge isn't reliable. That or enough soft screen you wipe them and get shot in return

Are gunlines always deploying all the way back leaving a giant portion of their deployment zone open?

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT:
The crucial point to take from this anecdote is that first turn charges are still very very possible and therefore combined arms is necessary. Gunlines are not invincible after this FAQ, and in fact less so if they try to bring more firepower and fewer screens.

How you got past 20" pre charge with 20 daemonettes? Proper gunline has like 29" between you and him so even 20" pre charge isn't reliable. That or enough soft screen you wipe them and get shot in return

Usually the way I do it is 1) I use Daemonettes as the 2nd wave - Seekers and Fiends and the like charge 26" on average - this includes Zarakynel.

Also 29" between us means they have almost nothing at the edge of their deployment zone, and most weapons are out of range. It also leaves so much of the board that even without first turn charges, I can run forwards, have the pick of the litter as far as terrain to utilize, and then score my objectives because it's incredibly, INCREDIBLY easy to get them when your opponent is making exactly zero effort towards controlling the board.

Yeah I had a similar experience with my Khorne against Eldar.

Normally, I'd have nonsense popping up in my backfield TURN ONE shooting anything nice to smithereens. Now? My opponent has to think about dropping backfield with a bunch of angry daemons hurtling torwards them.

I think something the interwebz forgot is us assault armies never were worried about the static gun lines, we were already dealing with the crap in the opponents backfield. It was all the OTHER nonsense that broke us apart late game. The scions that immediately murdered my skull cannons. The eldar that infiltrated and mass murdered my backline. The oblits dropping whatever stupid amount of shots they put out into my warlord.

Now it's much easier to blanket the table in deep strike covering units just like when I went first instead of second.

It was always the after effects of the DS'ing shooting units that ripped me apart as dedicated assault army, not the static gunlines. (There will always be that lol.)

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

EDIT:
The crucial point to take from this anecdote is that first turn charges are still very very possible and therefore combined arms is necessary. Gunlines are not invincible after this FAQ, and in fact less so if they try to bring more firepower and fewer screens.

How you got past 20" pre charge with 20 daemonettes? Proper gunline has like 29" between you and him so even 20" pre charge isn't reliable. That or enough soft screen you wipe them and get shot in return

Um, you don't do that, because that's highly inadequate screening.

A tank is about 5" long. At minimum your infantry need 3" between them and the tanks, and that buys you 1 turn. You ideally want another line of riflemen 3" in front of the first line, which brings you to 24".

 sfshilo wrote:
Yeah I had a similar experience with my Khorne against Eldar.

Normally, I'd have nonsense popping up in my backfield TURN ONE shooting anything nice to smithereens. Now? My opponent has to think about dropping backfield with a bunch of angry daemons hurtling torwards them.

I think something the interwebz forgot is us assault armies never were worried about the static gun lines, we were already dealing with the crap in the opponents backfield. It was all the OTHER nonsense that broke us apart late game. The scions that immediately murdered my skull cannons. The eldar that infiltrated and mass murdered my backline. The oblits dropping whatever stupid amount of shots they put out into my warlord.

Now it's much easier to blanket the table in deep strike covering units just like when I went first instead of second.

It was always the after effects of the DS'ing shooting units that ripped me apart as dedicated assault army, not the static gunlines. (There will always be that lol.)

Yeah, this tends to be the impression I am learning as well!

Given slanessh is one of the few armies with reliable first turn charges, this is not at all a good anecdote for 'how will the FAQ affect CC armies that relied on DS'.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Given slanessh is one of the few armies with reliable first turn charges, this is not at all a good anecdote for 'how will the FAQ affect CC armies that relied on DS'.

Slaanesh were also the worst mono-god build because speed was irrelevant when people could DS the important stuff. And they're all part of the "daemons" army, who previously never took Slaanesh because it didn't matter. So why is this bad?

Also somewhere in another thread someone put a list of all the armies still capable of trivial 1st turn charges and it was like 8 or 9 of them, without daemons.

It's great for slaanesh, but for the rest? A trivial 1st turn charge with one unit hardly equals a powerful close combat army.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
It's great for slaanesh, but for the rest? A trivial 1st turn charge with one unit hardly equals a powerful close combat army.

*shrug* I don't know what that person was considering, if it was more than one unit or not. You can go check out the thread yourself if you have a problem with the claim.