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2018/05/17 15:28:51
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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So you have the following races:
Eldar = Space Elves
Dark Eldar = Space Dark Elves
Orks = Space Orcs
Necrons = Space Tomb Kings
Tyranids = Space Sea Monsters
etc...
But then you have the Abhumans and Transhumans:
Blood Angels = Space Vampires
Space Wolves = Space Werewolves
Ratlings = Space Halfings
Ogryn = Space Ogres
Squats = Space Dwarves
So why did GW decide that some Fantasy races deserved to be their own 40k Xenos Race while others were relegated to Sub Species of Humans and Adeptus Astartes?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/17 17:28:20
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2018/05/17 15:33:09
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Space Orks and Space Elves were there from day one as were Ogryns, Ratling and Squats
Marine Vampires were a bit later
Marine werewolves much later.
The Marine ones - especially recently have exploded into self parody in order to constantly self justify their own existence and sell new models to those followers of those armies (at the expense of other ranges).
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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2018/05/17 15:42:55
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Powerful Ushbati
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My guess would be that because Fantasy was their first game, this was just your classic "80s" port into space. Likely the players and modelers who would buy their Fantasy line, would be the exact same people to buy their new space line. Keeping it familiar makes good business sense.
Ironically it worked out a little too well, with Fantasy taking a back seat to 40K for the last 30+ years. 40K is definitely one of the most unique settings I've come across before.
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2018/05/17 16:35:24
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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40k kind of started as a semi-parody as fantasy IN SPACE! Fantasy races are there because half the gimmick was seeing races you semi-know in a new setting.
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2018/05/17 16:43:27
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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This is the whole reason I stick with 40K and cannot stand Warmahordes. For all its "originality" Warmahordes is just too foreign. And I don't much like steam-punk.
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2018/05/17 17:27:35
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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I think my point might have gotten lost in how I worded it. I meant, how come Dwarves, Halflings, etc are not their own Xenos race?
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2018/05/17 17:54:47
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Battleship Captain
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Because they're 'just' short humans, tall humans, fat humans, etc in a way orcs - green skin and tusks - aren't.
You could argue Eldar (Dark Eldar didn't exist until 3rd edition) could have been a human subspecies too, and to an extent they were; in 1st edition humans and eldar could interbreed and there was a half-eldar ultramarine named in the background, if you can believe that now.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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2018/05/17 18:02:54
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Because 40k started off as Warhammer Fantasy in space. WHFB was GW's first game and their main one back then. Necrons weren't space tomb kings per se. Whilst they did have have an Egyptian theme, they also took inspiration from other forms of cthonic / sepuchral horror (Grim Reaper, Xipe Xotec, Spyders, wraiths, etc), as well as a healthy dose of terminator, cybermen, etc. It was only after 5th ed that GW started beating the undead egyptian horse. Likewise, Tyranids have more to do with the idea of a locust swarm / typical alien invasion than sea monsters. Yes, there's a hive fleet called Kraken, but that's more to do with it being a big monster than it living in the sea.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/17 18:07:28
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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2018/05/17 18:24:48
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Second Story Man
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Easy Answer, by that time 40k came up as Fantasy in Space, Dwarfs, Halfings and Ogres were part of the Fantasy Empire Army
Imperium was Empire in Space it was just natural that Halflings, Ogres and Dwarfs were part of that Empire too
And Necrons started as Chaos Robots
And Tyrandis were not a Fantasy Faction in Space but a mix of Starship Troopers and Alien
The same as Navigators and a lot of Backgrund was taken from Dune
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2018/05/17 18:27:28
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Ogres weren't part of the Empire though. They were mercenaries. Ditto for Dwarves; they were allies, not imperials.
That said, Squats weren't really part of the Imperium either. They were more like an enclave.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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2018/05/17 18:47:29
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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kodos wrote:Easy Answer, by that time 40k came up as Fantasy in Space, Dwarfs, Halfings and Ogres were part of the Fantasy Empire Army
Imperium was Empire in Space it was just natural that Halflings, Ogres and Dwarfs were part of that Empire too
And Necrons started as Chaos Robots
And Tyrandis were not a Fantasy Faction in Space but a mix of Starship Troopers and Alien
The same as Navigators and a lot of Backgrund was taken from Dune
kodos wrote:Easy Answer, by that time 40k came up as Fantasy in Space, Dwarfs, Halfings and Ogres were part of the Fantasy Empire Army
Imperium was Empire in Space it was just natural that Halflings, Ogres and Dwarfs were part of that Empire too
And Necrons started as Chaos Robots
And Tyrandis were not a Fantasy Faction in Space but a mix of Starship Troopers and Alien
The same as Navigators and a lot of Backgrund was taken from Dune
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ogres weren't part of the Empire though. They were mercenaries. Ditto for Dwarves; they were allies, not imperials.
That said, Squats weren't really part of the Imperium either. They were more like an enclave.
This is what I was looking for.
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2018/05/17 18:53:41
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Second Story Man
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ogres weren't part of the Empire though. They were mercenaries. Ditto for Dwarves; they were allies, not imperials.
Yes for ogres although mercenray ogres coming later were different, and dwarfs were imperial als mentioned for living in Reikland
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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2018/05/17 18:55:07
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Perhaps it was to limit the amount of faction in its infancy.
you wouldnt need to dedicate molds to entire armies of ratlings or orgryns.
its probably enitrly possible to do it now but back then probably not so much.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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2018/05/18 00:20:48
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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[RE: OP]
Because it was the 80’s, and many choices made then seem silly today.
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2018/05/18 00:32:27
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Confessor Of Sins
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And 40K was more of a parody (of everything the writers thought cool) than a serious setting. The penalty for almost anything in the Imperium was death, but if you were lucky you could get off the hook for littering or late library books with a lifetime assignment to the Imperial Guard.
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2018/05/23 14:36:30
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Only if you had that late library book accidentally.
Dwarves and halflings (and sometimes ogres) always seem closer to humans than orcs and elves, in pretty much any post-Tolkien fantasy. That's presumably why they became Abhumans rather than "proper" alien races.
It's not a perfect mapping from 3rd edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles to Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader; there's no Skaven or undead, and Tyranids aren't a reflection of something from WFB. mortal followers of Chaos weren't present, either. Mutants were described as resulting from environmental pollution rather than magic, and while there were a variety of warp entities (daemons, Enslavers and the psychneumon wasp thing), none of them were described as "chaotic". RT did have vampires, though. And carnivorous face flannels.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 14:41:07
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2018/05/23 15:20:10
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Fixture of Dakka
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They have since added Tomb Kings though.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2018/05/23 15:35:14
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Dakka Veteran
Lincoln, UK
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Space Slann were a thing too, and they had their own army in Fantasy.
Kinda miss the little doods...
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2018/05/23 17:21:18
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Momotaro wrote:Space Slann were a thing too, and they had their own army in Fantasy.
Kinda miss the little doods...
Space dinosaurs ftw. As I recall they where the living descendants of the old ones. Wish they where still around.
Concerning Necrons they used to be more or less C’thulu in space. They where full of lovecraftian references, like how the C’tan where sleeping “beyond the gates of Vaul” (I may remember the name wrong but it was a straight up lovecraft entity) and how their masters where unstoppable star gods. Basically use as to be undead C’thulu in space.
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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2018/05/25 15:24:56
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them their own?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Galef wrote:
This is the whole reason I stick with 40K and cannot stand Warmahordes. For all its "originality" Warmahordes is just too foreign. And I don't much like steam-punk.
WMH ain't steampunk. It's your stereotypical D&D setting in the midst of an industrial revolution. Or as they put it - "Full metal fantasy". Much like grimdark is to 40k.
They pretty much took what 40k did originally with taking familiar fantasy tropes and doing their own spin on them so I don't quite understand what makes it unfamiliar.
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Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. |
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2018/05/25 15:39:59
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Abel
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Rogue Trader was a very tongue in cheek port of Warhammer Fantasy into space. It was "Grim Dark" not because of it's gritty, dark age setting of the future, but in the style of Grimm's Stories. It was full of humor, and did not even come close to taking itself seriously (Random Chapters of Space Marines, deodorant grav tanks, Dwarves riding gravbikes, ummm... could go on but you should get the picture).
GW basically ported Fantasy into space... 40,000 years into the future. It was a lark. I doubt the game designers at the time ever thought that 40K Space Marines would become so popular or that 40K would come to dominate their sales.
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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2018/05/29 09:23:35
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Warhammer Fantasy from early days had sci-fi elements, with rules for finding crashed space ship or sci fi weapons as chaos gifts.
IIRC the original plan was to product some sprues of sci fi weapons but that plan was quickly abandoned as the game grew into its own thing. But mixing models was always encouraged the original IG Ogryn and beastmen only had 1 or 2 proper 40k models the rest were fantasy.
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2018/05/29 23:24:45
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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White Dwarf 93 wrote:
The Warhammer 40,000 background is an extension of the Warhammer game series, linking the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay games into a complete background.
The WFB world was basically just one planet within the Imperium and for a long time after this idea was abandoned by Games Workshop they put a few easter eggs in as a but of fun, an example being the power fist that could be obtained as part of the Albion campaign.
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Be Pure!
Be Vigilant!
BEHAVE!
Show me your god and I'll send you a warhead because my god's bigger than your god. |
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2018/05/30 04:03:56
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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[Pedantic] The WFB world was a feral world on the fringe of the Eye of Terror, it was not part of the Imperium [/pedantic]
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2018/05/30 06:56:32
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Sigmar was one of the lost primarchs!
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His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. |
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2018/05/30 09:12:59
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Fixture of Dakka
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But getting back to the actual question - why are so many of the "fantasy" races abhumans instead of distinct aliens - I think it was just to show the variety of human civilisation. Remember, the main focus of 40k is the Impierum, and even more so in the beginning. The aliens were there for a bit of flavour and variety around the edges. Ogryns and Squats and Ratlings (and Navigators) are there as the old "adapt colonists to suit their new home" trope. It's going right back to Wells' Morlocks and Eloi in The Time Machine and Huxley's Alphas, Betas and Gammas in Brave New World. It demonstrates that the Imperium is so vast and ancient that there's been time for humanity to evolve different (sub-)species. Add in some late 80s fear of nuclear fallout to provide the really wacky mutants and you're golden.
(and beastmen were mutated humans in Warhammer fantasy, so that's nothing new in 40k)
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2018/05/30 10:39:02
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Whiterun
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AndrewGPaul wrote:But getting back to the actual question - why are so many of the "fantasy" races abhumans instead of distinct aliens - I think it was just to show the variety of human civilisation. Remember, the main focus of 40k is the Impierum, and even more so in the beginning. The aliens were there for a bit of flavour and variety around the edges. Ogryns and Squats and Ratlings (and Navigators) are there as the old "adapt colonists to suit their new home" trope. It's going right back to Wells' Morlocks and Eloi in The Time Machine and Huxley's Alphas, Betas and Gammas in Brave New World. It demonstrates that the Imperium is so vast and ancient that there's been time for humanity to evolve different (sub-)species. Add in some late 80s fear of nuclear fallout to provide the really wacky mutants and you're golden.
(and beastmen were mutated humans in Warhammer fantasy, so that's nothing new in 40k)
Its kinda sad actually, we barely ever really get to see any of that supposed variaty of cultures and ethnicities. There are barely any adaptions to different planets, everyone either just modern day looking humans or a small selection of abhumans. I guess its just geedubs not bothering with anything that doesnt have a model to sell, but its still a shame.
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Full of Power |
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2018/05/30 11:40:16
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Its kinda sad actually, we barely ever really get to see any of that supposed variaty of cultures and ethnicities. There are barely any adaptions to different planets, everyone either just modern day looking humans or a small selection of abhumans. I guess its just geedubs not bothering with anything that doesnt have a model to sell, but its still a shame.
Also the Imperium became EVEN MORE intolerant after 2nd edition with Beastmen, squats and mutants disappearing more or less. One of the BRBs (6th edition?) had an appendix listing some human variant including squats and catgirls but it's still limited to small nods.
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2018/05/30 20:20:47
Subject: Re:Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Tamwulf wrote:Rogue Trader was a very tongue in cheek port of Warhammer Fantasy into space. It was "Grim Dark" not because of it's gritty, dark age setting of the future, but in the style of Grimm's Stories. It was full of humor, and did not even come close to taking itself seriously (Random Chapters of Space Marines, deodorant grav tanks, Dwarves riding gravbikes, ummm... could go on but you should get the picture).
GW basically ported Fantasy into space... 40,000 years into the future. It was a lark. I doubt the game designers at the time ever thought that 40K Space Marines would become so popular or that 40K would come to dominate their sales.
Agreed, except for the attempted retconning of “grimdark” to be derived from Grimm. It’s quite famously from “In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war”.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/05/31 02:37:49
Subject: Why did GW decide to distribute Fantasy races across the Imperium instead of make them Xenos?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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Businesses make decisions based on what will make money. They (rightly) surmised there wasn’t enough player interest to support a whole line of Ogryns or ratlings or squats, but that there was enough to support Eldar. I think that was surely true then and this has been borne out by the fact that even with all the current playerbase and sub factions today, they have yet to release more than a handful of kits for those three abhuman types combined in the last 30 years. They want them in the universe as a kit but not a separate race with its own faction so they made them part of the empire. They then had to be abhumans rather than aliens to fit with the setting and story of what the empire is.
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