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Hi all, got a question as in the title - who wins? The Custodes stratagem which means they fight before even other charging units, or the Foul Blightspawn's Revolting stench, making the Death Guard player choose the first unit to fight ( as it is his turn)?

ThulsaDoom wrote:
Hi all, got a question as in the title - who wins? The Custodes stratagem which means they fight before even other charging units, or the Foul Blightspawn's Revolting stench, making the Death Guard player choose the first unit to fight ( as it is his turn)?

Custodes wins. Revolting Stench affects units that charged and units that fight first as though they charged, making them fight as though they didn't charge. The Swooping Dive stratagem doesn't make them fight as though they charged, they are even more Special Snowflake and fight even before units that have charged.

So the Revolting Stench still affects the Custodes, making them fight as though they didn't charge, but the Custodes special rule lets them fight before even charging units, independent of the normal charge mechanic.

Uh, I disagree.

To quote foul blightspawn:

Enemy units that charged this turn and are within 7" of this model at the start of the Fight phase are struck by a stench so foul that they falter, losing their impetus. Such a unit does not get to fight first in the Fight phase, but can be chosen to fight like other units that did not charge. This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged.

Stooping Dive:

Use this stratagem at the end of your opponent's Charge phase. Choose and ADEPTUS CUSTODES BIKER unit from your army that is within 12" of an enemy unit. You can declare a charge with that unit as if it were your Charge phase. If the unit's charge is successful, that unit fights before all other units in the subsequent Fight phase - even before charging units.

Custodes bike units which have used Stooping Dive still have charged during that turn and thus do not get to fight first in the Fight phase, no matter why they fight first. In addition, models that did not charge, but have an ability to have them fight first as if they were charging are also affected.

So the first part already cancels the "fight first" bonus of the stratagem, so it's irrelevant whether the rule makes them fight as if charging or not.

 Jidmah wrote:
Uh, I disagree.

To quote foul blightspawn:

Enemy units that charged this turn and are within 7" of this model at the start of the Fight phase are struck by a stench so foul that they falter, losing their impetus. Such a unit does not get to fight first in the Fight phase, but can be chosen to fight like other units that did not charge. This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged.

Stooping Dive:

Use this stratagem at the end of your opponent's Charge phase. Choose and ADEPTUS CUSTODES BIKER unit from your army that is within 12" of an enemy unit. You can declare a charge with that unit as if it were your Charge phase. If the unit's charge is successful, that unit fights before all other units in the subsequent Fight phase - even before charging units.

Custodes bike units which have used Stooping Dive still have charged during that turn and thus do not get to fight first in the Fight phase, no matter why they fight first. In addition, models that did not charge, but have an ability to have them fight first as if they were charging are also affected.

So the first part already cancels the "fight first" bonus of the stratagem, so it's irrelevant whether the rule makes them fight as if charging or not.

It's a fine point, but Foul Blightness says it also effects units "that would enable them to fight first as if they had charged", but Stooping Dive is not a case that fits "as if they had charged." They go before anyone, including chargers, so it's not a go first as if they had charged. By pure RAW Stooping Dive would take precedence. It may be GW's intention that Foul blightspawn would affect Stooping Dive; if so it will most likely be FAQ'd if someone sends a question about it to GW.

 doctortom wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Uh, I disagree.

To quote foul blightspawn:

Enemy units that charged this turn and are within 7" of this model at the start of the Fight phase are struck by a stench so foul that they falter, losing their impetus. Such a unit does not get to fight first in the Fight phase, but can be chosen to fight like other units that did not charge. This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged.

Stooping Dive:

Use this stratagem at the end of your opponent's Charge phase. Choose and ADEPTUS CUSTODES BIKER unit from your army that is within 12" of an enemy unit. You can declare a charge with that unit as if it were your Charge phase. If the unit's charge is successful, that unit fights before all other units in the subsequent Fight phase - even before charging units.

Custodes bike units which have used Stooping Dive still have charged during that turn and thus do not get to fight first in the Fight phase, no matter why they fight first. In addition, models that did not charge, but have an ability to have them fight first as if they were charging are also affected.

So the first part already cancels the "fight first" bonus of the stratagem, so it's irrelevant whether the rule makes them fight as if charging or not.

It's a fine point, but Foul Blightness says it also effects units "that would enable them to fight first as if they had charged", but Stooping Dive is not a case that fits "as if they had charged." They go before anyone, including chargers, so it's not a go first as if they had charged. By pure RAW Stooping Dive would take precedence. It may be GW's intention that Foul blightspawn would affect Stooping Dive; if so it will most likely be FAQ'd if someone sends a question about it to GW.

I have to disagree. "Such a unit does not get to fight first in the fight phase, ... This ability ALSO affects...." The ALSO, here, means both things are true.
A. Unit does not get to fight first...
B. Even if they have an ability that lets them fight as if they charged.

I would say the Foul Blightspawn's ability takes precedence, because it specifically says the unit does not get to fight first. When we have two abilities, one that says can and the other says can't, which one takes precedence?

 Octopoid wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Uh, I disagree.

To quote foul blightspawn:

Enemy units that charged this turn and are within 7" of this model at the start of the Fight phase are struck by a stench so foul that they falter, losing their impetus. Such a unit does not get to fight first in the Fight phase, but can be chosen to fight like other units that did not charge. This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged.

Stooping Dive:

Use this stratagem at the end of your opponent's Charge phase. Choose and ADEPTUS CUSTODES BIKER unit from your army that is within 12" of an enemy unit. You can declare a charge with that unit as if it were your Charge phase. If the unit's charge is successful, that unit fights before all other units in the subsequent Fight phase - even before charging units.

Custodes bike units which have used Stooping Dive still have charged during that turn and thus do not get to fight first in the Fight phase, no matter why they fight first. In addition, models that did not charge, but have an ability to have them fight first as if they were charging are also affected.

So the first part already cancels the "fight first" bonus of the stratagem, so it's irrelevant whether the rule makes them fight as if charging or not.

It's a fine point, but Foul Blightness says it also effects units "that would enable them to fight first as if they had charged", but Stooping Dive is not a case that fits "as if they had charged." They go before anyone, including chargers, so it's not a go first as if they had charged. By pure RAW Stooping Dive would take precedence. It may be GW's intention that Foul blightspawn would affect Stooping Dive; if so it will most likely be FAQ'd if someone sends a question about it to GW.

I have to disagree. "Such a unit does not get to fight first in the fight phase, ... This ability ALSO affects...." The ALSO, here, means both things are true.
A. Unit does not get to fight first...
B. Even if they have an ability that lets them fight as if they charged.

I would say the Foul Blightspawn's ability takes precedence, because it specifically says the unit does not get to fight first. When we have two abilities, one that says can and the other says can't, which one takes precedence?

The full statement for the "also" is "This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged."

Note the bolded section - it's not a blanket affecting abilities that enable them to fight first, it's for fighting first as if they had charged. We're not dealing with a situation where it's as if they had charged, since they get to go even before chargers.

I would not be surprised at all if the intention is what you describe and that they meant for it to affect even Stooping Fire. As the RAW stands now, however, Foul Blightspawn wouldn't affect Stooping Fire as that does not enable units to fight as if they had charged.

Enemy units that charged this turn and are within 7" of this model at the start of the Fight phase are struck by a stench so foul that they falter, losing their impetus. Such a unit does not get to fight first in the Fight phase, but can be chosen to fight like other units that did not charge. This ability also affects units who have abilities that would enable them to fight first as if the had charged.

Use this stratagem at the end of your opponent's Charge phase. Choose and ADEPTUS CUSTODES BIKER unit from your army that is within 12" of an enemy unit. You can declare a charge with that unit as if it were your Charge phase. If the unit's charge is successful, that unit fights before all other units in the subsequent Fight phase - even before charging units.

The rule is blanket affecting all units that have charged. The custodes unit must charge to use the stooping dive stratagem.
Any unit that has charged does not get to fight first, for any reason.

If the stratagem would just let them fight first without any charges going on, you'd be right. However, since the custodes unit charged during the turn in question, the "also"-statement is irrelevant to the answer.

Yep, the also is irrelevant

They charged, therefore they do not get to fight first. End of. The also clause is irrelevant.